UIGEA to be implemented January 09

Chucky the tree

It seems it finally going to be forst through.

The Act prohibits gambling businesses from knowingly accepting payments in connection with unlawful Internet gambling, including payments made through credit cards, electronic funds transfers, and checks.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/bcreg/20081112b.htm


Thread on 2+2 about it.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/uigea-final-342240/

Ace2007

Had a brief look at it - but for the dumb people(me) of this fourm, what does it mean to normal poker players if anything?

Thanks

-Ace-

Chucky the tree

Ace2007 wrote: »

Had a brief look at it - but for the dumb people(me) of this fourm, what does it mean to normal poker players if anything?

Thanks

-Ace-

I am not expert on it either, but from a bit of reading it seems like it will be even hardier for Yanks to get money online.


It will be interesting to see what the likes of stars/Full tilt do now. Ideally it would be great if it meant they now had to compete with sites like Ipoker for the business of European players which would hopefully mean more re-load bonuses etc.

SuperHans

I had always thought that it was already in place?

robinblinds

If you read it, it says that the Treasury and Dept Of Justice must comply with this issue of a joint rule and must do it by Dec 1 2009.

This is still being issued under the soon to be out of rule government. We all know that there will be a new president in a couple of months. So on the contrary, it means that a new debate may well begin, with the new people in power making the final decision.

The timing of the announcement is also intriguing, one day after Bush showed Obama around his new house.

Bush is pissing on his patch here.

CourierCollie

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It seems it finally going to be forst through.






http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/bcreg/20081112b.htm


Thread on 2+2 about it.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/bcreg/20081112b.htm

Could you repost the 2+2 link.
Both those are the same frs ones.

Chucky the tree

Fixed now Collie, cheers.

cuterob

Ace2007 wrote: »

Had a brief look at it - but for the dumb people(me) of this fourm, what does it mean to normal poker players if anything?

Thanks

-Ace-

it doesn't effect us.. unless you're american

it means that americans wont be able to deposit or withdraw funds.. so i think ft plus ps are gonna be working a lot more on the european market.. cant see them keeping the massive guarantees on the sunday majors if america cant play them.. thats if it all happens which at the moment is looking likely.. i dont think obama is gonna care too much about this as he has some other major issues to be worrying about at the moment.. war.. economical downfall etc

HIVeindhoven

That'll pretty much be it for me and poker so. Work Late so i play mostly on the american sites. All the euro sites are dead after 12. FOOOOK this. I'll be turbospunking into all the majors over the next few weeks so to take down that big score.

WECpoker

For those that count on the hoards of fishy americans to play on your poker site....There is HOPE for Change!!! :eek:

The ultimate implementation of these UIGEA rules would probably cripple the majority of US Players from getting funds online as Banks would be required to do everything in their power to stop gambling transactions.

Its bad enough already as many banks have started questioning customers as to where checks and other deposits are coming from, and many deposit options are blocked to sites (not to mention the State of Kentucky's pushing for --and getting -- a local judges ruling to SEIZE the actual Domains of 141 sites)

Americans and the Poker Players Alliance are hoping the New Administration will change the new rules before they become "official" December 2009

[Press Release] PPA Condemns Finalization of Internet Gaming Regulations
Calls on New Administration, Congress to Overturn Flawed Policy

pgodkin

WECpoker wrote: »

For those that count on the hoards of fishy americans to play on your poker site....There is HOPE for Change!!! :eek:

The ultimate implementation of these UIGEA rules would probably cripple the majority of US Players from getting funds online as Banks would be required to do everything in their power to stop gambling transactions.

Its bad enough already as many banks have started questioning customers as to where checks and other deposits are coming from, and many deposit options are blocked to sites (not to mention the State of Kentucky's pushing for --and getting -- a local judges ruling to SEIZE the actual Domains of 141 sites)

Americans and the Poker Players Alliance are hoping the New Administration will change the new rules before they become "official" December 2009

[Press Release] PPA Condemns Finalization of Internet Gaming Regulations
Calls on New Administration, Congress to Overturn Flawed Policy

although this doesn't do online poker much good, Amercia should become a good spot for live games all over the country! Just becasue there not allowed to gamble on line will not stop them gamblin!!

