How many marathons a year?

Running Bing

Basically Im looking for some advice on the best way to achieve long term goals.

Ran my first marathon last month in 4 hrs 15. I would like to get a BQ time within four years.

My question is to achieve that do people recommend two marathons a year or one?

I was planning on running Paris next spring and then Dublin again in the autumn but now I am wondering would I be better concentrating on shorter stuff first and then following a good long training programme for Dublin.


What way do others approach this? I know more experienced runners may be more comfortable running even more than two marathons a year but as a beginner what would people recommend as the best course of action to improve?

hunnymonster

Almost anyone can manage 2 marathons a year with enough time for shorter stuff as well. What age/gender are you? Will you move up a Boston age group in the next 4 years? what training plan did you use for Dublin. (sorry if these questions have been answered elsewhere)

Running Bing

hunnymonster wrote: »

Almost anyone can manage 2 marathons a year with enough time for shorter stuff as well. What age/gender are you? Will you move up a Boston age group in the next 4 years? what training plan did you use for Dublin. (sorry if these questions have been answered elsewhere)

Hi HM,

22 year old male, started training in June using the plan in this book. As you can gather not an ideal preparation but it got me around. Very focused on just getting the basic endurance needed (four days a week, peaked at 38 mpw, no speedwork/hillwork/tempo runs) so I reckon I can improve a lot.

Peckham

I don't think there is a straightforward answer to this question. Two marathons in a year is a big ask. There is maybe enough recovery time between them if they are 6 months apart, but there is also the psychological side of things in terms of constantly being in marathon training mode.

At 22 years of age, I wouldn't personally rush into doing a lot of marathons. You've a lot of time ahead of you to produce big performances, so maybe you should take it slowly and build up towards them by using 10 mile/half-marathons to get the speed up.

Only you will know what your body/mind is able for.

cfitz

Hi,

I took the liberty of going to the Coaching Template to check your current situation. Here is what I would suggest:

Forget about marathons for 2009. Check out the milestones that Racing Flat put up on another thread and aim for the 1 mile up to 5k targets. Even though you are way off them now it's possible to make great progress in the early stages of training. Don't race anything further than 5 miles - concentrate on the shorter distances. Also, you could probably do with losing some weight, but I think that will come with the training so you may not need to worry about that. Come summertime you should be running 5 if not 6 times per week every week.

Depending on how you get on, you can start to move up to the longer distances and you'll still have plenty of time to get some marathons in before your 4 year target.

I'm no expert but that's what I'd suggest. I think it's important that you get used to running fluently and fast before you move up to the longer distances.

Running Bing

Peckham wrote: »

At 22 years of age, I wouldn't personally rush into doing a lot of marathons. You've a lot of time ahead of you to produce big performances, so maybe you should take it slowly and build up towards them by using 10 mile/half-marathons to get the speed up.

Only you will know what your body/mind is able for.

Yep, thats what Im thinking at the moment Peckham. I know people tend to peak at the marathon later in life and I would not want to be burned out by running too many races at that stage.

Forget about marathons for 2009. Check out the milestones that Racing Flat put up on another thread and aim for the 1 mile up to 5k targets. Even though you are way off them now it's possible to make great progress in the early stages of training. Don't race anything further than 5 miles - concentrate on the shorter distances.

Yeah I must say those milestones did perk my interest. Im also faster at shorter distances at the moment (for example my unofficial mile time and 5k times put me a fair bit faster than the time it actually took me, but I suppose that is normal for someone of my age and experience).

Also, you could probably do with losing some weight, but I think that will come with the training so you may not need to worry about that. Come summertime you should be running 5 if not 6 times per week every week.

Cheeky bugger:D


Your right though and Im way ahead of you. Difficult to shift it with the student lifestyle and my diet is ****e at the moment so its an area that I will definately concentrate on and work at (for example I did not lose one pound over the whole of my marathon training:rolleyes:)

Depending on how you get on, you can start to move up to the longer distances and you'll still have plenty of time to get some marathons in before your 4 year target.

I'm no expert but that's what I'd suggest. I think it's important that you get used to running fluently and fast before you move up to the longer distances.

Makes sense cfitz.


Really useful advice here fella's. Cheers.

hunnymonster

.

Krusty_Clown

It's a question that has been bothering me recently. I was planning on running two marathons next year that I would take seriously:
Edinburgh - at the end of May
Berlin - end of September.
However, a friend has asked me to run the Connemarathon with them, at the end of March, so I was going to do that too (approx 40 mins slower than my personal best). Also, I have a feeling that when Dublin comes around again, what with the 30th anniversary, I will probably end up signing up for that two, again albeit at a more leisurely pace.

