20% of used import cars 'clocked'

-Chris-

TheIrishTimes wrote: »

20% of used import cars 'clocked'

ALMOST ONE in five cars imported from Britain and Northern Ireland have had their mileage changed, according to a study by AA Ireland and car-checking company Cartell.ie.

A random examination of 3,067 imported cars this year found the mileage on registration in the State was different for 18.5 per cent of the vehicles when compared to data held by the National Mileage Register (NMR) in Britain. According to the SIMI 49,253 cars have been imported from Britain and Northern Ireland so far this year, only marginally fewer than the 49,830 imported last year.

Changing the mileage, known in the motor industry as "clocking" usually involves reducing the mileage on a used car to increase its price. Occasionally the mileage may be increased to reduce the potential import taxes on a car.

Jeff Aherne of Cartell.ie said ex-fleet cars were among those most likely to be clocked with Audi, VW and Ford among the makes emerging as most frequently having their mileage changed. Conor Faughnan, AA Ireland spokesman said: "There is now clear evidence that unscrupulous dealers and middlemen are using Ireland as a dumping ground. This is likely to be simply because up to now they were sure they could get away with it."

He called on the Department of Transport to make clocking a criminal offence to curb the practice: "You may not mislead a customer about any aspect of a car, and you cannot sell a car that is unroadworthy but no law says that you cannot change the odometer dial."

The report estimates up to 9 per cent of UK-registered cars have been clocked, despite the existence of the NMR, and AA Ireland and Cartell.ie are in the process of establishing an Irish equivalent. While clocking fraudulently increases the selling price it also creates a safety risk because it means breakdowns and faults to critical items such as brakes and steering become more likely, Mr Faughnan added.

If the number of clocked imported cars in the Republic's fleet was proportionally similar to that in the UK there could be 200,000 cars with doctored odometer readings here, he said.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Does this sound right to you?

I know a lot of you have imported from the UK - based on your experience of investigating several cars to buy the one you settled on, how often were you suspicious of the mileage of a car?

For those thinking of importing, would this kind of report affect your decision?

maidhc

AudiChris wrote: »

For those thinking of importing, would this kind of report affect your decision?

It depends on what % of Irish cars are clocked, and there is nothing to suggest it is any lower!

SIMI propaganda.

Robbo

maidhc wrote: »

SIMI propaganda.

It's more like Volcano insurance company publishes "study" that 67.8% of all Irish homes have no volcano insurance.

copacetic

maidhc wrote: »

It depends on what % of Irish cars are clocked, and there is nothing to suggest it is any lower!

SIMI propaganda.

Isn't this report from the AA and Cartell? How can that be SIMI propaganda?

maidhc

copacetic wrote: »

Isn't this report from the AA and Cartell? How can that be SIMI propaganda?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/10000-used-car-imports----have-mileage-tampered-with-1534642.html

-Chris-

maidhc wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/10000-used-car-imports----have-mileage-tampered-with-1534642.html

But that's the SIMI commenting on a press release/report from the AA.

It's something the SIMI would work to highlight as it supports their objectives, but it's not their report - hardly propaganda...

-Chris-

maidhc wrote: »

It depends on what % of Irish cars are clocked, and there is nothing to suggest it is any lower!

Are you suggesting that you believe 20% of used cars for sale in Ireland at the moment have been clocked??

DonJose

AudiChris wrote: »

Does this sound right to you?

I know a lot of you have imported from the UK - based on your experience of investigating several cars to buy the one you settled on, how often were you suspicious of the mileage of a car?

For those thinking of importing, would this kind of report affect your decision?

I heard 20% of UK imported cars are haunted :eek:

I'd be more concerned about the cartels and price fixing in the Irish motor industry.

eringobragh

I presume this also takes into account UK cars that are clocked here upon their arrival here. (Remember that infamous eBay car that had a 100k or so haircut by a certain Lucan dealer)

TBH I'd prefer my chances with the UK over here.

I.S.T.

maidhc wrote: »

It depends on what % of Irish cars are clocked, and there is nothing to suggest it is any lower!

SIMI propaganda.

It's an AA survey...

http://www.aaireland.ie/news/article.asp?news_Id=463

Moanin

AudiChris wrote: »

Does this sound right to you?

I know a lot of you have imported from the UK - based on your experience of investigating several cars to buy the one you settled on, how often were you suspicious of the mileage of a car?

For those thinking of importing, would this kind of report affect your decision?

