Inter Counties and National Juvenile CC

HaileGeb

Any Predictions?

Men:
Senior
Junior
U18
U16
U14


Women:
Senior
Junior
U18
U16
U14

cfitz

It's always hard to keep track of who's in form across the age groups.

Men
Senior - Mark Christie (looked very strong in the Gerry Farnan)
Junior - Michael Mulhare (seems to be a step ahead of Murphy at the minute)
U18 - don't have a clue, Liam Tremble?
U16 - is that guy from Mullingar Shane Fitzsimons in this race? He's pretty good.
U14 - No idea.

Women
Senior - Fionnuala Britton (but if Mary Cullen were to run this it could be a different story)
Junior - Sara Treacy
U18 - Ciara Mageehan
U16 - Mary Mulhare (Mary Ann O'Sullivan will have high hopes here too)
U14 - No idea.


Nearly all my names are from Leinster, I could be missing lots of contenders.

deisefan

Who is running in the junior and senior races in Tramore? What is the pick criteria for the European Cross country?

ss43

cfitz wrote: »

It's always hard to keep track of who's in form across the age groups.

Men
Senior - Mark Christie (looked very strong in the Gerry Farnan)
Junior - Michael Mulhare (seems to be a step ahead of Murphy at the minute)
U18 - don't have a clue, Liam Tremble?
U16 - is that guy from Mullingar Shane Fitzsimons in this race? He's pretty good.
U14 - No idea.

Women
Senior - Fionnuala Britton (but if Mary Cullen were to run this it could be a different story)
Junior - Sara Treacy
U18 - Ciara Mageehan
U16 - Mary Mulhare (Mary Ann O'Sullivan will have high hopes here too)
U14 - No idea.


Nearly all my names are from Leinster, I could be missing lots of contenders.

Fitzsimons is under 14 so he'll probably do well enough there. stephen Attride was very good winning the Leinster u16. He could be one to watch but I don't know what the competition's like from the other provinces.

ss43

deisefan wrote: »

Who is running in the junior and senior races in Tramore? What is the pick criteria for the European Cross country?

Top 3 in each event are selected automatically and the remaining three places are decided by the selection committee.

I'd expect the following athletes not to run but be selected:

Senior: Martin Fagan, Andrew Ledwith Mary Cullen.
Under23: David McCarthy and Ciarán Ó Lionaird
Junior: can't think of any

ecoli

ss43 wrote: »

Top 3 in a each event are selected automatically and the remaining three places are decided by the selection committee.

I'd expect the following athletes not to run but be selected:

Senior: Martin Fagan, Andrew Ledwith Mary Cullen.
Under23: David McCarthy and Ciarán Ó Lionaird
Junior: can't think of any

Rooney may be offered a spot on junior team as he running fairly solid and had good performance at the NCAA Regionals at the weekend aside from that Murphy Mulhare and Flynn no doubt leaving other two spots fairly open

ss43

ecoli wrote: »

Rooney may be offered a spot on junior team as he running fairly solid and had good performance at the NCAA Regionals at the weekend aside from that Murphy Mulhare and Flynn no doubt leaving other two spots fairly open

Rooney's not a junior anymore.

ecoli

ss43 wrote: »

Rooney's not a junior anymore.

Correction i forgot he was 88 not 89

thirtyfoot

Preview in the Indo

ecoli

Pity to see Mulvey out but still should be goos race to see if Christie or Murray can triumph thou Turnbull could suprise as he had an impressive day in Gateshead doubling up doin the 2 races in he space of 2 hours shows he has some amount of strength especially considering the course was an extremely hilly one

thirtyfoot

Looks like Britton is out with a suspected stress fracture. If so, not good news.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

Looks like Britton is out with a suspected stress fracture. If so, not good news.

That's terrible news. She'd be very unlikely to be back in time for Europeans if she has a stress fracture?

Rineanna

Any results from today?

dpo

Al McCormack first, beat Christie and Murray.
Linda Byrne won the womens race.
Craig Murphy won the juniors.

Racing Flat

dpo wrote: »

Al McCormack first, beat Christie and Murray.

:eek: Massive step up. Always nice to see.

okidoki987

Brutal weather for the later races.
Well run on the day but can't figure why there is a €10 charge p.p. in.

whatsupdoc?

Is there anywhere that has the results, pictures etc up yet at this
early stage?

helpisontheway

whatsupdoc? wrote: »

Is there anywhere that has the results, pictures etc up yet at this
early stage?

Results and a few pictures on www.athleticsireland.ie

Racing Flat

okidoki987 wrote: »

but can't figure why there is a €10 charge p.p. in.

I agree. I think this is ridiculous. Might be better if it was free of charge, and when a critical mass of support builds up, parhaps then they could start charging again. Will only serve to put people off as it is IMO.

helpisontheway

Did juvenile and senior athletes have to pay in?If not how did they know what people were competing and who were not?
10 euro is a bit steep especially in the current climate.I would think that the bulk of the spectators were parents of athletes competing so had no choice but to be there which is really taking advantage!!
I also have a serious problem with coaches having to pay an admission fee to any competition where they have an athlete competing.Can you imagine telling Brian Cody that he had to pay for his ticket to coach Kilkenny in the All Ireland final!
Clubs are already paying entry fees of 15euro for inds,20euro for county teams and 25euro for provincial teams.Outside the medals what substancial costs are involved?

whatsupdoc?