I know everyone's different, but is this a really bad idea? The plan was to do Connemara as part of training for Edinburgh, then have a whole four months to work on my BQ if Edinburgh doesn't work out. Then run Dublin as a leisurely race. I have approx. 5 minutes to make up, to get Boston Qualifier time. I'm getting older, so don't feel the same need to push for the shorter distance results (except for the Aware 10k in December).

Woddle

I think 2 is fine a year but make one your main priority. For 2009 I'll be doing Paris and I'll be using a 12 week program from Pfitz & Scott for this but I'm doing it for 2 reasons firstly I'll be celebrating my 30th and secondly I need short term goals to focus on. I would like to see some improvement on my Dublin time but Berlin in September will be my main focus of the year. The majority of my training of 2009 will be for this marathon. And if I manage to knock of a few of racing flats targets along the way, great.
But if you like doing marathons, then do them but if you want to improve as a runner and try reach your potential, you should probably listen to cfitz.

jrar

Woddle wrote: »

I think 2 is fine a year but make one your main priority. For 2009 I'll be doing Paris and I'll be using a 12 week program from Pfitz & Scott for this but I'm doing it for 2 reasons firstly I'll be celebrating my 30th and secondly I need short term goals to focus on. I would like to see some improvement on my Dublin time but Berlin in September will be my main focus of the year. The majority of my training of 2009 will be for this marathon. And if I manage to knock of a few of racing flats targets along the way, great.
But if you like doing marathons, then do them but if you want to improve as a runner and try reach your potential, you should probably listen to cfitz.

Woddle, if I recall correctly, did you not do a sequence of marathons this year in relatively quick succession ? With regard to doing Berlin and then Dublin, what training did you do to allow you to peak and taper for Berlin whilst still being in a state of readiness to do Dublin 4 weeks later ?

Woddle

jrar wrote: »

Woddle, if I recall correctly, did you not do a sequence of marathons this year in relatively quick succession ? With regard to doing Berlin and then Dublin, what training did you do to allow you to peak and taper for Berlin whilst still being in a state of readiness to do Dublin 4 weeks later ?

I did 3 in 9 weeks, the first being Longford which was my main goal when I started training but before I had even done Longford I decided on Dublin and then Berlin. After Longford I kept ticking over at 20 miles a week but with one week at 40. And after Berlin I did a 10 mile week followed by a 44,36 &12.
But I'm glad I did it but never again I think I'm still in recovery at the moment as my motivation is quite low. And I have alot of what if questions, like how fast could I have done Dublin if I didn't do the other 2

And the types of training was 2 races a 5k and a 4.4 mile xcountry and I also did a few 6x800 and the rest where just very easy runs.

TheRoadRunner

Hi

The most I have ever done is 2 in a year with 6 months in between. The fist time I did it was in 2002. These were my first and second marathons and I managed to knock 30 minutes off the first one. In 2003 I did 2 again, each one a pb. However last year I did 2 again, the first was a pb the second wasn't. The second really took an awful lot out of me also.

I think 2 a year is reasonable but once you get close to your optimal its hard to always run a pb. I think quality over quantity comes into play then. Well for me anyway. From now on I will only really target 1 marathon a year. I may do more but I can't see myself trying to run pbs in both !

I would agree with some of the above posts. I'd concentrate on some of the shorter stuff and maybe only consider 1 marathon a year. You are only 22 so the marathon may not be your best event either so try all the other distances first.

Best of luck either way

TheRoadRunner

Woddle wrote: »

I did 3 in 9 weeks,

Holy crap Batman. I'm sure I've read your times for these elsewhere but how did the times deviate between the 3 ?

shels4ever

Think i'll do 2 next year myself but after that I won't do one for a few years.

Woddle

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Holy crap Batman. I'm sure I've read your times for these elsewhere but how did the times deviate between the 3 ?

Longford 3:55
Berlin 3:41
Dublin 3:37

TheRoadRunner

Woddle wrote: »

Longford 3:55
Berlin 3:41
Dublin 3:37

Holy super crap batman :eek:

You must be wrecked. 3 pbs in 9 weeks in any event is impressive. But 3 pbs in a marathon is great. I thought your Dublin time was going to be the slowest !

MarieC

Writing stuff here sometimes feels like being a child again and having to tell my parents if I did something wrong, or actually its more like going to confession..... (Like I didnt tell ye that I went to a wedding on the saturday before the Dublin Marathon)

The next confession is that Im toying with the idea of Connemara on March 22nd, and Paris 2 weeks later.............

chatoon

For those thinking of doing the Paris Marathon - word of warning, entries are flying in for it, and there are only just over 1,300 spaces left...I've noted it's filling up at a rate of about 1,000 a day, so get your entries in very soon...!

