2009 ISSF Rule Changes

Sparks

New changes coming into the ISSF rulebook next year, including things like the trigger weight for centrefire pistol coming down to 1000g which doesn't yet affect too many Irish shooters, but also things which affect all Irish ISSF shooters, like the introduction of the counting of inner tens as the new first step in tie-breaking (countback remains, but is now the second step, after the inner tens are counted).

It's not been confirmed or published yet by ISSF, though it's due into the rulebooks in seven weeks, but it would mean that scoring machines and megalink electronic targets need software upgrades and anyone scoring a match by hand needs a gauge that can measure inner tens (there isn't one yet being made for air rifle so far as I know).

Sparks

Further notes on these:
http://www.australiancynic.com/NRC_information0804.pdf

Expected changes to the ISSF Rules and Regulations – 2009
While there will be a number of changes to the format of the ISSF Rules & Regulations, most of these are due to relocation of safety rules and those specific rules that apply to both Pistol and Rifle to section 6: General Technical Rules.

There are very few changes that will affect the average shooter:

Tie-breaking by count-back
Inner 10s will be the first step for those ties resolved by count-back.

• For ties not resolved by the number of inner 10s, the next step will be by count-back in 10-shot series (previously the first step)
• For ties still not resolved, the next step is by the number of 10s, 9s, 8s, etc.
• This will involve scoring of inner 10s, and a change to the Register (Score) Cards

Trigger weight for ISSF Centre Fire pistols
The minimum trigger weight for ISSF Centre Fire pistols is expected to be 1000g

• It is not a requirement that the trigger weight is reduced from the present 1360gm. Trigger weights may be left at their existing setting (particularly if also used for Service or WA1500).
• This applies ONLY to ISSF – there is no change to the minimum trigger weight for other events
• Shooters are advised that this is an expected change and shooters should not reduce the trigger weight of their ISSF Centre Fire pistol/s until the rule change is confirmed in the ISSF Rules and Regulations.
• Reducing the trigger weight of CF pistols needs expert advice:
  • any modification to sear engagement should only be undertaken by a competent pistolsmith.
  • winding back the mainspring tension on most revolvers has little effect on trigger weight, but will increase problems with misfires and malfunctions.
  • reducing the trigger weight on semi-automatic pistols may increase the chance of maxims (i.e. multiple shots for one trigger release).

ISSF Finals
Penalty for late reporting for Finals

• A 2-points penalty will be applied to a shooter who is late reporting for a Finals. The Reporting Time for Finals is unchanged at 20 minutes before the published Starting Time for the Final.

Penalty for discharging gas during Preparation Time for 10m Finals

• A 2-points penalty will be applied to a shooter who discharges gas during 10m Finals Preparation Time. Although not permitted in PA competitions, this new rule recognises that at ISSF World Cups, etc. it is not unusual to have approved media personnel forward of the firing line during Preparation Time for Finals

rrpc

The option to change tie-breaking rules is already available in the Megalink software.

Sparks

The new ISSF rules are now available.

Sparks

Two new pistol disciplines - 10m 5-shot Air Pistol and 10m 5-shot Standard Air Pistol (one is 1 shot each into 5 targets, the other is 5 shots into 1 target).

foresight

This is great news:)

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Two new pistol disciplines - 10m 5-shot Air Pistol and 10m 5-shot Standard Air Pistol (one is 1 shot each into 5 targets, the other is 5 shots into 1 target).

The five target air pistol was already in the rules. See 8.20

packas

Hi guys,

Firstly I must admit I know very little about ISSF shooting. I've got a question though:- Can I shoot my CZ 75 SP-01 shadow in 9x19mm in an ISSF discipline. Probably won't be as competitive as those guys with the custom pistols but then again I never plan to enter the olympics

thanks
Pat.

Sparks

Short answer, yes.
Long answer, you could technically enter the ISSF Centrefire Pistol match using a CZ75 loaded with 5 rounds only of 9x19 (or any other calibre up to&including .38 so long as it meets the range safety rules). But:

• It's not on the olympic program and hasn't been since '72
• The CZ will never be competitive even at a club level for that event because of the calibre not the custom/noncustom-ness of the pistol
• The lads shooting .32 will have a far easier time of it because of higher accuracy and lower recoil even at that level.
• Not too many ranges in Ireland are shooting this discipline at the moment

I'd add that it's damn hard, but sod it, why else would anyone shoot other than for the challange?