Also the likes of Full-Tilt and Stars will have to compete in the European, and Asian markets which should be good for any irish playin online. Maybe this is why stars are puttin so much effort into the Asian tour to get the name out there!

Although if lets say i was an american could i use a net teller type service thats not based in the US, to play on these site's???? How can the Fed stop that???

Chucky the tree

pgodkin wrote: »

Although if lets say i was an american could i use a net teller type service thats not based in the US, to play on these site's???? How can the Fed stop that???

You'd never be able to get the money from the online serive into your bank acc though, so it would be pretty pointless.

Tight Ted

Anyone that says this isn't a bad thing and/or is a good thing, is a silly billy imo.

Treehouse72

Tight Ted wrote: »

Anyone that says this isn't a bad thing and/or is a good thing, is a silly billy imo.

Totally correct. I was under the - clearly mistaken - apprehension that this law was closer to being overturned than being made more rigorous. Godammit, I was salivating at the thought of all the bad Yanks coming back to the fold.

This is bloody awful. We might even see the committed American pros and grinders using proxies to get onto our Euro sites, which would be a double whammy of a disaster - no US fish but all the US sharks. So bad.

President Obama - "change has come to America". Do it big man, do it!!

TommyGunne

This is just horrendous news for anyone who plays poker.

hotspur

Relax, the past couple of months have been very good for the prospects of online gambling getting regulated in America. I have a feeling UIGEA implementation isn't something to be worried about and that the legislation will be dead before it ever got implemented.

When the history of online gambling comes is written in the future there will be two names seen as key in getting America to regulate and tax online gambling, they are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

ArmaniJeanss

hotspur wrote: »

When the history of online gambling comes is written in the future there will be two names seen as key in getting America to regulate and tax online gambling, they are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Expand on this maybe?

hotspur

Compare where we are now to when UIGEA was passed in Sept 2006. Then Republicans controlled the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the White House. It had a Presidential nomination to fight over with Bill Frist pandering to the religious right as were other Republicans such as Jim Leach shortly before the congress elections in November.

Fast forward to today, last week the Democrats crushed the Republicans and have comfortable majorities in both houses of congress and have the White House.

UIGEA was always a joke from the way it was introduced to the way it is unworkable. Two years ago the financial institutions complained about the cost of time and money it would take to try to implement it. This was before everything went, (to use the appropriate financial term) tits up. The idea that this burden would genuinely be thrust onto the financial institutions at this time is ridiculous. I perceive this latest move as nothing more than an empty gesture to the social conservative right.

I am not sufficiently familiar with the timing aspects of repealing legislation when Obama comes in a day after this new nonsense does, but I have no doubt that by the enforcement date of December 2009 that it will be but a memory. I imagine it will get wrapped up in a big package of GTFO legislation that is changed under Obama and will not require a separate vote on UIGEA - kind of like the way it got in in the first place.

The US is obviously in huge financial distress, my State California is projecting a $28 billion budget deficit over the next 18 months lol. In these times anything and everything will be looked at to cut spending and raise funds. Now in this environment is the government more likely to:
a) burden the financial industry to the tune of millions trying to implement a nonsense piece of legislation?
or
b) look to raise funds by regulating and taxing online gambling?

The recent UIGEA thing was a cop out, really it was "meh, we couldn't be bothered". Read what the premier gambling law expert I Nelson Rose thinks about it:
http://www.compatiblepoker.com/final-uigea.cms.htm

ocallagh

As hotspur mentioned it would require a considerable amount of investment from the banks and in this climate I can't see that happening, also the American banking association are strongly opposed to it. More than likely it will be ignored to a degree for quite some time and nothing much will change.

Treehouse72

Interesting and heartening post Hotspur.

Don't know if you can answer these questions, but I'll ask anyway:

1. Do most American recreational players think online poker is illegal/no longer operational?
2. Has this belief caused most of the fish/recreational players to stop playing, leaving just the pros/regs/grinders at FT/PS?
3. What are the prospects for getting those fish/recreational players playing again? Is there any reason to believe they are still out there and open to playing again if it becomes easy/"legal" to do so?
4. When/If they do start playing again, is it likely to be on regulated US-only sites, or is it likely they'll have Euro sites open to them too?