From what I saw going in, it was €10 for all adults apart from coaches of the team so at least 90% of the adults had to pay €10 in.
Some of the younger competitios had both parents there and therefore it was costing them €20 plus all the expense to get there.
You did get a programme but they couldn't even fold it for people paying in.
The only expenses I can think of were hire of track, staff costs, medals, ambulance personal.
I felt sorry for the Northerns and other far way place athletics who would have had the expense of an overnight stay to add to the petrol cost.
There was also no coffee facilites in the field where we all were located (HINT COLD weather = people needing hot drinks) and it was an ordeal to go to the toilets.
I suppose it was a result they didn't charge us for parking!
It's hard enough to keep youngsters interested in Athletics with all the other sports around without getting parents hacked off.

helpisontheway

whatsupdoc? wrote: »

From what I saw going in, it was €10 for all adults apart from coaches of the team so at least 90% of the adults had to pay €10 in.
Some of the younger competitios had both parents there and therefore it was costing them €20 plus all the expense to get there.
You did get a programme but they couldn't even fold it for people paying in.
The only expenses I can think of were hire of track, staff costs, medals, ambulance personal.
I felt sorry for the Northerns and other far way place athletics who would have had the expense of an overnight stay to add to the petrol cost.
There was also no coffee facilites in the field where we all were located (HINT COLD weather = people needing hot drinks) and it was an ordeal to go to the toilets.
I suppose it was a result they didn't charge us for parking!
It's hard enough to keep youngsters interested in Athletics with all the other sports around without getting parents hacked off.

Im my clubs head coach and have paid into every national competition i have been to in the last 7 years.I asked once and was told it didnt matter,that i still had to pay!
The fact that this competition was held in Tramore brings up in my opinion the biggest problem facing athletics in Ireland at grass roots level at the moment and thats the huge costs now associated with competing in the sport.I just cant fathom why every national competition isnt held in a central venue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![Maybe in the exception of senior indoors]
Cork for juvenile T+F 2 seasons ago,Antrim last year,C/country ranging from Donegal to Waterford,this seasons juvenile indoors supposed to be in Magharafelt!Madness:mad:

Its affecting all athletes but especially the most talented.One family in my club have 2 very good athletes and they forked out over e5000 to the sport last track season through travelling,accommadation,training gear etc.One of the boys had 2days of Munster Indoors,3days of national indoors,3days of munster outdoors and 4 days of national outdoors and he was still in primary school! Add county competitions,schools competitions,open sports and of course other sports and its quiet obvious that the current structure is not working!The competitions commitee is a joke and they dont have a clue what they are doing.

There needs to be a serious overhaul of our competition structure.I dont claim to have all the answers but i would at least try the following-
1.Age groups at nationals to change to u13/15/17/20 or u14/16/18/20.This will increase competition standards and also reduce numbers allowing competitions to be run over 2days rather than 4!
2.Qualifying times and distances rather than qualifying from province.This will ensure that only athletes of national standard qualify.This then in turn will leave enough athletes at home in our counties to revive open sports.The average athlete is being forgotten as everybody is always away at provincials or nationals and they are at home drifting away from the sport.
3.Central venues!

cfitz

helpisontheway wrote: »

There needs to be a serious overhaul of our competition structure.I dont claim to have all the answers but i would at least try the following-
1.Age groups at nationals to change to u13/15/17/20 or u14/16/18/20.This will increase competition standards and also reduce numbers allowing competitions to be run over 2days rather than 4!
2.Qualifying times and distances rather than qualifying from province.This will ensure that only athletes of national standard qualify.This then in turn will leave enough athletes at home in our counties to revive open sports.The average athlete is being forgotten as everybody is always away at provincials or nationals and they are at home drifting away from the sport.
3.Central venues!

I see the reasoning behind each of those points. But as an athlete:

When I was juvenile I liked having all the age-groups.
Athletes might not get many opportunities to hit qualifying times before the All-Irelands, and if you just take them from the provincial Championships bad weather could lead to a very slow race etc.
I wouldn't like to run the National cross-country in the same place every year.

helpisontheway

cfitz wrote: »

I see the reasoning behind each of those points. But as an athlete:

When I was juvenile I liked having all the age-groups.
Athletes might not get many opportunities to hit qualifying times before the All-Irelands, and if you just take them from the provincial Championships bad weather could lead to a very slow race etc.
I wouldn't like to run the National cross-country in the same place every year.

Unfortunatly too many people LIKE things the way they are and thats why we are not moving forward![Just making a point,you are entitled to express what you like]
I see your point on poor conditions affecting qualifying times/distances but they do it in England and it works for them.Times/distances can also be taken from county events/schools/indoors/even some open sports,ie Leevale.Even allow times/distances to be used from the season before.Im not saying to set unreasonable standards.Just take a look at last years juvenile results and just look at some of the times and distances from athletes who qualified from their province.It was ridiculous.
Also which of the following is more beneficial to an athlete-
John competing u16 and winning the 100m by nearly 10metres in 11.05 which he has done for 3years.Barry competing u17 and doing the same in 11.06
OR John and Barry racing each other with one running 10.95 and the other 10.96?

whatsupdoc?

