Imagine A World

Gareth37

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

Hivemind187

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Like a small communist village?

I'm trying but the required double lobotomy is a real sticking issue for me (assuming that we would all need one to have such a world).

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

By the way ... um ... where in the ten commandments (or infact in the Bible as a whole) does it say "thou shalt not get high" or "Toke not of the Reefer"?

Gareth37

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Like a small communist village?

I'm trying but the required double lobotomy is a real sticking issue for me (assuming that we would all need one to have such a world).

By the way ... um ... where in the ten commandments (or infact in the Bible as a whole) does it say "thou shalt not get high" or "Toke not of the Reefer"?

Fascism/Communism/Business and Media Controlled Manufactured Society, what is the difference?

If everyone on earth followed the laws of scripture there would be no need for your man made society rules.

If you are high with the grace of the Holy Spirit you don't need any other artificial man made substance that just brings complication and unhappiness.

Hivemind187

Gareth37 wrote: »

Fascism/Communism/Business and Media Controlled Manufactured Society, what is the difference?

Well its just you original comment read very much like a manifesto for a limp version of communism. The kind of thing hippies try on a small French vineyard for a couple of years until it all goes a bit Animal Farm on them.

How you got "Media Controlled Manufactured Society" from what I said is beyond me. Fascinating though.

Gareth37 wrote: »

If everyone on earth followed the laws of scripture there would be no need for your man made society rules.

lol, I've never claimed that they were "my" rules but hey, if you want to give me the total credit for providing everything you currently have then I'm not opposed (can I start taxing you?).

Anyway, I fail to see how a strict adherence to scriptural law is even possible considering the contradictions of the source material and the flaws it would develop inherently from that.

I also assume that your statement (because there was no discussion implied in your OP) is to be taken as read and that you fully support what you have said?

As such I would ask you (and the other christians on this forum) if you can actually stomach meting out the punishments of said scriptural law - they were intended to be carried out by the townsfolk. This would include;

- Murder of Homosexuals
- Murder of Daughters whose hymen had been broken before the day of her marriage (no other way to be certain of virginity since there cant be any doctors etc since the body must remain intact)
- Murder of theives
- Murder of those not of your faith (heresey)
- Murder of those deemed to be "possessed" (likely schizophrenic or epileptic but you can not be certain)
- Murder of those who eat the wrong thing at the wrong time
- Murder of those taking the Lords Name in vein (which I assume is either Yehova, Yahweh or Jesus Christ)
- Having a peculiar problem with date trees.

There are a few more but I'll leave it to other better versed posters to fill in the blanks. My point is simple - are you willing to murder these people yourself for your perfect vision of the world?

Gareth37 wrote: »

If you are high with the grace of the Holy Spirit you don't need any other artificial man made substance that just brings complication and unhappiness.

I tried getting high on the Holy spirit, I found it was insubstantial and without any robust lift.

Cannabis is a plant and if God is responsible for all creation he is responsible for that plant being there. Coca leaf (the basic vegetable source of cocaine) is also a naturally occuring product. Opium poppies (heroin), Peyote, psilocybin mushrooms and a range of other psychadelics are all natural products and I believe I have mentioned the most widely used drugs (save for MDMA, LSD and Ketamine which I agree are manufactured synthetics). within the parameters of your statement God is responsible for the complicatiosn and unhappiness since he created them.

Gareth37

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Well its just you original comment read very much like a manifesto for a limp version of communism. The kind of thing hippies try on a small French vineyard for a couple of years until it all goes a bit Animal Farm on them.

How you got "Media Controlled Manufactured Society" from what I said is beyond me. Fascinating though.



lol, I've never claimed that they were "my" rules but hey, if you want to give me the total credit for providing everything you currently have then I'm not opposed (can I start taxing you?).

Anyway, I fail to see how a strict adherence to scriptural law is even possible considering the contradictions of the source material and the flaws it would develop inherently from that.

I also assume that your statement (because there was no discussion implied in your OP) is to be taken as read and that you fully support what you have said?