Bananaman

Sparks,

I sense a challenge in your point:

The CZ will never be competitive even at a club level for that event because of the calibre not the custom/noncustom-ness of the pistol

As there are currently no competitors in ISSF centrefire, if there was to be then the majority of people would be shooting 9x19, .38 and .38 super as that is what they have - so the Shadow would be more than competitive.

I, however, have a Glock 34 (9x19) and will kick it's ass. At my last practice, I had 50 shots, strong hand only at 10m and had 10 off the X, 5 of which were 9's.

May be a long way from Olympic qualifying standard but lets face it - none of us are going to the Olympics - to start with we are all too old and none of us could afford it.

B'Man

It wasn't me!

Bananaman wrote: »

Sparks,

I sense a challenge in your point:



As there are currently no competitors in ISSF centrefire, if there was to be then the majority of people would be shooting 9x19, .38 and .38 super as that is what they have - so the Shadow would be more than competitive.

I, however, have a Glock 34 (9x19) and will kick it's ass. At my last practice, I had 50 shots, strong hand only at 10m and had 10 off the X, 5 of which were 9's.

May be a long way from Olympic qualifying standard but lets face it - none of us are going to the Olympics - to start with we are all too old and none of us could afford it.

B'Man

To be entirely fair though B'man, people will use what's competitive if they intend to stick with it, and only use what they have if it's a passing interest. So against the guys who're set on it, who will get the more suitable pistols in more suitable calibres, it's not going to be competitive. I expect that's part of what Sparks meant, but he can say that himself. Fair fecks if you can beat good shooters using .32 with a 9mm Glock, but there's a reason the lighter stuff is more popular.

Bananaman

Is anyone currently shooting .32?

I dunno if I can beat them - if there was a centrefire competition I would find out. As there would be plenty of the larger calibres in the competition I would not be out on my own anyway.

Right now - I doubt I could beat someone who has been practicing for this discipline - as I do very little one handed shooting - have only started to practice it of late as I have been giving away scores because my strong hand was not good and my weak hand was terrible. I used to dread details where they were required.

I am now shooting reliably with the strong hand - I will hit what I aim at without loitering on the target too long (< 1 second) - there is still occasionally a small degree of flinch.

With my weak hand I am still very slow - will take at least 3-4 seconds to break the shot in order to "know" It will be on. I used to have a terrible shake but the muscles are getting used to it now. Staying on target too long will bring it back.

I assume .38 Special (.357) is allowed. Is it only semi automatic or is revolver also allowed or is that a different class? A lot of the centrefire revolvers are .38 special so they could be used also?

You don't have to be competitive on, or even interested in, the international scene to be competitive on the domestic scene.

people will use what's competitive if they intend to stick with it, and only use what they have if it's a passing interest

they may have little choice but to use what they have.

B'Man

fat-tony

I think there are a couple of shooters in N.I. at the moment, but there are no suitable facilities in operation here in the south.
The precision stage of centre fire ISSF competition is at 25 metres and the 10 ring is 50mm (2 inches). There are six series of five shots each.

The rapid-fire stage is shot at the same distance, but the 10 ring is 100mm (4 inches). Again there are six series of five shots, but each of the five shots in a series is fired at a target which faces you for three seconds, then turns away from you for seven seconds etc. An alternative to turning targets is a system of red and green lights controlling the sequence of firing.

Sparks

It's not a challange B'man, I'm just stating the rules. Look, if you want to try it with a 9mm, then it's pretty easy to try and might be a bit of fun. Take a standard IPSC popper:


Set it in place, walk 25 metres away and fire at the circular bit, one-handed.

If you can hit the circular bit like that, every time, then you'd be competitive on a national level (the circle in the popper is only 3mm wider than the 7 ring in 25m pistol). To be competitive on an international level, it's a fair bit harder.

Bananaman

I'll try that for a dollar and I only have one good eye

Everyone in IPSC shooting would expect to hit a popper at 25m, strong hand only, off balance and on the move. If they stopped and took a whole 3 seconds to do it they would guarantee it.

(That is a large popper - we also have mini poppers)

I'll see about getting a few lads in the club to hang a few ISSF targets at 25m one of the days and see how we do. If I get them all in the 10 ring with the Glock I'll post a picture - of the target - the Glock frightens small children and tupperware enthusiasts.