apart from coaches of the team

That was based on what I saw at the gate when I was paying in, the coach of 1 club walked through the gate with a load of athletes and didn;t pay.
Assumed it was the same for all coaches.

cfitz

helpisontheway wrote: »

Unfortunatly too many people LIKE things the way they are and thats why we are not moving forward![Just making a point,you are entitled to express what you like]
I see your point on poor conditions affecting qualifying times/distances but they do it in England and it works for them.Times/distances can also be taken from county events/schools/indoors/even some open sports,ie Leevale.Even allow times/distances to be used from the season before.Im not saying to set unreasonable standards.Just take a look at last years juvenile results and just look at some of the times and distances from athletes who qualified from their province.It was ridiculous.
Also which of the following is more beneficial to an athlete-
John competing u16 and winning the 100m by nearly 10metres in 11.05 which he has done for 3years.Barry competing u17 and doing the same in 11.06
OR John and Barry racing each other with one running 10.95 and the other 10.96?

Well surely the idea of an Athletics Association is to provide the athletes with what they would like.

Your example about the age groups make sense but you could apply it to any number of age groups - have one National Juvenile 100m Championships race for everyone from 12-18. Send the 32 fastest to Tullamore for heats. You'd have great competition and it'd all be over in a day or two.

ss43

More people in england would lead to more competition and thus more opportunities to get qualifying times. I'm not too aware of what's going on in england but in what way is it working - more people participating, happier participants, higher level of performance (take into account greater population)?


Leevale open sports are grand for getting times but what if the open sports in your area is on a grass or gravel track? There is a shortage of good tracks in the country.

One of the big things that keep people involved in sport is perceived success. More age groups mean me people winning national medals which will increase their confidence and motivation to stick with the sport.

Some people are going to have to travel no matter where it is. If you rotate venues it means different people have to travel each time.

Could you give any more detail about this family who paid over €5000 on two athletes? It seems a bit much. Are you sure they weren't going a bit over the top?

helpisontheway wrote: »

Unfortunatly too many people LIKE things the way they are and thats why we are not moving forward![Just making a point,you are entitled to express what you like]
I see your point on poor conditions affecting qualifying times/distances but they do it in England and it works for them.Times/distances can also be taken from county events/schools/indoors/even some open sports,ie Leevale.Even allow times/distances to be used from the season before.Im not saying to set unreasonable standards.Just take a look at last years juvenile results and just look at some of the times and distances from athletes who qualified from their province.It was ridiculous.

Also which of the following is more beneficial to an athlete-
John competing u16 and winning the 100m by nearly 10metres in 11.05 which he has done for 3years.Barry competing u17 and doing the same in 11.06
OR John and Barry racing each other with one running 10.95 and the other 10.96?

PADDYPOKER

What's the Cavan course in 2 weeks time going to be like?
I presume it's all hilly and in the middle of Dec going to be cold & wet.

Clum

dpo wrote: »

Craig Murphy won the juniors.

And apparently with only one shoe! According to athleticsireland.ie he lost a spike near the start, stopped to put it on but failed and had to work his way through the group to the head of the race again before going on to win the race. Savage stuff!

helpisontheway

cfitz wrote: »

Well surely the idea of an Athletics Association is to provide the athletes with what they would like.

Your example about the age groups make sense but you could apply it to any number of age groups - have one National Juvenile 100m Championships race for everyone from 12-18. Send the 32 fastest to Tullamore for heats. You'd have great competition and it'd all be over in a day or two.

I like chocolate but its not good for me is it?????!!!;) My point is a solution has to be found to a particular problem which is fixture congestion and the rising costs of travelling.There are always goin to be people who like things certain ways and those who dont.You might like things the way they are but unfortunatly it is obvious that it is not working so a change is needed.Whether those changes would work is a different story but something has to be tried.

Yes my example of age groups makes sense,yours is ridiculous and without tought! It is not an accurate comparison as i allow for national talent from ages 12 to 20,you only allow for talent 16 to 20 as no 12 year old in Ireland could compete against athletes in those age groups!

helpisontheway

ss43 wrote: »

More people in england would lead to more competition and thus more opportunities to get qualifying times. I'm not too aware of what's going on in england but in what way is it working - more people participating, happier participants, higher level of performance (take into account greater population)?


Leevale open sports are grand for getting times but what if the open sports in your area is on a grass or gravel track? There is a shortage of good tracks in the country.

One of the big things that keep people involved in sport is perceived success. More age groups mean me people winning national medals which will increase their confidence and motivation to stick with the sport.

Some people are going to have to travel no matter where it is. If you rotate venues it means different people have to travel each time.

Could you give any more detail about this family who paid over €5000 on two athletes? It seems a bit much. Are you sure they weren't going a bit over the top?

Leevale open sports was just an example.I am aware that most open sports are on grass.I was just showing that there are other competitions outside provincial championships to get qualifying standards.eg.If you are a 16 year old ong jumper in Cork[Im not from Cork by the way] you can get a qualifying jump at the following competitions for national outdoors if you are allowed use your best distance for lets say 2 seasons -
Munster juvenile Indoors
Munster Multi events Indoors[If you also multi event]
Munster Junior Indoors
Cork juvenile T+F
Munster juvenile T+F
Munster junior T+F
Munster Multi events outdoors
Cork Secondary schools T+F
South Munster schools T+F
Munster schools T+F
National schools T+F
Tailteann Games T+F
Leevale Open sports
Cork county junior T+F
I could also include some senior competitions and then multiply all this for 2 seasons.Surely an athlete of a national standard can get a reasonable qualifying jump in in one of those competitions regardless of weather.