Slogger Jogger

I wish I discovered running and marathons in my 20s and not my mid 30s
I personally favour the multiple marathon approach, but thats just me.
04: Did 1
05: Did 1
06: Did 5.
07: Did 5.
08: Did 4. Phsychologically it was 5 when the threepeaks race was factored in. I've PBed in successive years too so its worked for me.

How Strange

I'm also aiming for two marathons next year; one at the end of April and Dublin in Oct.

Slogger Jogger

MarieC wrote: »

Writing stuff here sometimes feels like being a child again and having to tell my parents if I did something wrong, or actually its more like going to confession..... (Like I didnt tell ye that I went to a wedding on the saturday before the Dublin Marathon)

The next confession is that Im toying with the idea of Connemara on March 22nd, and Paris 2 weeks later.............

Hi MarieC,
I did that double 2 years ago - same thing, 2 week break - and it worked out fine. I ran 3.30 in Paris having not done so well in Conn. Both are fab though.

Racing Flat

Doing too many marathons brings Seb Coe's saying to mind - 'long slow running makes a slow long runner'....And also, in Catherina mcKiernan's book she says she reckons people have only 3 really good marathons in them. You can do more, but only 3 really good ones where you give the training your all and you do really well.

The problem with marathons as I see it is that you have to take a fair break after, about a month of easy running. Added to this, 3 taper weeks, means nearly 2 months per marathon is non-quality work. Thus, when you go back to training gaain, it takes a while to get back to the previous level, so there's a succession of cycles of getting really fit (for long distances) but then deconditioning again somewhat - maybe 2 steps forward, one step back. You don't have to do this for other distances - a week off once or twice a year, easy weeks in your training will suffice, but you're continually increaisng your training stimulus.

So if you want to do a really good marathon, I'd say take as long as you need to get your half marathon time where you want it (by first getting your 5k/10k time etc. where you want it) and then give yourself a good 4 months of marathon specific training.

Peckham

RF has put it more eloquently than I could. I honestly cannot see how people could face into multiple marathons each year and hope to PB at them. Intensity of training is far too high to repeat it time and time again. Would rather do a few at a very high intensity training than many at medium intensity.

Having done 3 marathons, I feel I can PB in one maybe two more. After that it's just running to tick the big city marathons off the list.

shels4ever

Racing Flat wrote: »

Doing too many marathons brings Seb Coe's saying to mind - 'long slow running makes a slow long runner'....And also, in Catherina mcKiernan's book she says she reckons people have only 3 really good marathons in them. You can do more, but only 3 really good ones where you give the training your all and you do really well.

The problem with marathons as I see it is that you have to take a fair break after, about a month of easy running. Added to this, 3 taper weeks, means nearly 2 months per marathon is non-quality work. Thus, when you go back to training gaain, it takes a while to get back to the previous level, so there's a succession of cycles of getting really fit (for long distances) but then deconditioning again somewhat - maybe 2 steps forward, one step back. You don't have to do this for other distances - a week off once or twice a year, easy weeks in your training will suffice, but you're continually increaisng your training stimulus.

So if you want to do a really good marathon, I'd say take as long as you need to get your half marathon time where you want it (by first getting your 5k/10k time etc. where you want it) and then give yourself a good 4 months of marathon specific training.

Ok this has given me something to think about. I planning on a marathon or 2 next year to set me up for a crack at pb's over 5mile nad 10k in 2010. But now i'm not so sure ,

Whats the difference if having a high base mileage phase before a track XC season compared to a marathon. ?
My idea cam form reading Eamon Coghlans book where is did the NY marathon as prep to his sub 4 mile at 41.

He basically had a marathon as his base training the worked on his speed the folloing year. Is there any info out there on how a marathon would reduce speed or the ability to improve again after a marathon , would it jsut take more speed work training to get back to your level?

I do agree with the saying that you have to run fast to run fast, but does a marathon reduce this ability,

Running Bing

shels4ever wrote: »

Ok this has given me something to think about. I planning on a marathon or 2 next year to set me up for a crack at pb's over 5mile nad 10k in 2010. But now i'm not so sure ,

Whats the difference if having a high base mileage phase before a track XC season compared to a marathon. ?
My idea cam form reading Eamon Coghlans book where is did the NY marathon as prep to his sub 4 mile at 41.