(The only problem with 25m is that I have to wait until it's all over to tell if I even hit the target - my front sight is only 200-300% the size of the entire target at that range)

Can I wear regular clothes and shoes or am I supposed to wear a sunvisor and pirate patch


B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Is anyone currently shooting .32?

Some Defence Forces people used to, but I've not heard of anyone doing so recently.

I am now shooting reliably with the strong hand - I will hit what I aim at without loitering on the target too long (< 1 second) - there is still occasionally a small degree of flinch.

It's not about how long you loiter though, it's about where the round hits the target. The two aren't directly linked.

I assume .38 Special (.357) is allowed.

.38 special used to be the main round used, but it cannot be a magnum load.

Is it only semi automatic or is revolver also allowed or is that a different class? A lot of the centrefire revolvers are .38 special so they could be used also?

Semi-auto or revolver with a five-round capacity. Same class. Revolvers tend to be less common though, especially these days.

You don't have to be competitive on, or even interested in, the international scene to be competitive on the domestic scene.

No, but why bother about beating five people in a hayshed in the middle of nowhere? You aim for the top, not the middle ground.

Sparks

If you can hit it 60 times out of 60 shots B'man, you're competitive. And well done. Go to a national match at that standard and you're not going to embarress yourself.
Now, to win, you'll have to do a bit better, you understand

60x7 = 420. The point where you're getting good is ~500ish. The point where you're winning matches is a tad higher. I'm not saying this to put you off - just to say, don't think it's terribly easy or you'll set yourself up to feel quite disappointed. Don't forget, several of the fullbore pistol shooters out there are trying the ISSF stuff and even when they step down to .22 and lose most of the recoil, they find it's not as easy as it looks and it takes a while for them to get up to speed on it.

Bananaman

As long as it was a duly Authorised Hayshed ........

Sparks

Oh, we're authorised

Bananaman

You could get quite a bit of turf in that shed

Sparks

You used to be able to. Then it got cladding put on the walls, a floor put in at mid-level to give the upstairs range and downstairs changing rooms/prep area/stats office/classroom, some central heating for the summer for training for bisley, and so on. Took ten years to do, all told.
Mind you, even in year one, it was a working range so you don't need things to be hugely fancy.

packas

Sparks wrote: »

It's not a challange B'man, I'm just stating the rules. Look, if you want to try it with a 9mm, then it's pretty easy to try and might be a bit of fun. Take a standard IPSC popper:


Set it in place, walk 25 metres away and fire at the circular bit, one-handed.

If you can hit the circular bit like that, every time, then you'd be competitive on a national level (the circle in the popper is only 3mm wider than the 7 ring in 25m pistol). To be competitive on an international level, it's a fair bit harder.

I can manage that single handed (both strong & support). Is there a time limit to the shooting details?

fat-tony

See my earlier post for dimensions of 10 ring and course of fire http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58069011&postcount=13
The precision stage series of five shots is 5 minutes each, repeated six times. Again, it's not enough to hit an 8 inch "popper". The seven ring is that size on the ISSF target. The ten ring is only 2 inches. The inner ten ring is 1 inch. At 25 metres, not 10 metres!

Kryten

There was a centerfire ISSF type match at the Midlands back in February. All the guys just used their sporting pistols and faired ok. If I can recall, the winner and the runner up were using the STI Eagle in 9mm, scoring in the low 500's. I was using the CZ75 TS in 9mm and had a very good precision stage, but developed a slight flinch halfway through the rapid stage. Still finished 4th. I think I was around the 470-480 mark.

rrpc

Kryten wrote: »

There was a centerfire ISSF type match at the Midlands back in February. All the guys just used their sporting pistols and faired ok. If I can recall, the winner and the runner up were using the STI Eagle in 9mm, scoring in the low 500's. I was using the CZ75 TS in 9mm and had a very good precision stage, but developed a slight flinch halfway through the rapid stage. Still finished 4th. I think I was around the 470-480 mark.

To be fair Kryten, it's hard to know if those scores were indicative or not seeing as the equipment broke down and the timing went a bit pete tong.

We ran the same competition in Rathdrum if you remember for .22 and the scores were pretty good. If I remember correctly, you had a 527 and there were two others over 500.

Realistically, using anything other than the right gear is not going to be sustainable. Regardless of what people might think, we are getting very competitive in this sport. Quite a few now are within a very short distance of going international, the distance would have to be made up by proper coaching which we are working towards. As it is, we have an air pistol guy going to Intershoot in Holland in January, so it's not that far off.

rrpc

To provide some encouragement for those who might be interested in taking up centre fire pistol.