Ok here goes a rough estimate of 2 parents,2 athletes travel[petrol] and acc.I wont even include eating out which is obviously a necessity as they cant cook like they do at home.Family room lets say e150 per night considering hotels in these areas know these competitions are held the same time every year.

Travel-4 trips to Munster squads,ie.Nenagh,Cork,UL-e120
Munster Indoors u13-u19 2days,1 over night-e200
Munster Indoors u10-u12 1day,-e30
Munster Indoor Multi events -e30
National Indoor multi events 1 night-e200
National Indoors 2 weekends,4 overnight-e700
Munster Outdoors in Templemore u9-u14 [over 3hr drive],2 nights e360
Munster Outdoors in Cork u15-u19 1 day e30
National Juveniles in Antrim u13-u19 3 nights e600
National Juvenile in Tullamore u9-u12 1 night e200
National Juvenile in Tullamore u13-u19 2 nights e400
National Inter County Relays Santry 1 night e200
Thats over e3000 so far-
They also attended the scottish indoors which is common for alot of Irish athletes=e900 for 2athletes and 1 parent.
Aslo community games athletics in Mosney[i know its not AAI but its alot of the same athletes]=2nights=e400.
How much would you spend on gear in a season,pair of runners,spikes,shorts=e160
Hammer shoes aslo for one of them=e120
I havent even listed the numerous county events and sports days.This year the older boy will aslo have secondary school competitions!!
Also take into account the amount of Fridays and Mondays taken off work to travel to some of these events!!! Another family in our club had 4 kids qualify for nationals last year.It is not a once off thing,its happening in clubs all over the country and you will realise that when you see the decrease in numbers at competitions in 2009!!!

ss43

Plenty of chances alright for those doing indoor. I'd be coming from a distance running background where you could be doing cross country all spring rather than indoor so there'd be less chance to get times. Also, what about people from Connacht. The standard tends to be pretty low there compared to rest of the country which makes getting the times a lot harder so you could have lads that are good enough to get in but need competition to get the time missing out.

I don't think that family's problem applies to most people in the country. Ye must be right in the corner of the country somewhere to need to spend that many nights away from home for events. Most of the country doesn't have this problem. While that doesn't make it any less of an issue for your club, I don't think the AAI should get rid of half of its juvenile age groups because some extreme examples are struggling to meet the financial requirements. They could try do something to help maybe but they'd be doing a disservice to more people than they'd serve I think if they brought huvenile age groups down to every second year. Maybe I'm underestimating the scale of this problem as due to my own location I rarely have to stay overnight for events in Ireland.

Also if Tullamore requires an overnight stay, there is little alternative in the way of a central venue.

helpisontheway wrote: »

Leevale open sports was just an example.I am aware that most open sports are on grass.I was just showing that there are other competitions outside provincial championships to get qualifying standards.eg.If you are a 16 year old ong jumper in Cork[Im not from Cork by the way] you can get a qualifying jump at the following competitions for national outdoors if you are allowed use your best distance for lets say 2 seasons -
Munster juvenile Indoors
Munster Multi events Indoors[If you also multi event]
Munster Junior Indoors
Cork juvenile T+F
Munster juvenile T+F
Munster junior T+F
Munster Multi events outdoors
Cork Secondary schools T+F
South Munster schools T+F
Munster schools T+F
National schools T+F
Tailteann Games T+F
Leevale Open sports
Cork county junior T+F
I could also include some senior competitions and then multiply all this for 2 seasons.Surely an athlete of a national standard can get a reasonable qualifying jump in in one of those competitions regardless of weather.

Ok here goes a rough estimate of 2 parents,2 athletes travel[petrol] and acc.I wont even include eating out which is obviously a necessity as they cant cook like they do at home.Family room lets say e150 per night considering hotels in these areas know these competitions are held the same time every year.

Travel-4 trips to Munster squads,ie.Nenagh,Cork,UL-e120
Munster Indoors u13-u19 2days,1 over night-e200
Munster Indoors u10-u12 1day,-e30
Munster Indoor Multi events -e30
National Indoor multi events 1 night-e200
National Indoors 2 weekends,4 overnight-e700
Munster Outdoors in Templemore u9-u14 [over 3hr drive],2 nights e360
Munster Outdoors in Cork u15-u19 1 day e30
National Juveniles in Antrim u13-u19 3 nights e600
National Juvenile in Tullamore u9-u12 1 night e200
National Juvenile in Tullamore u13-u19 2 nights e400
National Inter County Relays Santry 1 night e200
Thats over e3000 so far-
They also attended the scottish indoors which is common for alot of Irish athletes=e900 for 2athletes and 1 parent.
Aslo community games athletics in Mosney[i know its not AAI but its alot of the same athletes]=2nights=e400.
How much would you spend on gear in a season,pair of runners,spikes,shorts=e160
Hammer shoes aslo for one of them=e120
I havent even listed the numerous county events and sports days.This year the older boy will aslo have secondary school competitions!!
Also take into account the amount of Fridays and Mondays taken off work to travel to some of these events!!! Another family in our club had 4 kids qualify for nationals last year.It is not a once off thing,its happening in clubs all over the country and you will realise that when you see the decrease in numbers at competitions in 2009!!!