Cheers.

RoundTower

wait until

a) it happens
b) the Congressional Review thingy (basically this says that anything Georgie and the evangelicals pass now still has to get by Barack and co in Feb)

When the original UIGEA passed in mid 2006 it was a bad thing. Lots of networks like iPoker overreacted and pulled out of the US market. The guys who hung in there did really well (mostly Pokerstars and Full Tilt Poker). Pulling out of the US market was probably the single worst decision ever taken by PartyGaming, iPoker, etc.

Some companies will panic again now. Who knows who they will be? Probably the panic is not justified. Just keep on playing as normal.

WECpoker

I will attempt some answers based on what I know and have seen people say......

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Interesting and heartening post Hotspur.

Don't know if you can answer these questions, but I'll ask anyway:

1. Do most American recreational players think online poker is illegal/no longer operational?

First, the new regulations dont make online poker illegal in the US, it is strictly a financial institution regulatory scheme. They just dont let US players transfer money around to play it

I dont think most American players even know Online Poker has been technically illegal for sometime in the whole country. I say technically because the Department of Justice has been publicly of the opinion current laws have made online poker illegal for a while now for the entire country. Lawyers believe if an individual player would actually be prosecuted under federal law if would be a murky question at best if the interpretation of the law would stick.

Even though any indivdual prosecution of online poker players is remote at this time....Several US States have made it specifically illegal. So my guess is Washington State players would know it is illegal since the state made it a felony to play online and it was advertised widely. Also, Kentucky players would now realize it is illegal since a judge has forced many sites to IP block any residents (and even may be able to initially seize as many as 141 domain names that belonged to gambling sites)


2. Has this belief caused most of the fish/recreational players to stop playing, leaving just the pros/regs/grinders at FT/PS?

Naw, PokerStars and Full Tilt never had so many players. But the fact the government has been able to effectively block many avenues to deposit money means much less money is online from the US.



3. What are the prospects for getting those fish/recreational players playing again? Is there any reason to believe they are still out there and open to playing again if it becomes easy/"legal" to do so?

People love poker and gambling in the US. If it could be made easier again to get money online it would come pouring in.


4. When/If they do start playing again, is it likely to be on regulated US-only sites, or is it likely they'll have Euro sites open to them too?

Hard to tell....No one really has an idea the road legislators may take in overturning the current banking regulations, or regulation of poker in the US. Will know better once the new Congress comes to power.

Hope that was informative

hotspur

Treehouse72 wrote: »

1. Do most American recreational players think online poker is illegal/no longer operational?

Online poker may actually be illegal in some states. Nine states have state legislation pertaining specifically to online gambling but it's a matter of debate whether poker is included under definitions of gambling with some of them. No federal law makes online gambling illegal and it never had been, the relevant The Wire act explicitly only makes the business of offering online gambling illegal. All we can say for sure without judicial interpretations is that online poker playing is definitely not illegal in the vast majority of America.

I would say the majority of recreational players believe that online poker is illegal, but I doubt any of them think it isn't still operational.

Treehouse72 wrote: »

2. Has this belief caused most of the fish/recreational players to stop playing, leaving just the pros/regs/grinders at FT/PS?

This is debatable. FT/PS are the two places that the random recreational Americans are most likely to play, it's all the other sites and networks which banned Americans post-UIGEA which lost the American fish.

Also any loss of American fish was imo made up for by sites focusing on growing their European customer base. The fishiness of a country's players in online poker is due to how long poker has been popular there and just how popular it actually is. So while the popularity of poker in America resulted in lots of recreational players trying it out during the boom, most of them now either wouldn't be playing anymore or would have improved if they are.

So the new wave of German, French, Italian donkeys are every bit as bad as the American fish would be due to poker not having been popular in their countries long enough for players to have gained experience and learnt how to play well.