He basically had a marathon as his base training the worked on his speed the folloing year. Is there any info out there on how a marathon would reduce speed or the ability to improve again after a marathon , would it jsut take more speed work training to get back to your level?

I do agree with the saying that you have to run fast to run fast, but does a marathon reduce this ability,

You have to remember though Coughlan was a freak who ran 100 mile+ weeks for years at that stage.


I think as a recreational runner it would be very hard to train effectively for both distance and speed. I notice Hal Higdon recommends doing speed work outside of marathon training so you effectively concentrate on speed for part of the year and then go into the marathon programme where he says its hard to train effectively for speed.


Of course I am nowhere near qualified to give advice but thats just my gut feeling on it for the sake of discussion.

cfitz

shels4ever wrote: »

Ok this has given me something to think about. I planning on a marathon or 2 next year to set me up for a crack at pb's over 5mile nad 10k in 2010. But now i'm not so sure ,

Whats the difference if having a high base mileage phase before a track XC season compared to a marathon. ?
My idea cam form reading Eamon Coghlans book where is did the NY marathon as prep to his sub 4 mile at 41.

He basically had a marathon as his base training the worked on his speed the folloing year. Is there any info out there on how a marathon would reduce speed or the ability to improve again after a marathon , would it jsut take more speed work training to get back to your level?

I do agree with the saying that you have to run fast to run fast, but does a marathon reduce this ability,

At the top level people don't seem to mix marathons with shorter distances very well - generally it seems once they move up to marathon they pretty much stay there. If you were careful you could probably do your marathon training with a conscious effort to maintain some speed, things like strides after your runs can help this.

However, I think that you might be better off sticking to the shorter distance for longer. Imagine how much easier marathon training would be for you when you're back in sub-4:30 1500m shape. An efficient running style that is needed to run quickly over short distances (and is easier to improve on while training for shorter distances) is very important for when you want to up your mileage.

shels4ever

cfitz wrote: »

At the top level people don't seem to mix marathons with shorter distances very well - generally it seems once they move up to marathon they pretty much stay there. If you were careful you could probably do your marathon training with a conscious effort to maintain some speed, things like strides after your runs can help this.

However, I think that you might be better off sticking to the shorter distance for longer. Imagine how much easier marathon training would be for you when you're back in sub-4:30 1500m shape. An efficient running style that is needed to run quickly over short distances (and is easier to improve on while training for shorter distances) is very important for when you want to up your mileage.

Thats a good point, my thinking was that a long base phase would get me back my 2010. But I may have to re-think this at the end of jan.

If i do run a sub 4:30 1,500 again i'd retire....

Racing Flat

shels4ever wrote: »

Ok this has given me something to think about. I planning on a marathon or 2 next year to set me up for a crack at pb's over 5mile nad 10k in 2010. But now i'm not so sure ,

Whats the difference if having a high base mileage phase before a track XC season compared to a marathon. ?
My idea cam form reading Eamon Coghlans book where is did the NY marathon as prep to his sub 4 mile at 41.

He basically had a marathon as his base training the worked on his speed the folloing year. Is there any info out there on how a marathon would reduce speed or the ability to improve again after a marathon , would it jsut take more speed work training to get back to your level?

I do agree with the saying that you have to run fast to run fast, but does a marathon reduce this ability,

A marathon will give you a fantastic base for runnning some good 5k/10ks etc. Also, significantly improving your shorter distance times will make marathon training so much easier and may lead to improved performance. So it'll probably work both ways.

What this thread is about though is doing more than 1 marathon a year...I think if you were to do this you may not progress maximally at the shorter distances - just wouldn't get the chance to do the specific speed work.

I think marathon training may well 'slow you down' to a certain extent, but the enhanced endurance will make up for this over shorter distances up to a point. An example in my case - About 2-3weeks before the marathon I did my last interval session of 6 x 1k in close enough to 3.20 and it felt fairly easy. About a month after the marathon I did 5 x 1k in 3.30-3.35. I was fairly surprised at how much slower it was, but at the same time, I think I could do okay in a 5k race, thanks to the endurance, but I wouldn't have a hope over a mile. Another example - when i was not training for a marathon, and doing more shorter speed work, I was doing a mile in 4.50 with a 2.20/2.30 split - the 2.20 felt really easy, but the second half was a real struggle (obviously didn't focus enough on speed endurance, was more focussed on speed, a lesson learnt) whereas this year when I was marathon training I ran a mile in 5.00. The funny thing was my halfway split was 2.30 and I was absolutely hanging - but my second split was 2.30, so I reckon I didn't have the speed but I had the endurance - not sure if that makes sense.

shels4ever

Yep I get it now, cheers for that