thirtyfoot

I'd be for having less age groups and less national competitions and maybe more regional and local competitions. A day at a juvenile competition is like a test of endurance which can last from morning to evening and spread over two days. Less age groups will mean half the time at competition (or less time anyway) with more numbers in events and sunsequently more competitive. Helpisontheway seems to be coming at this from the overview of all events as opposed to others who seem to have a narrower focus on the events they are into which while natural can be the cause of problems as it will lead to just looking after your own patch and proximity bias. Schools works well with 3 to 4 age groups and its probably the most competitive champs all season. If people look away from their own events and take field events for example the numbers are small and in the main very uncompetitive. Even in cross-country, clubs are struggling to get numbers together for teams.

In the world now where time and convenience is everything, it should be easier and convenient to do the sport. Although there have been many versions at the lower ages and each version gets ultimately resisted always by those who want their own Johnny or Mary to be taking individual glory I would push the focus (even up to 15 or 16) onto a team-based format where skills and technique can be worked on within a team orientated environment. Team competition at county level, normal and frequent local competitions held and then county teams are picked using clear, transparent and equitable criteria. These go onto provincial and 1winning county per province progresses to nationals. 4 counties at nationals and then each province will pick a best of the rest in each event to make a provincial team. 8 teams at the 15-20 events, two days, no heats, great competition at both individual and team level. At all levels there is a target for a club or kid. Make the county team or next level up help the county team win provincials and if fail there be good enough to make "best of the rest" provincial team and at the highest level do well at the nationals. One national competition, spread over a weekend.

ecoli

there are two sides to every argument
while i agree that reducing the competition time tables would provide a great benefit it can only work to an extent. You also have to look at it from the terms of the athletes at the younger ages every effort is being made to encourage kids into the sport so by giving them less opportunities to do well at the younger ages it can discourage the kids from the sport. One solution to this would be to reduce amount of age groups in the later stages of juvenile athletics such as getting rid of maybe u 15 and more so u 17. By this stage they will have a natural competitiveness and the age will have less of a factor in terms of them competing equally, after all there is more of a difference between an 11 and 12 year old than there is 17 and 18 year old. encouragement into the sport at young age is just as important as easing the congested timetables

helpisontheway

Tingle wrote: »

I'd be for having less age groups and less national competitions and maybe more regional and local competitions. A day at a juvenile competition is like a test of endurance which can last from morning to evening and spread over two days. Less age groups will mean half the time at competition (or less time anyway) with more numbers in events and sunsequently more competitive. Helpisontheway seems to be coming at this from the overview of all events as opposed to others who seem to have a narrower focus on the events they are into which while natural can be the cause of problems as it will lead to just looking after your own patch and proximity bias. Schools works well with 3 to 4 age groups and its probably the most competitive champs all season. If people look away from their own events and take field events for example the numbers are small and in the main very uncompetitive. Even in cross-country, clubs are struggling to get numbers together for teams.

In the world now where time and convenience is everything, it should be easier and convenient to do the sport. Although there have been many versions at the lower ages and each version gets ultimately resisted always by those who want their own Johnny or Mary to be taking individual glory I would push the focus (even up to 15 or 16) onto a team-based format where skills and technique can be worked on within a team orientated environment. Team competition at county level, normal and frequent local competitions held and then county teams are picked using clear, transparent and equitable criteria. These go onto provincial and 1winning county per province progresses to nationals. 4 counties at nationals and then each province will pick a best of the rest in each event to make a provincial team. 8 teams at the 15-20 events, two days, no heats, great competition at both individual and team level. At all levels there is a target for a club or kid. Make the county team or next level up help the county team win provincials and if fail there be good enough to make "best of the rest" provincial team and at the highest level do well at the nationals. One national competition, spread over a weekend.

Spot on Tingle in relation to my thinking.I have no children involved so im looking at it for all events from cross country to track and field.I and most athletes are now going from Sept to August,burnout anyone!!!

Ecoli and many others assume that athletes have to win and win at a high level in order to keep them in the sport,that is not true!!! last Saturday i had 52 teenagers at training,about 13/14 have never won a munster medal!!
Team inclusion is the way to go whether people like it or not.Unfortunatly the current format of team events in the younger age groups dosent work as smaller clubs do not have the numbers to compete in teams against bigger clubs.
I have always been a huge advocate of county teams,it already works very well in some counties for cross country.Tingles idea may be the way to go or then again maybe not but we have to try something!If we keep going the way we are we will only go backwards.

As fors SS43 your point on Connaught could easily be compared to Ireland and the rest of the world.If we had a higher standard national competition then we would have more athletes qualifying for major competitions and doing better at them! Your logic makes the point that Irish athletes who are good enough arent qualifying for major competitions because of the current format!
Also your view that the financial problem doesnt apply to most people in the country is incorrect.It affects Cork who have the most registered members and statistically the most talented athletes at juvenile level,Kerry,Donegal,Waterford[Ferrybank],parts of Clare,parts of Limerick,The Northern counties!
Central venues combined with less days of national competition would make a huge difference.Tullamore,Templemore and even Dublin due to its transport links,No Antrim,Cork,Waterford for C/C,etc National B competitions,really whats the point? Competitions that could be done over 2days spread over 4!! Madness!:mad:

ss43

helpisontheway wrote: »

Spot on Tingle in relation to my thinking.I have no children involved so im looking at it for all events from cross country to track and field.I and most athletes are now going from Sept to August,burnout anyone!!!