Numberwise we are doing pretty well with players on sites. The reason the game is tougher isn't because the worst American fish may have left it is because the average skill level has sky rocketed due to years of experience and greater availability of expertise due to training sites etc. Hold em is close to unplayable these days unless you 8 table grind because 100nl have the average % for flop that 5/10 did 4 years ago.

Treehouse72 wrote: »

3. What are the prospects for getting those fish/recreational players playing again? Is there any reason to believe they are still out there and open to playing again if it becomes easy/"legal" to do so?

The poker boom is over, they got caught up in the craze, tried it out, got bored / broke / better and that's that. I doubt there are a significant number of American fish out there who want to play online poker but don't for legal reasons. And even if by magic you could get them back or replaced them with other fish like we have done in Europe and will do in Asia they will get eaten up very quickly by the non-new players these days. They only lasted so long years ago because we were all relatively bad at the game compared to now.[/QUOTE]

Treehouse72 wrote: »

4. When/If they do start playing again, is it likely to be on regulated US-only sites, or is it likely they'll have Euro sites open to them too?

Good question. No doubt the US authorities will want to go down the road of demanding that only US based gambling sites (i.e. taxable) will be permitted to legally offer services to Americans. They could do this by citing the claim used ubiquitously by State gambling monopolies that they need to protect their citizens from unscrupulous operators and ensure responsible gambling practices are upheld. It's a load of rubbish but it is even enshrined in EU law as a reason for blatant protectionism.

Treehouse72

Thanks for those replies guys.

I'm not massively optimistic

Fatboydim

I think it unlikely they'll go ahead with this. Although of course the Wire Act that prohibited gambling transactions across state lines was introduced by the Kennedy administration [Though it was in part an attempt to prohibit the laundering of money and the actions of the Mafia] It's a slightly different ball game here with business being to the core. Given the current economic climate however it would be more likely that the new administration would look for ways of making online gambling taxable rather than illegal.

opr

Barack Obama's new administration ordered all federal agencies and departments on Tuesday to stop any pending regulations until they can be reviewed by incoming staff, halting last-minute Bush orders in their tracks.

It still seems unclear if UIGEA falls under this review

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/news-barack-obama-stops-pending-bush-regulations-review-393687/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57/poker-legislation/obama-halts-some-pending-regulations-393565/

Opr

WECpoker

opr wrote: »

It still seems unclear if UIGEA falls under this review

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/news-barack-obama-stops-pending-bush-regulations-review-393687/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57/poker-legislation/obama-halts-some-pending-regulations-393565/

Opr

Well, it is being implemented at the moment.....we will see

Funny story here:

While puzzling as it sounds the government has blocked banks from processing gambling transactions made through a Visa, MasterCard or any other major credit card issued by a US bank. This law which went into effect only a few days ago is meant to enforce the UIGEA and restrict players from making payments to online casinos and poker sites.

The UIGEA only finished its review period Monday, and yet the law banning payment transactions to online casinos is already malfunctioning, as experts predicted it would. According to a report on the UnionLeader.com, sales of tickets for the New Hampshire state lottery on the Internet have erroneously been blocked by credit card companies.

Opponents of the problematic law had said that asking financial institutions to identify which online gambling transactions were illegal could result in many legitimate payments being blocked. Now, just hours into the implementation of the controversial bill, both credit and debit cards are rejecting purchases on NHLottery.com, a site owned by New Hampshire.

WECpoker

Here is a further discussion of why UIGEA will not be overturned in a hurry
Quick Summary - It will likely not be overturned in 2009

From: http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentID=176763
In the opening days of the Obama administration, there has been a flurry of activity, including a halt on all pending regulations. But one thing that is not likely to be reopened for debate is the UIGEA regulations.
While President Barack Obama can easily halt all pending regulations from being implemented, which he did on Tuesday, reversing rules that went into effect prior to his inauguration -- like the UIGEA -- is much more difficult.

Once a rule (which is essentially a set of regulations) is announced and in the books for 60 days, it becomes law. And by finalizing and announcing the UIGEA regulations in early November, the Bush administration easily beat the deadline. That means the regulations that went into effect January 19 can not be overturned easily.