As such I would ask you (and the other christians on this forum) if you can actually stomach meting out the punishments of said scriptural law - they were intended to be carried out by the townsfolk. This would include;

- Murder of Homosexuals
- Murder of Daughters whose hymen had been broken before the day of her marriage (no other way to be certain of virginity since there cant be any doctors etc since the body must remain intact)
- Murder of theives
- Murder of those not of your faith (heresey)
- Murder of those deemed to be "possessed" (likely schizophrenic or epileptic but you can not be certain)
- Murder of those who eat the wrong thing at the wrong time
- Murder of those taking the Lords Name in vein (which I assume is either Yehova, Yahweh or Jesus Christ)
- Having a peculiar problem with date trees.

There are a few more but I'll leave it to other better versed posters to fill in the blanks. My point is simple - are you willing to murder these people yourself for your perfect vision of the world?



I tried getting high on the Holy spirit, I found it was insubstantial and without any robust lift.

Cannabis is a plant and if God is responsible for all creation he is responsible for that plant being there. Coca leaf (the basic vegetable source of cocaine) is also a naturally occuring product. Opium poppies (heroin), Peyote, psilocybin mushrooms and a range of other psychadelics are all natural products and I believe I have mentioned the most widely used drugs (save for MDMA, LSD and Ketamine which I agree are manufactured synthetics). within the parameters of your statement God is responsible for the complicatiosn and unhappiness since he created them.

Scripture doesn't mention murdering anybody. If somebody has wronged you then you tell them face to face that they wronged you. If they don't repent for that wrong then you tell everybody else.

The scripture does not say murder people who commits sin - it says preach the Gospel to them. If they do not listen then judgement day will come as it comes for me and you.

Im sure cannabis was not created for use in the way that it is used today. If you need drugs to make you happy then you are not happy in life? Why are you not happy in life? Why do you have to enter a state of man made euphoria?

Hivemind187

Gareth37 wrote: »

Scripture doesn't mention murdering anybody. If somebody has wronged you then you tell them face to face that they wronged you. If they don't repent for that wrong then you tell everybody else.

Leviticus.

Gareth37 wrote: »

The scripture does not say murder people who commits sin - it says preach the Gospel to them. If they do not listen then judgement day will come as it comes for me and you.

Leviticus.

Gareth37 wrote: »

Im sure cannabis was not created for use in the way that it is used today.

Pray tell, what was its use? It would have been created by the Lord who gave dominion over all the vegetable life and animal life to man did he not?

Gareth37 wrote: »

If you need drugs to make you happy then you are not happy in life?

Grammatically thats not a question but I'll answer what I think you were getting at anyway.

I never said I take drugs, thats an assumption on your part.

If someone needs drugs to make them happy then I would assume that they are suffering a chemical imbalance of serotonin or another brain chemical that is leaving them depressed and as such SSRI's or MAOI's as well as cannabis have all been statisically shown to improve those individuals quality of life - religion might do the same thing but its interesting to note that Prozac is cheaper.

If someone wants drugs to be happy then they are a recreational user and a pre-existing unhappiness is unnecessary.

Those abusing drugs (addiction to the preclusion of any other activity) do statisically have a higher rate of depression and psychological disorders however it is not true of every case and therefore your argument falls down again.

Gareth37 wrote: »

Why are you not happy in life?

I didnt say I was did I? Thats another assumption on your part.

Gareth37 wrote: »

Why do you have to enter a state of man made euphoria?

And again, I never said I did. I am merely discussing your own statement.

However, were I to enter a state of man made euphoria I would say it was because I was in intense pain from a chronic condition such as arthritis or Hodgekins or an acute condition such as a stab wound or broken leg. There is also the possibility that I was in the pub and had drank too much wine or beer. It happens when you are out long enough and enjoying yourself enough. No necessity exists.

ironingbored

Gareth37 wrote: »

Scripture doesn't mention murdering anybody.

You obviously haven't read the bible to any great extent.