Ecoli and many others assume that athletes have to win and win at a high level in order to keep them in the sport,that is not true!!! last Saturday i had 52 teenagers at training,about 13/14 have never won a munster medal!!
Team inclusion is the way to go whether people like it or not.Unfortunatly the current format of team events in the younger age groups dosent work as smaller clubs do not have the numbers to compete in teams against bigger clubs.
I have always been a huge advocate of county teams,it already works very well in some counties for cross country.Tingles idea may be the way to go or then again maybe not but we have to try something!If we keep going the way we are we will only go backwards.

As fors SS43 your point on Connaught could easily be compared to Ireland and the rest of the world.If we had a higher standard national competition then we would have more athletes qualifying for major competitions and doing better at them! Your logic makes the point that Irish athletes who are good enough arent qualifying for major competitions because of the current format!
Also your view that the financial problem doesnt apply to most people in the country is incorrect.It affects Cork who have the most registered members and statistically the most talented athletes at juvenile level,Kerry,Donegal,Waterford[Ferrybank],parts of Clare,parts of Limerick,The Northern counties!
Central venues combined with less days of national competition would make a huge difference.Tullamore,Templemore and even Dublin due to its transport links,No Antrim,Cork,Waterford for C/C,etc National B competitions,really whats the point? Competitions that could be done over 2days spread over 4!! Madness!:mad:

If athletes are in danger of burnout, the problem is lack of guidance. Just because there's events from competition from September to August doesn't mean the athlete has to do them all.

Wow, a whopping 25% of your group haven't medalled at provincial level. They must really only be there for a laugh. How long has that 25% been competing?

To have county teams, does that not lead to more travel (and more expense) as an effective team will train together?

If central venues are used the same people always have to travel and are always at a disadvantage. If they are rotatated, the most athletes get some big race that they don't ahve to travel a long way for.

helpisontheway

ss43 wrote: »

If athletes are in danger of burnout, the problem is lack of guidance. Just because there's events from competition from September to August doesn't mean the athlete has to do them all.

Wow, a whopping 25% of your group haven't medalled at provincial level. They must really only be there for a laugh. How long has that 25% been competing?

To have county teams, does that not lead to more travel (and more expense) as an effective team will train together?

If central venues are used the same people always have to travel and are always at a disadvantage. If they are rotatated, the most athletes get some big race that they don't ahve to travel a long way for.

Yes i would argree that guidance will stop athlete burnout but AAI cannot control how each athlete is guided by their coach,they can control fixtures!

I hope SS43 that you are not questioning my coaching skills? Does your club have 52 teenagers training together?I also have 2 groups of juveniles which add upto about 140 kids of which 80% havent won a Munster medal!To me and anybody who is interested in the long term development of the sport that is a far greater achievement than having 3 or 4 excellent teenagers.That 25% are as important to me as the other 75% and your attitude as to there only there for the laugh is offensive.Do you believe if your not a winner that you have no place in the sport of athletics because that is what you are implying??!!

In relation to County teams,i would imagine in Tingles example that athletes will still train with their clubs,just compete in a county singlet for Munsters and Nationals leaving a larger number at home for local competitions which involves less travelling and expense.Then because of the decreased numbers at nationals lead to less days of competition again leaving less travelling and less expense.

I know central venues does not work on its own,it has to be combined with less days of competition!! If a national competition is in Antrim on a Sat and Sun realistically i have to take Fri off work as it is a 6 hour drive and i would have to leave my house at 4am on Sat morning to get there and Monday also.If that same competition is on in a central venue like Tullamore which is 3hrs i can leave my house at 7am on the sat which isnt too unreasonable and be home Sun evening at 8-9pm!!! Your rotation idea cannot work as some counties dont have a track so they cannot be rotated equally.
Antrim last year was the lowest standard national juveniles i have been to in 10 years.Example the 2nd place u14 boys long jump would not have medaled in the Munster championships but because the 2nd/3rd/4th athletes from Munster didnt travel because of the distance 2 athletes who didnt deserve a national medal got one and it happened in numerous events.Iv seen the same happen in Cross Country when the competition is lets say in Donegal,alot of athletes who qualify dont go.If these competitions were central you would get more athletes competing as nobody would be too far away to attend rather than always having one section of the country too far away due to rotation!

ss43

You gave out about people assuming that athletes had to win at a high level to stay in the sport and then mentioned your example of your group with 52 athletes, 13/14 of whom hadn't won medals at Munster level.

I was being sarcastic as that is a very low percentage of a training group not to have won provincial medals, especially when they could be the newer members of the group who just haven't won the medals yet and will in the future. Apologies for the confusion. I was suggesting that on the basis of that group you couldn't make much of a judgement on people staying in the support without being at a high level as most of the group was already at a high level. You've since mentioned bigger groups with athletes who haven't got to as high a level so I guess you do have an insight into athletes at a 'lower' level. I'm not questioning your coaching. I don't know anything about it.

Regarding the county teams, it's not really much of a team if they only see each other on race day.