Having imported a car from the UK a few years ago, I would say that doing the usual checks (HPI, verifying service history & buying from a main dealer), you would be safe enough. This is what I did and it worked out fine for me.

maidhc

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

It's an AA survey...

http://www.aaireland.ie/news/article.asp?news_Id=463

Eitherway, it is a flawed survey insofar as it appears to suggest that buying an import is a riskier affair than an Irish car. SIMI have seized on this fact.

If on the otherhand the survey could indicate the number of cars originally registered in Ireland which were clocked it might be news worthy.

They survey proves nothing other than people should be diligent when buying a second hand car. We all know that.

DonJose

Galway dealer sold 'clocked' cars...

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0707/cars.html

According to Carzone, Arch Motors Ltd is a SIMI registered dealer, SIMI should get their own house in order before taking on UK imports.

http://www.carzone.ie/car-dealers/Galway/Arch-Motors-Ltd

eringobragh

DonJose wrote: »

Galway dealer sold 'clocked' cars...

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0707/cars.html

According to Carzone, Arch Motors Ltd is a SIMI registered dealer, SIMI should get their own house in order before taking on UK imports.

http://www.carzone.ie/car-dealers/Galway/Arch-Motors-Ltd

Here Here!!

I.S.T.

maidhc wrote: »

Eitherway, it is a flawed survey insofar as it appears to suggest that buying an import is a riskier affair than an Irish car. SIMI have seized on this fact.

If on the otherhand the survey could indicate the number of cars originally registered in Ireland which were clocked it might be news worthy.

They survey proves nothing other than people should be diligent when buying a second hand car. We all know that.

I agree. But there is no way for them to check if an Irish car is clocked or not as mileage is not recorded. They should have some system in place. They could easily record mileage at the NCT test.

I.S.T.

DonJose wrote: »

Galway dealer sold 'clocked' cars...

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0707/cars.html

According to Carzone, Arch Motors Ltd is a SIMI registered dealer, SIMI should get their own house in order before taking on UK imports.

http://www.carzone.ie/car-dealers/Galway/Arch-Motors-Ltd

Well spotted!

eringobragh

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

They could easily record mileage at the NCT test.

They do it now appears on your NCT certificate

I.S.T.

eringobragh wrote: »

They do it now appears on your NCT certificate

Aaah cool, I didn't know that.

DonJose

And another SIMI registered dealer. Simi, Kettle, Pot, Black.

Major car dealer agrees not to engage in 'clocking'

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/10000-used-car-imports----have-mileage-tampered-with-1534642.html

Again according to Carzone, Airport Used Car Centre is a SIMI registered dealer.

http://www.carzone.ie/car-dealers/Dublin/Airport-Used-Car-Centre

I.S.T.

DonJose wrote: »

And another SIMI registered dealer. Simi, Kettle, Pot, Black.

Major car dealer agrees not to engage in 'clocking'

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/10000-used-car-imports----have-mileage-tampered-with-1534642.html

Again according to Carzone, Airport Used Car Centre is a SIMI registered dealer.

http://www.carzone.ie/car-dealers/Dublin/Airport-Used-Car-Centre

Would be good to compile a list of these and send into the Independent/Times

caze

There is a risk associated with UK cars but no more than here I would say and if you are careful and do your research then you can more or less eliminate the risk.

At the start of the year I imported an ex fleet BMW from the UK that was just off lease. I purchased from a dealer who specialises in BMW’s and did all the relevant checks. I got HPI check, verified service history by calling the 2 BMW dealers the stamped books and receipts were from.

There was receipts for everything with the car from tyres to wipers. When I asked the dealer about any crash or accident damage he freely admitted that the drivers door had been replaced from a minor car park tip. This was repaired at BMW dealer with receipt to match. I could not notice anything from inspecting the car. Apart from a couple of stone chips on bonnet car was perfect. Had oil service done a while ago with AC cars and asked them to have a look over the car, they said it was in great condition for the mileage, 89K. Passed NCT on Monday and tester also commented on condition of the car.

Now a few years ago I was looking at a 3 year old Mondeo in a garage in Ballymount.
Mileage was 40 odd thousand and car was fairly clean. Drove good and seemed to be a good car. Got back to yard and dealer went off to let me look over the car. Found a leaseplan card stuck in the back of the glovebox. No service history with the car. The panel gaps around the boot didn’t match up either.

When dealer comes back to me I asked about the history of car, 1 owner, never damaged, sound car, last owner had misplaced the history but it was all good.

I left and called Leaseplan afterwards, they had disposed of car 2 months earlier by auction with 90K miles. Car had a heavy impact at rear that cost 7k to fix 2 years into 3 year lease. When I called dealer back to tell him this the reaction I got was not positive.