Kings 2:23-24
Numbers 31:1-18

Both specifically relate to murdering children.

Gareth37

ironingbored wrote: »

You obviously haven't read the bible to any great extent.

Kings 2:23-24
Numbers 31:1-18

Both specifically relate to murdering children.

Do they encourage followers of Christ to murder children?

seansmith06

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

Imagine a world where religion does not exist, where everyone is aware of the randomness and futility of our existence, where life has no meaning other than the hear and now, where everyone is equal.

Imagine a world without religious conflicts, a world with an understanding of drugs and the reasons that people use them, a world where adultery is a private matter.

Imagine a race of people that would be capable of living in the firm knowledge that life is ultimately meaningless and that there is nobody looking down from the sky. Capable of dealing with life in the knowledge that there is nothing after death.

Impossible.

It is the irony of the human condition. I 'm not sure if Man created God or if God created Man, but I do know this: Religion is a crutch that people use to get them through their lives, whether they are born into it or converted to it. It doesn't really matter whether or not there is a God; what matters is whether you think you need the comfort of believing in a God. Most people want this comfort.

I am uncomfortable.

Dudess

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another

Yeah, that would be a world without religion.

Hivemind187

Gareth37 wrote: »

Do they encourage followers of Christ to murder children?

Kings 2:23-24

Bible wrote:

2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

(Pretty clear that this was done in the name of the Lord and it certainly does appear to be saying that if kids call you baldy you can set the grizzlys on them).

Numbers 31:1-18

Bible wrote:

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Here we have Moses ordering that the "little ones" be slaughtered.

This is the bloke that gave you the core rules of christianity - the 10 commandments including the wonderful "Thou Shalt not commit Murder".

I think its pretty clear that God is not merely conding or encouraging the murder of children by his followers but actively ordering them to. Also the enslavement and sexual exploitation of the women folk.

Christ, according to christian doctrine was not only the son of god, he was god and therefore yes, it does encourage followers of christ to slaughter chiildren.

With bears.

Galvasean

Welcome to a world... without fun.

jimbling

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, that would be a world without religion.

ya, wonder what people could possibly fight over if we didn't have religion :pac: :pac:

What I find funniest is that Christians seem to actually believe that there is this possibility of utopia if everyone converted to there beliefs.
Even when all around them they blatantly ignore the scriptures and just do whatever pleases them.
Violence, greed, adultery etc etc are all rampant in Christianity.

Hivemind187

Its an interesting point.

A religious utopia would be a rather one sided utopia (yes, I know thats kind of a contradiction). The requirement ot persecute those who do not conform to the proscribed standard would mean that while it might appear to be bliss for some it would be a living nightmare of deceit, fear and paranoia for those who do not meet the standards (homosexuals, atheists etc).

Delirium

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, that would be a world without religion.

Galvasean wrote: »

Welcome to a world... without fun.

Out of thanks currently. So, thanks to you two.:)

Religion doesn't work for everyone, so you can't say live according to the bible is the solution for everyone.
And as has been pointed out already, plenty of passages have murder as the punishment for a sin.

Goduznt Xzst

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Have a read:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

Societal health is proportional to the level of organic atheism in a Country.

Ever been to Sweden? 85% of the people there are Atheists.

We really hear a lot about the violence and crimes in Sweden don't we :rolleyes:

In fact the last time I heard Sweden being mentioned in the news was when a bunch of fundi religious people where mad at them about a simple drawing.

Gareth37 wrote: »

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

Gareth37, I'm curious, what form of Christianity do you follow?

Galvasean

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

In fact the last time I heard Sweden being mentioned in the news was when a bunch of fundi religious people where mad at them about a simple drawing.

I'm pretty sure that was Denmark.

The last time I heard of Sweden in the news was when a bunch of fundi religious people were made about them... something to do with vacuum cleaners (don't worry it was only the Phelps guy and his crew. They arent a real religion).

Fanny Cradock

Probably the reason that we don't hear much about crime in Sweden is because we live in Ireland. Just a thought.