I think it's good that there's fixtures year round. It means people can find something to focus on at whichever times of the year suit them. Other sports could prevent them from focusing on athletics at certain times of the year so with competitions year round they can focus on atletics in the off season of their other sport(s) whenever that is. There just needs to be guidance in the clubs to ensure that athletes aren't trying to do too much.

helpisontheway wrote: »

Yes i would argree that guidance will stop athlete burnout but AAI cannot control how each athlete is guided by their coach,they can control fixtures!

I hope SS43 that you are not questioning my coaching skills? Does your club have 52 teenagers training together?I also have 2 groups of juveniles which add upto about 140 kids of which 80% havent won a Munster medal!To me and anybody who is interested in the long term development of the sport that is a far greater achievement than having 3 or 4 excellent teenagers.That 25% are as important to me as the other 75% and your attitude as to there only there for the laugh is offensive.Do you believe if your not a winner that you have no place in the sport of athletics because that is what you are implying??!!

In relation to County teams,i would imagine in Tingles example that athletes will still train with their clubs,just compete in a county singlet for Munsters and Nationals leaving a larger number at home for local competitions which involves less travelling and expense.Then because of the decreased numbers at nationals lead to less days of competition again leaving less travelling and less expense.

I know central venues does not work on its own,it has to be combined with less days of competition!! If a national competition is in Antrim on a Sat and Sun realistically i have to take Fri off work as it is a 6 hour drive and i would have to leave my house at 4am on Sat morning to get there and Monday also.If that same competition is on in a central venue like Tullamore which is 3hrs i can leave my house at 7am on the sat which isnt too unreasonable and be home Sun evening at 8-9pm!!! Your rotation idea cannot work as some counties dont have a track so they cannot be rotated equally.
Antrim last year was the lowest standard national juveniles i have been to in 10 years.Example the 2nd place u14 boys long jump would not have medaled in the Munster championships but because the 2nd/3rd/4th athletes from Munster didnt travel because of the distance 2 athletes who didnt deserve a national medal got one and it happened in numerous events.Iv seen the same happen in Cross Country when the competition is lets say in Donegal,alot of athletes who qualify dont go.If these competitions were central you would get more athletes competing as nobody would be too far away to attend rather than always having one section of the country too far away due to rotation!

ChickenTikka

I like some of Tingle's suggestions regarding team format. Perhaps even a reduced format of the National League could be pushed down into the juvenile age groups. Where many clubs will have difficulty fielding teams in u16.17.18, they would not find it so difficult in u11,12,13 etc.

You could have combine age groups for such a competition, e..g U16-19, U12-14.

I think this is where our sport is greatly lacking. In the team sports, there are a few stars on the team who carry the rest of the team. The other 12 or 13 guys or girls on the team are a variety of standards but get to participate and enjoy some success as a team and that keeps them in the sport. It also keeps a good social group together of the same ages. I think many talented athletes give up the sport and drift towards a team sport because there are so few their own age in their training group.

Regarding the points around central venues, I fully agree. Its madness having to travel from one end of the country to the other for National finals for juveniles. The problem as I see it is politics ... Sligo got a new track a few years back and successfully got awarded 1 day of the National Juvenile Championships in 2005. Munster were clearly pee'ed off with this and successfully got the Championships held in Cork IT the following year. They must have been really pee'ed off because they were again in Cork in 07, this time the Mardyke. This left folks in Ulster annoyed so they were placated this year by the juvenile championships been in Antrim and next year's indoors in the new track in Maheraghfelt!

Not been smart about it, but the Munster clubs didn't complain too loudly I'd say when any Ulster clubs had to travel to Cork in 06 and 07. And perhaps there were some Ulster stars there too who would have taken national medals if they had travelled so the standard of competition was lower in their absense.

So maybe every club has to say to their county and regional boards - no, we don't want you to host the National Championships because we are at 1 end of the country and its not fair to the rest. And pigs will fly!

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

Regarding the county teams, it's not really much of a team if they only see each other on race day.

.

You are missing the point of the county team. Track and field teams at all levels - from domestic club in national league to international teams in Europa Cup - don't train together. The county team concept is a funnel to get the top athletes to top competition and competing against each other and also creating team-based goals and target for all athletes. Its not like other team sports which are real team sports. Athletics is an individual sport but things can be done at a younger age to take out the over-competitive nature of the sport. Skill development is crucial at the younger ages and if coaches/parents are too concerned with medal chasing then the crucial years are lost. I always look at Carolina Kluft as an example. By 16 she was adept at all her multi-events. She could jump, throw and hurdle as she has from early teens worked on all the skill sets and only when 16/17 did she seriously begin to focus on conditioning and other stuff. As a result she is the greatest all round women athlete of this generation.