So like any significant purchase buyer beware is the key!

alias no.9

Without any evidence other than my own gut instinct, I would guess that the mileage on the clocks of these cars when they last changed hands in the UK was correct, more often than not. Most buyers in the UK run checks and demand verifiable service histories before parting with cash, a higher mileage car with verifiable history is more saleable than a lower mileage example without any history, UK traders know this.
Irish customers simply don't demand enough from dealers, often settling for the dealers word that they had the word of the previous owner about the provenance of a car. How many SIMI dealers are retailing UK cars here? How many of them have adopted the practice of removing the UK plates even though they're not yet registered here? What exactly are they trying to hide? I'd go so far as to say that any UK car that hasn't yet been registered here, retailing on a forecourt, without a verifiable service history is clocked. The reason I say so is that UK owners are meticulous with service histories and the choice of cars there is huge so there is simply no reason to source an unhistoried car unless you just don't want to know for reasons of plausible deniability.

robbie99

Yeah, it's bit rich of SIMI or anyone to be suggesting that clocked cars is a problem only with UK imports.

I read the report again. My reading of this is that clocking of cars is a much bigger problem in Ireland than it is in the UK. Two reasons -

1. It is not illegal to clock cars in Ireland.
2. UK has a National Mileage Registry. Ireland does not.

The report states that it's estimated that only 9% of cars in the UK are clocked. Of the sample of cars registered in Ireland that AA could check (UK imports are only ones possible to check thanks to UK's NMR), 18.5% had clocked mileage.

Buyers of UK imports can just as easily do the same HPI check to verify mileage. Buyers of Irish born cars cannot.
The point of this AA report is to call for an Irish NMR and to make clocking af cars illegal here.

SV

and for all the people stupid enough to believe their 15 year old import has only done 60k miles...guess that's what ya get.

victor1

robbie99 wrote: »

Yeah, it's bit rich of SIMI or anyone to be suggesting that clocked cars is a problem only with UK imports.

I read the report again. My reading of this is that clocking of cars is a much bigger problem in Ireland than it is in the UK. Two reasons -

1. It is not illegal to clock cars in Ireland.
2. UK has a National Mileage Registry. Ireland does not.

The report states that it's estimated that only 9% of cars in the UK are clocked. Of the sample of cars registered in Ireland that AA could check (UK imports are only ones possible to check thanks to UK's NMR), 18.5% had clocked mileage.

Buyers of UK imports can just as easily do the same HPI check to verify mileage. Buyers of Irish born cars cannot.
The point of this AA report is to call for an Irish NMR and to make clocking af cars illegal here.

Not illegal to clock in Ireland? - Is this correct>?

rabbitinlights

When buying in the UK I just picked an official service from the log book and rang the dealer and confirmed numbers etc. I also had a full HPI check and AA roadside check done, when buying from anyone, I feel these are the minimum that need to be carried out to ensure the history of a car, It does not matter where you buy the car from.


S.

robbie99

victor1 wrote: »

Not illegal to clock in Ireland? - Is this correct>?

Correct.

From the article...

He called on the Department of Transport to make clocking a criminal offence to curb the practice: "You may not mislead a customer about any aspect of a car, and you cannot sell a car that is unroadworthy but no law says that you cannot change the odometer dial."

AudiChris asks the question...

AudiChris wrote: »

For those thinking of importing, would this kind of report affect your decision?

For me this article just highlights that it's safer to source a car directly from the UK where history can be checked.

-Chris-

Looks like we definitely need a National Mileage Registry!

It BeeMee

From the same article:

Most Clocked imports

Audi 38%
VW 25%
Ford 24%
Lexus 19%
Toyota 14%


A more interesting statistic is how many of the cars checked were imported directly by the current owner, rather than via a dealer/agent etc

Not that I would suggest that the clocking was done on this side of the water or anything *cough* but I get the impression that a lot of people do their homework before travelling over to the UK, and are less likely to get caught out.

ChazMichael

Through this survey I believe the AA are genuinely trying to highlight the need for a national mileage registry. However i think the message delivered in the newspapers today will result in scaremongering, an attempt to discourage people buying cars originally imported from the UK.
I have heard at least three other similar headlines this year relating to clocking and UK imports.

How can it NOT be an offence to clock a car in Ireland?? Madness!

This is not good news for any of us who are trying to sell our car with genuine mileage that we legally imported a few years back. People will be discouraged when they see that it was originally a UK car.