According to the EU crime and safety survey, in 2004, Sweden had above average rate of people victimised by crime (based on 10 common crimes) on one or more occasions. Sadly, Ireland topped that chart.

http://www.gallup-europe.be/euics/Xz38/downloads/EUICS%20-%20The%20Burden%20of%20Crime%20in%20the%20EU.pdf


Assuming Sweden was the paradise you imply (the stats say otherwise), it's interesting that you seem happy to draw the conclusion that this is due to the atheism of it's populace rather than more obvious factors such as financial security.

jimbling

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Have a read:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

Thanks for that.

rockbeer

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Assuming Sweden was the paradise you imply (the stats say otherwise), it's interesting that you seem happy to draw the conclusion that this is due to the atheism of it's populace rather than more obvious factors such as financial security.

Indeed, but it's quite possible that their progressive social structure has a lot to do with them not being stuck in the religious framework that has served to hold most of Europe back.

Hell, we can't even get the church out of our schools. What hope is there?

Galvasean

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Assuming Sweden was the paradise you imply (the stats say otherwise), it's interesting that you seem happy to draw the conclusion that this is due to the atheism of it's populace rather than more obvious factors such as financial security.

This is the part where someone says religious people lack financial security because they are poorly educated (their religiousness being a bi product of this).

Think I've seen this debate before..

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

This is the part where someone says religious people lack financial security because they are poorly educated (their religiousness being a bi product of this).

Think I've seen this debate before..

rockbeer wrote: »

Indeed, but it's quite possible that their progressive social structure has a lot to do with them not being stuck in the religious framework that has served to hold most of Europe back.

Hell, we can't even get the church out of our schools. What hope is there?

Ooooh.... :pac:

Dades

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Assuming Sweden was the paradise you imply (the stats say otherwise), it's interesting that you seem happy to draw the conclusion that this is due to the atheism of it's populace rather than more obvious factors such as financial security.

The may be corollaries to be drawn there too.

rockbeer

Galvasean wrote: »

Ooooh.... :pac:

I believe in your psychic powers... be my messiah!

Galvasean

rockbeer wrote: »

I believe in your psychic powers... be my messiah!

Jesus had a beard they say. I too have a beard...

Fanny Cradock

rockbeer wrote: »

Indeed, but it's quite possible that their progressive social structure has a lot to do with them not being stuck in the religious framework that has served to hold most of Europe back.

And it's quite possible that it's not. First you would have to provide some hard evidence that Europe has been held back and this is due to the overall deleterious influence of the religious framework you speak of. Again, of the 17 countries sampled, Sweden is above average in term of hate crimes reported. Even if you could prove such a thing, based on the stats in the link I provided, it would only be a case for secular governance (something I'm not opposed to) and not that atheism is positive for society in terms of criminality. I certainly wouldn't state that the normatively Christian countries that prop up the charts is due to their Christianity.

Goduznt Xzst

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that was Denmark.

Sweden did it also last year. I believe it was an image of Mohammeds head on a dog. As a side Denmark has the 3rd highest percentage of Athiests in the world.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Assuming Sweden was the paradise you imply

You may assume that but I do not. I never said Sweden was a paradise, I said that societal health in general has been increasing with the adoption of Atheism, in contrast to countries where religious adoption is increasing

Dudess

Few things, in my experience anyway, are as hate-filled as the old testament.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but why do people who abide by the old testament call themselves christians? Wasn't Christ not around for the old testament?

rockbeer

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And it's quite possible that it's not.

Indeed, and since the chances are neither of us are going to do the research let's leave it there.

Fanny Cradock

Dades wrote: »

The may be corollaries to be drawn there too.

Possibly. It certainly doesn't seem ridiculous to infer that religious adherence decreases with wealth and social security.

Fanny Cradock

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I said that societal health in general has been increasing with the adoption of Atheism, in contrast to countries where religious adoption is increasing

Really, I must have missed that :pac: All I saw was where you specifically mentioned crime and violence in Sweden.