As for the lack of success at provincial level for younger athletes, its a very short-sighted view and again probably a symptom of what we regard as success as a coach or athlete in that medals must be won etc etc. I won a provincial cross-country medal when I was 9. The next I won was when I was 20. An 11 year gap without a provincial medal. Failure and not very successfull and maybe bad coaching but from age 20-22 I probably won between 10-12 provincial titles with a couple of championship records (that still stand today quite a few years later). Late developer or good coaching with an emphasis on long-term athlete development. Also, imagine the satisfaction of bringing a "no-hoper" at 12 to a national champion at 24 or 25. Interesting to read Eddie McDonagh's comments regarding Alan McCormick's win in Tramore, the greatest achievement for him as a coach of all the athletes (and there has been lots) that he has coached.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

As for the lack of success at provincial level for younger athletes, its a very short-sighted view and again probably a symptom of what we regard as success as a coach or athlete in that medals must be won etc etc. I won a provincial cross-country medal when I was 9. The next I won was when I was 20. An 11 year gap without a provincial medal. Failure and not very successfull and maybe bad coaching but from age 20-22 I probably won between 10-12 provincial titles with a couple of championship records (that still stand today quite a few years later). Late developer or good coaching with an emphasis on long-term athlete development. Also, imagine the satisfaction of bringing a "no-hoper" at 12 to a national champion at 24 or 25. Interesting to read Eddie McDonagh's comments regarding Alan McCormick's win in Tramore, the greatest achievement for him as a coach of all the athletes (and there has been lots) that he has coached.

Alan McCormack was 3rd in the U-15 All-Ireland Cross-Country.

myflipflops

cfitz wrote: »

Alan McCormack was 3rd in the U-15 All-Ireland Cross-Country.

Haven't been following this thread fully but i can tell you that Al was top 3 in his own age group (and at least once in the older age group) at every juvenile level from at least under 15 up to junior. Along the way, he also competed at World Junior X, European Junior X and the World Youths on the track.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

Alan McCormack was 3rd in the U-15 All-Ireland Cross-Country.

Sorry, I'm not trying to say he never won anything and in fact is an international athlete already. My point is that as a coach it can be sometimes an athlete who is a lesser light that will give more satisfaction to a coach in that they have developed them through the ages. Of all the athletes that have passed through DSD and for Eddie McDonagh to say that this was the sweetest win of them all. Paul Hession is another example, every donkey in the country has beaten Hession at some stage (slight exaggeration).

myflipflops

Tingle wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not trying to say he never won anything and in fact is an international athlete already. My point is that as a coach it can be sometimes an athlete who is a lesser light that will give more satisfaction to a coach in that they have developed them through the ages. Of all the athletes that have passed through DSD and for Eddie McDonagh to say that this was the sweetest win of them all. Paul Hession is another example, every donkey in the country has beaten Hession at some stage (slight exaggeration).

No, that's a very fair point. Before this season, very few of us would have picked Al to win a National cross considering his senior career to date. I was just pointing out that he did have a very good (and incredibly consistent) juvenile career.

helpisontheway

Tingle wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not trying to say he never won anything and in fact is an international athlete already. My point is that as a coach it can be sometimes an athlete who is a lesser light that will give more satisfaction to a coach in that they have developed them through the ages. Of all the athletes that have passed through DSD and for Eddie McDonagh to say that this was the sweetest win of them all. Paul Hession is another example, every donkey in the country has beaten Hession at some stage (slight exaggeration).

Calling me a donkey is a bit harsh Tingle.:D

helpisontheway

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I like some of Tingle's suggestions regarding team format. Perhaps even a reduced format of the National League could be pushed down into the juvenile age groups. Where many clubs will have difficulty fielding teams in u16.17.18, they would not find it so difficult in u11,12,13 etc.

You could have combine age groups for such a competition, e..g U16-19, U12-14.

I think this is where our sport is greatly lacking. In the team sports, there are a few stars on the team who carry the rest of the team. The other 12 or 13 guys or girls on the team are a variety of standards but get to participate and enjoy some success as a team and that keeps them in the sport. It also keeps a good social group together of the same ages. I think many talented athletes give up the sport and drift towards a team sport because there are so few their own age in their training group.

Regarding the points around central venues, I fully agree. Its madness having to travel from one end of the country to the other for National finals for juveniles. The problem as I see it is politics ... Sligo got a new track a few years back and successfully got awarded 1 day of the National Juvenile Championships in 2005. Munster were clearly pee'ed off with this and successfully got the Championships held in Cork IT the following year. They must have been really pee'ed off because they were again in Cork in 07, this time the Mardyke. This left folks in Ulster annoyed so they were placated this year by the juvenile championships been in Antrim and next year's indoors in the new track in Maheraghfelt!

Not been smart about it, but the Munster clubs didn't complain too loudly I'd say when any Ulster clubs had to travel to Cork in 06 and 07. And perhaps there were some Ulster stars there too who would have taken national medals if they had travelled so the standard of competition was lower in their absense.

So maybe every club has to say to their county and regional boards - no, we don't want you to host the National Championships because we are at 1 end of the country and its not fair to the rest. And pigs will fly!

You hit the nail on the head,Politics is a huge problem.All it takes is one or two people on certain AAI commitee to say im not travelling to that venue/i would like it in that venue/I want those 2weeks free to go on holidays and they get their way because it would be difficult to run the competition without them!!

The general consencus from talking to people from my province and that includes people on county executives and even provincial executives is central venues are necessarry,ss43 is the only person to ever argue the point with me!:D Of course counties and regional boards should say no they should be held in a central venue but they shouldnt have to,AAI shouldnt even let that situation arise!

As for the team event again you had a slightly different format to Tingle but 100 people could post 100 different team formats on here but the most important thing is they try something,if it doesnt work try something else but things cant keep goin the way they are!

dedon

Are there any photos on the web from this? Apart from the few put up on the Athletics Ireland website

dunner :P

any photos of the juviniles ?