Also i see carzone have stopped running adverts for dealers and cars from the North. Despite the reasons given, i suspect cars from the North are much too attractive a deal compared to equivalent models in the South, and this is annoying dealers down here. I wonder were carzone lobbied into this move?

bf

Don't know if it is SIMI propaganda, but makes for a good headline - the reality of it just implies to me that about 40% of people buying a car from the UK don't get a HPI check and do the necessary enquiries...

Quigs Snr

Mileage is recorded at the NCT test. I just don't think it's generally accessible after that like it is in the UK.

For my part, I keep all of my vehicles NCT reports as the mileage is recorded on them. It makes it easier to verify the mileage of the car when you go to sell it on..

It BeeMee

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Mileage is recorded at the NCT test. I just don't think it's generally accessible after that like it is in the UK.

Even if it was accessible, the fact remains that cars under 4 years old won't have an NCT.

That's the age when a car is most valuable, that's the age there are more "benefits" from clocking.

copacetic

maidhc wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/10000-used-car-imports----have-mileage-tampered-with-1534642.html

so just to be clear, you are saying SIMI paid off the AA and cartell.ie to produce a report that isn't true but serves their interests?

lollers, take it to the conspiracy theory nuthouse --

Climate Expert

Its fairly handy to detect a clocked car in the UK. Not so in this country.

robbie99

copacetic wrote: »

so just to be clear, you are saying SIMI paid off the AA and cartell.ie to produce a report that isn't true but serves their interests?

lollers, take it to the conspiracy theory nuthouse --

It's clear this is an AA report, not a SIMI one, but it hasn't stopped SIMI from commenting on it.

And Society of Irish Motor Industry chief (SIMI) Alan Nolan told the Irish Independent the figures highlighted the dangers of buying a car you know nothing about from someone you don't really know.

"Our own research shows that written-off cars, vehicles with finance outstanding and even stolen cars are turning up quite regularly here."

I'd like to know more about SIMI's own research. Are SIMI suggesting that this is not true for Irish born cars? lol

maidhc

copacetic wrote: »

so just to be clear, you are saying SIMI paid off the AA and cartell.ie to produce a report that isn't true but serves their interests?

lollers, take it to the conspiracy theory nuthouse --

Dear God no. I'm saying it reads like SIMI propaganda, complete with quotes from SIMI saying you should buy your next car from your local Arthur Daley.

The report, I have no doubt is 100% true, but so would a report in the Belfast Telegraph suggesting that 0.01% of Irish people are murders*.

*random made up figure

copacetic

maidhc wrote: »

Dear God no. I'm saying it reads like SIMI propaganda, complete with quotes from SIMI saying you should buy your next car from your local Arthur Daley.

The report, I have no doubt is 100% true, but so would a report in the Belfast Telegraph suggesting that 0.01% of Irish people are murders*.

*random made up figure

one in a hundred is a bit high alright, but I am suspicious that you have a bullseye on some SIMI suits at the moment!

As noted above it is most likely that all these cars were clocked in Ireland by dealers, SIMI dealers as likely as not.

What the survey really points to is the fact that at least you can do one with the UK data available.

maidhc

copacetic wrote: »

What the survey really points to is the fact that at least you can do one with the UK data available.

Agreed.

Nothing much against SIMI, they are interest group like any other and anything they say should be viewed accordingly..

mikemac

maidhc wrote: »

but so would a report in the Belfast Telegraph suggesting that 0.01% of Irish people are murders*.

*random made up figure

copacetic wrote: »

one in a hundred is a bit high alright,

1 in 10,000, not one in a hundred

Sorry, pedantic point

copacetic

micmclo wrote: »

1 in 10,000, not one in a hundred

Sorry, pedantic point

realised it was wrong as soon as I typed it, hoped nobody would bother to point it out!

Tipsy Mac

Carzone is full of UK registered cars for sale by SIMI members (SIMI members as filtered by Carzone search) ....

Liscarton Motor Company
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1084606
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1073815
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1073793

McHugh Car Sales
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1221920
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1113729
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1078696

Pat Igoe
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1188510
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1168602
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=1168598

Just to be 100% clear here, I'm not saying any of the cars listed here are clocked but they are UK cars for sale.

Climate Expert

I'm not saying any of the cars listed here are clocked but they are UK cars for sale.

The SIMI backed statistics would suggest that at least 1-2 of those cars listed are clocked.

Tipsy Mac

Climate Expert wrote: »

The SIMI backed statistics would suggest that at least 1-2 of those cars listed are clocked.

, some people say you can't argue with statistics.