There are essentially three ways to overturn the UIGEA regulations. The first is for Obama to ask the Treasury Department and Federal Reserve for a new rule to govern the UIGEA. That would initiate a lengthy rulemaking process, similar to how the first set of UIGEA regulations was crafted. But with the U.S. economy in the tank, it is unlikely that either department will want to tackle this issue in 2009.

The remaining two methods for preventing the UIGEA from being enforced involve legislative solutions. Congress could pass legislation that delayed the implementation of the UIGEA until the definition of online gambling was clarified. A measure, sponsored by Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), was passed by the House Financial Services Committee in September. It's likely that Frank will reintroduce a version of this bill this year. But as we saw in 2008, getting this legislation through Committee was very tricky. And whether the full House or Senate would approve the measure is anybody's guess.

Congress could also choose to pass the Midnight Rule Act, which would delay the implementation of agency rules adopted within the final 90 days of a president's term and give incoming agency heads a chance to approve them. But the measure, introduced by Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), doesn't have any cosponsors and no hearing has been scheduled on the issue.

So will the UIGEA regulations as they stand right now last through the year? Probably. That's not to say that change can't happen this year. Momentum is building toward it, so it can happen. And I hope it does. But the reality is the Obama administration and Congress will be focused on other problems in 2009, and that federal progress on online gambling in the U.S. might have to wait for another year.

DEEP THROAT

Lets Get Things In Perspective Here...

Oval Office Day 100.

The honeymoon period is ending.

Obama thinks to himself.

Gotta Close Guantanamo Bay

Gotta Get The Boys Back From Iraq

Gotta Save All the Banks

The Car Industry Rightly ****ed

Treasury Deficit Worse Ever

Unemployment Steadily Rising

etc

etc

A Longhaired Git with a Beard and a Stetson / Some Dude who looks vaguely like Tiger Woods / A hefty looking guy with a puss on him / a couple of blonde girlies ask him for an audience

He looks at them and sees they're all wearing black and red branded apparel that have the words Full Tilt written on them.

Their spokesperson informs the President that they have a problem..

"Sob Sob We Can't Play Online Poker Any More Cos Big Bad Bush Stopped Us and it's really important you drop everything to help us play again. "

Obama looks and thinks.......

He Picks Up His Phone

"Alright Hilary You Got Me But Will You Get Your Friends From Candid Camera To **** Off, But If That Really Is Tiger Woods With Them Ask Him If He Can Help Me With My Swing"

mark renton

DEEP THROAT wrote: »

Lets Get Things In Perspective Here...

Oval Office Day 100.

The honeymoon period is ending.

Obama thinks to himself.

Gotta Close Guantanamo Bay

Gotta Get The Boys Back From Iraq

Gotta Save All the Banks

The Car Industry Rightly ****ed

Treasury Deficit Worse Ever

Unemployment Steadily Rising

etc

etc

A Longhaired Git with a Beard and a Stetson / Some Dude who looks vaguely like Tiger Woods / A hefty looking guy with a puss on him / a couple of blonde girlies ask him for an audience

He looks at them and sees they're all wearing black and red branded apparel that have the words Full Tilt written on them.

Their spokesperson informs the President that they have a problem..

"Sob Sob We Can't Play Online Poker Any More Cos Big Bad Bush Stopped Us and it's really important you drop everything to help us play again. "

Obama looks and thinks.......

He Picks Up His Phone

"Alright Hilary You Got Me But Will You Get Your Friends From Candid Camera To **** Off, But If That Really Is Tiger Woods With Them Ask Him If He Can Help Me With My Swing"

Class

LARDO

Touche, lol,why do poker players thing they are always the centre of the universe!

I just cant believe the nonsense im reading on this thread. Ive been in america for several months in the last year and while i play recreationally at weekend it was clear that everyone that plays at all is well aware of the legal issues.

Furthermore people offered me a couple of points just to transfer them money to their accounts, there are people desperate to get money online but simply cant. There are means but they involve way too much effort.

This issue is in the wildernes as far as priority is concerened and furthermore many of the casinos are leaving staff go, ive seen this firsthand, I imagine they would aggressively argue that a rollback of theese laws will cost more american jobs and hurt a reeling gambling industry.