Dudess wrote: »

Few things, in my experience anyway, are as hate-filled as the old testament.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but why do people who abide by the old testament call themselves christians? Wasn't Christ not around for the old testament?

No, he wasn't. Christians believe that the Jesus fulfilled the old covenant (agreement) between mankind and god and established an new one as seen in the NT.

rockbeer wrote: »

Indeed, and since the chances are neither of us are going to do the research let's leave it there.

Heartily agreed.

rockbeer

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

No, he wasn't. Christians believe that the Jesus fulfilled the old covenant (agreement) between mankind and god and established an new one as seen in the NT.

Wasn't this where infallible and omnipotent god mysteriously changed his mind about a lot of things?

Galvasean

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Possibly. It certainly doesn't seem ridiculous to infer that religious adherence decreases with wealth and social security.

Indeed. A rich and secure person probably doesn't need to pray for as many things. (Although prayers of thanks would seem more appropriate.) I suppose a common belief among the rich and successful is that "I got where I am because I worked for it!" as opposed to "Thank God for helping me out".

AtomicHorror

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

In which homosexuality is a sin and "sufferers" are morally obliged to abstain and seek therapy. In which science must be subservient to an over-riding Truth which must be adhered to irrespective of evidence or reason. In which morals do not reflect the will of the people but the mindless will of a book claimed to be infallible and which can never be questioned. In which authority, not reason, rules.

I'll pass, thanks.

Fanny Cradock

rockbeer wrote: »

Wasn't this where infallible and omnipotent god mysteriously changed his mind about a lot of things?

One could argue that God didn't change, but we did. To this end, there isn't necessarily any suggestion that a change in God's interaction with us is a change of mind, rather this is simply one part of a larger plan.

Your question is about the nature of God is not one for this thread, but it certainly might be worth looking at some other time.

Fanny Cradock

AtomicHorror wrote: »

In which science must be subservient to an over-riding Truth which must be adhered to irrespective of evidence or reason.

Many of the greatest scientists don't/ didn't feel that their belief in God is/ was the impediment that you report.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

In which morals do not reflect the will of the people but the mindless will of a book claimed to be infallible and which can never be questioned. In which authority, not reason, rules.

In retrospect, the will of the people hasn't always been the correct decision, has it? As for reason, it simply a slave to desire, and not all desires are good or healthy.

t-ha

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

Sounds boring.

As for Christianity, we've had nearly 2000 years of that social experiment - epic fail on achieving the above tbh.

Hivemind187

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Many of the greatest scientists don't/ didn't feel that their belief in God is/ was the impediment that you report.

Ummmmmhmmmmm. I see the Einstein, Darwin and Hawking fallacy rearing its ugly head again.

I think you'll find that the majority of the scientist you refer to will have consigned god to the margins (god of the gaps) and while they might still believe this is likely down to their brain wiring being predisposed towards religious or supernatural experiences. There is no causation between intellect (and subsequently the ability to deal with abstract of complex subjects) and religious feelings, correlation yes. The majority of scientists tend towards either the atheistic or agnostic end of the spectrum in the face of relentless erosion of the religious doctrines under scrutiny.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

In retrospect, the will of the people hasn't always been the correct decision, has it? As for reason, it simply a slave to desire, and not all desires are good or healthy.

are you saying homosexuals have unhealthy desires?

AtomicHorror

I notice you did not refute my comment on homosexuals.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Many of the greatest scientists don't/ didn't feel that their belief in God is/ was the impediment that you report.

Many of the greatest scientist of the past did not face science which challenged their faith. To Newton, the clockwork nature of the solar system spoke to him of God. It was not contradicted by scripture. But how many great scientists of the modern age can you point to who adhere to religion? We've delved deeper, and while I would still maintain that science does not categorically falsify scripture, it is striking how many Christians pick and choose what science to accept based upon their faith. We are making people uncomfortable, and rather than simply use their personal reason, many are choosing to allow words set in print to dictate to them.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

In retrospect, the will of the people hasn't always been the correct decision, has it?