The World Record was set last year at the European Championships in Grenada, Spain by Mikhail Nestruev of Russia. He shot a 594 (296 in precision and 298 in rapid).

However second place was a score of 584 and 10th place was a 580.

Last place (37th) was 544. We don't send anyone unless they have acheived a score that would put them in the top two thirds of the targeted competition in a selection competition.

For the ECH in Spain that would be a score of somewhere around 568.

In a sixty shot competition, that means nothing less than a 9 scored and effectively half your shots need to be 10's.

By the way, the three seconds to shoot in the rapid part of the competition also includes the time taken to raise the pistol from the ready position (45 degrees from your body) to the aiming position.

rrpc

For those who are doing standard pistol, and to prove that you're not too far off, the results from last years ECH in Spain are not out of reach by any means.

Place|Name|Country|150|20|10|Total
1|Franck Dumoulin|France|195|192|184|571
2|Sergei Poliakov|Russia|192|194|184|570
3|Mikhail Nestruev|Russia|195|193|182|570
4|Joao Costa|Portugal|190|191|187|568
5|Roman Bondaruk|Ukraine|192|189|187|568
6|Oleksandr Petriv|Ukraine|190|192|184|566
7|Radoslaw Podgorski|Poland|186|195|185|566
8|Sergei Alifrenko|Russia|189|189|187|565
9|Rene Vogn|Denmark|186|192|186|564
10|Giovanni Bossi|Austria|191|190|183|564
14|Tomas Cambeses|Spain|189|185|185|559
23|Jorge Llames|Spain|186|181|186|553
37|Gyoergy Boros|Hungary|184|174|166|524


23rd place would be in the top two thirds.

Those of you who have got to the 540 mark in training are not too far away at all.

Anyone who watched the Pstol finals in this years Olympics might recognise some of those names.

Sparks

The ISSF have put up a list of the changes in the new Rules. Some of these will directly impact NTSA shooters even in domestic matches - for example, if there's a tie for last place in the finals at the end of the qualifiers, you do post the qualifying rank as decided by inner ten count, countback, etc; but to actually get into the finals, you have a five-shot shoot-off for the place.

Also, note that the indoor lighting requirement at the firing points has now risen to 1500lux (pretty soon, we'll have to put on sunscreen to shoot indoors...)

The full list is here:

All those items which are common in the four (4) discipline rules have been transferred to Section 6, General Technical Rules for all Shooting Disciplines.
1.21.2 Arabic has been added as one of the ISSF recognized languages.

3.5.1 Ranges and other facilities: changes have been made to the number of ranges required, 300 metre reduced to 40 for World Championships and Shotgun Ranges increased to 4. Ranges required for World Cups added, to be the same as for the Olympic Games except that the number of shotgun ranges increased to 4.

3.6.8.1 The maximum national team size for World Championships events has been increased by one in total for both Men and Women for both Rifle and Pistol. Substitutes abolished.

3.7 Competition Procedures, Preliminary Programme, Final Programme, Preliminary Entries, Final Entries, put into a simplified and more easily understood order.

3.7.4 Majority of fees changed to Euros according to the list below.

3.12.3.2 ID Number Euro 10.00. Express application Euro 20.00.

Quota Regulations for London 2012
These Quota Place Rules will become available when issued by the IOC in the year 2009. There are no Quota Places available in 2009.

4 ISSF Eligibility and Sponsorship Rules. There are major changes.

5 ISSF Anti Doping Regulations Expanded rules.

6.3.17 Indoor range lighting requirements (lux).
Increased light levels, particularly for the Finals Range and for new ranges, near to 1500 lux on the firing line, which is required by the media for the new high speed cameras.

6.5.2 Shooters and team officials must be informed of the shooting schedule not later than 12.00 on the day preceding the competition.

6.14 2009 ISSF Rules – New Classification Rules
The former "Count-back Rules" have been amended, and there will now be a Shoot-off for all events with Finals to decide which tied shooters may participate in the Finals.

Count Back Rules
Ties in Qualification (and Elimination) will now be broken (Rule 6.14.2):
1st by the total number of inner tens;
2nd by the highest score of the last ten shots series working backwards by 10 shot series in full ring scoring (not inner tens or decimals);
3rd by the number of tens, nines, etc, (in the whole score).