In retrospect, historically, the will of the people has not been informed. Historically, it has not been driven by reason. Historically, it has been moulded, even dictated, by authority, by lies and by fear.

Historically, the church was just another authority in a long lineage.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As for reason, it simply a slave to desire, and not all desires are good or healthy.

Emotions may be followed without reason, but reason is meaningless without emotions to place values upon things. Not all desires are good and healthy, but what is good and bad should be judged by our valuation of consequences, not by dogma. Not by a book written in a time, environment, context that does not resemble our world.

jimbling

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Possibly. It certainly doesn't seem ridiculous to infer that religious adherence decreases with wealth and social security.

And from this, I assume you see wealth and social security a driver in people been corrupted by the devil and worshipping the false idol that is materialism? Or something along those lines.

Realistically the reason is simple. The more peoples lives suck the more they need some sort of excuse for living.

Fanny Cradock

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Ummmmmhmmmmm. I see the Einstein, Darwin and Hawking fallacy rearing its ugly head again.

I think you'll find that the majority of the scientist you refer to will have consigned god to the margins (god of the gaps) and while they might still believe this is likely down to their brain wiring being predisposed towards religious or supernatural experiences. There is no causation between intellect (and subsequently the ability to deal with abstract of complex subjects) and religious feelings, correlation yes. The majority of scientists tend towards either the atheistic or agnostic end of the spectrum in the face of relentless erosion of the religious doctrines under scrutiny.

What fallacy? Stop trying to pre-empt my position. I suggest that you refrain from doing the same for the scientists you have mentioned.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

are you saying homosexuals have unhealthy desires?

I have no idea why you are mentioning homosexuals. I guess this is a lame attempt to get me to say 'yes, homosexuals are filthy beasts'.

Really, the manner in which you always associate the negative with Christianity and your insistence on speaking for others becomes tiresome.

LordSutch

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one.

John Lennon 1940-1980 RIP

Fanny Cradock

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I notice you did not refute my comment on homosexuals.

At the moment I don't have a strong opinion on it based on my faith. At a personal level, I'm not bothered by homosexuals, I'm not uncomfortable in their presence, and other than the obvious, I don't see them as any different to myself. At this point I don't suppose it would help my defence to mention that some of my friends are black gay.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Many of the greatest scientist of the past did not face science which challenged their faith. To Newton, the clockwork nature of the solar system spoke to him of God. It was not contradicted by scripture. But how many great scientists of the modern age can you point to who adhere to religion? We've delved deeper, and while I would still maintain that science does not categorically falsify scripture, it is striking how many Christians pick and choose what science to accept based upon their faith. We are making people uncomfortable, and rather than simply use their personal reason, many are choosing to allow words set in print to dictate to them.

And you know, this is you imposing you own logic on their belief, or what they really should believe. I don't deny that there is very strong tendencies to agnosticism and atheism in the upper echelons of the scientific community. However, there is also evidence to show that the belief in the metaphysical hasn't really fluctuated in the last 70(?) years amongst 'lesser' scientists - with 40/60 in favour of the notion of some thpe of metaphysical agent(s) etc. (I'd have to dig up the exact details of the survey.)

AtomicHorror

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

At the moment I don't have a strong opinion on it based on my faith. At a personal level, I'm not bothered by homosexuals, I'm not uncomfortable in their presence, and other than the obvious, I don't see them as any different to myself. At this point I don't suppose it would help my defence to mention that some of my friends are black gay.

Don't get me wrong now, I'm not accusing you nor any specific Christian of homophobia or anything resembling it. But the scriptural position seems pretty clear, and your personal feelings and personal reasoning on the matter are going to be overridden by an unquestionable book in the perfect Christian world. Does that not bother you?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And you know, this is you imposing you own logic on their belief, or what they really should believe. I don't deny that there is very strong tendencies to agnosticism and atheism in the upper echelons of the scientific community. However, there is also evidence to show that the belief in the metaphysical hasn't really fluctuated in the last 70(?) years amongst 'lesser' scientists - with 40/60 in favour of the notion of some thpe of metaphysical agent(s) etc. (I'd have to dig up the exact details of the survey.)

Well here I think we'd be arguing over statistics neither of us has actually looked at. I'm not sure how I'm imposing my logic on the beliefs of others above though. I'm basing my assertion about the picking and choosing on conversations I've had with Christians. My take on Newton his not an unconventional interpretation, although it's vague.

SV

Gareth37 wrote: »

without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Not campaigning too well there are ya?

Fanny Cradock

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Don't get me wrong now, I'm not accusing you nor any specific Christian of homophobia or anything resembling it. But the scriptural position seems pretty clear, and your personal feelings and personal reasoning on the matter are going to be overridden by an unquestionable book in the perfect Christian world. Does that not bother you?

Thank you for not making such assumptions. As for your question, I feel that the answer something that I will have to investigate for myself. It may bean that I'll turn into a raging homophobic fundie in a matter of months (although I would maintain that one would have to be homophobic before-hand – something people are quite capable of being without religion), it may mean that I don't agree with homosexual acts (much in the same way as adultery, for example) but don't see anything wrong with being homosexual, or it may mean something entirely different. For now, I really can't give you an answer.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Well here I think we'd be arguing over statistics neither of us has actually looked at. I'm not sure how I'm imposing my logic on the beliefs of others above though. I'm basing my assertion about the picking and choosing on conversations I've had with Christians. My take on Newton his not an unconventional interpretation, although it's vague.

I'm sure I could dig it up if you reeeeealy want!

I believe that you have imposed your position is by devalued theirs. You seem to be of the opinion that they would feel any different if they were transported 50 or 500 years to the present. I don't believe it is at all fair to create these 'what if' scenarios. Get me?

Anyway, though it is only vaguely connected to this our conversation, there is a book I have been meaning to read called The Meaning of Life According to Our Centuries Greatest Thinkers. In this book the author wrote to 250 leading intellectuals, scientists, writers, philosophers etc., and posed the simple question: What is the meaning of life? From what I gather, some had very definite views (this probably included 'no meaning'), others fudged their response, some admitted that they didn't know and some wrote back asking for an answer. You might get a kick out of it.

toiletduck

Camelot wrote: »

Imagine there's...

You should have posted the lyrics which seem to crop up in the states. "No religion" gets changed to "one religion".

KnifeWRENCH

toiletduck wrote: »

You should have posted the lyrics which seem to crop up in the states. "No religion" gets changed to "one religion".

:eek: Oh no, please tell me that's not true. Of course it is entirely plausible and believable, but I really don't want that to be true.

John Lennon must be turning in his grave. At a very high speed.

evil-monkey

Gareth37 wrote: »

Imagine a world where everyone loved one another, where competivness and greed did not exist, where everyone helped each other to survive materially, where everyone was equal.

Imagine a world without violence or crime, without drugs, without adultry..........

Welcome to Christianity.

Read the Bible for the Bible speaks the truth.

i think this post pretty much sums why it is that people are getting sick of religion...

Húrin

rockbeer wrote: »

Indeed, but it's quite possible that their progressive social structure has a lot to do with them not being stuck in the religious framework that has served to hold most of Europe back.

Ever notice how progressive Northern European states like Scandinavian countries, Germany and The Netherlands were traditionally the strongholds of the Protestant work ethic? I think this is the root reason for the cultural differences within Europe that have manifested themselves in their contemporary social structures.

However, it is important to note some facts.

Sweden is no paradise. It is beyond the potential of humans to create paradise.

Entrenched religion does little to prevent social problems. You can learn this from reading the Gospels' accounts of the effects of entrenched religion in Palestine.

People often feel that they do not need God if everything is available to them with their abundant money. They feel like they are in total control of their lives. However this is an illusion. They need God just as much as the poor do. And blessed are the poor for they recognise this!