Shoot-offs for Finals
All those with equal scores tied for the last place(s) in Finals will now Shoot-off.
Therefore the Preliminary Results will be posted at the end of Qualification, ranked by inner tens, etc, showing this as example "587-56 x", but also indicating those eligible to participate in the Shoot-off to gain entry to the Finals.

The Shoot-off should be planned to take place 30 minutes after the end of Qualification.

Protest Time
The Protest time for Rifle and Pistol is now ten (10) minutes.

After the Shoot-off
The Qualification Results will then be published, showing the inner tens and the results of the Shoot-off. The expression "QS-off" will be shown against those who Shoot-off. [Any protests during the Shoot-off must be raised immediately]. Then the Finals Start List can be published.

After the Finals
The result of the Finals will be combined with the results from Qualification to give the Final Result. This will show the results with inner tens and also the result of any Shoot-offs. Shoot-offs from the Finals will be shown as "S-off".

Records and DSQ, DNF, and DNS etc will be in the Remarks column as before.

Protest Forms, Range Incident Report Forms, Score Notification Forms and Malfunction Score Computation Forms are included at the end of Section 6.

7 Rifle Rules
7.5.1.1.11 (Prone) and 7.5.1.3.14 (Kneeling) the following has been added. The right hand and/or arm may not touch the left arm, shooting jacket or sling. The reason for this addition is that although it was known that this was not permitted, it was not specifically mentioned.

7.5.1.2.10 (Standing) The right hand may not touch the left hand or arm.
8 Pistol Rules 8.6.1.2 The Ready Position. The former wording of the arm being motionless or stationary is impossible so this wording has been changed to "The arm must not be visibly moving".

9 Shotgun Rules
9.4.2.7 Now defines limits of porting; must not extend back further than 15 cm.

9.12.2 Lower ranking to shoot first

10 Running Target Rules
10.12 Medal Match Provisional Rules have been added.

Fees as of 1.1.2009 related to competitions to be changed to Euro!
170 € - Entry Fees
5 € - Fee per entry to be paid to ISSF by OC
50 € - Entry fee for each Official
25 € - Protest fee
50 € - Appeal fee
7 € - Training fee for shotgun trap / skeet
14 € - Training fee for shotgun double trap
900 € - Maximum Travel fee for Jury Members (economy class tickets)
50 € - Late entry (between 30 and 3 days before the Official Arrival Day providing that entry can be accepted by the OC)
20 € - Issue of new Judges Licenses
15 € - Renewal of Judges Licenses
15 € - Upgrade of Judges Licenses
20 € - Issue of new Shotgun Referee Licenses
15 € - Renewal of Shotgun Referee Licenses
1500 € - Membership fees
10 € - Issue of ID Numbers
20 € - Express application (issue within one week) for ID Numbers
1250 € - Training Academy participation fee
70 € - EST Courses participation fee

The following documents will be available from the ISSF Headquarters as they are now separate:
Guidelines for Organization of ISSF World Cups
Checklists for Technical Delegates
Guidelines for Uniform Equipment Control (Pistol)
Guidelines for Uniform Equipment Control (Rifle)
Training Guidelines for ISSF Judges' Courses

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Also, note that the indoor lighting requirement at the firing points has now risen to 1500lux (pretty soon, we'll have to put on sunscreen to shoot indoors...)

The full list is here:

TV and the media again

1500 € - Membership fees

Would that be federated membership fees?

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

TV and the media again

That's exactly it. The newer high-speed cameras require more lighting. It does technically only apply to finals halls (6.3.17) but every range we have in Ireland is technically a finals hall anyway But it's not a bad idea really; we've seen pistol matches where low light levels have caused problems for pistol shooters not being able to get sharp enough sight pictures.

Would that be federated membership fees?

Yes, but 1.3.10 and 1.3.14 also apply there (members with limited financial resources or other special circumstances can get reductions or exemptions). And the guidelines for 1.3.10 also says that where there are two ISSF bodies in the one country (as in Ireland), the fee is split between them.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

That's exactly it. The newer high-speed cameras require more lighting. It does technically only apply to finals halls (6.3.17) but every range we have in Ireland is technically a finals hall anyway But it's not a bad idea really; we've seen pistol matches where low light levels have caused problems for pistol shooters not being able to get sharp enough sight pictures.

Yes, but 1500 lux! That's the minimum light level on indoor targets. Kind of a bit bright for a firing point. Think of a 400w metal halide lamp about four feet above you and you're getting the idea.

You're not going to be cold, that's for sure. :eek: