Students who fight outside..

patjunfa

Hiya

I've just started teaching Kung Fu again after a break. A girl student age about 14 was asking about would this kill someone... trying to find out what she could realistically use outside. I said theres almost always ways to avoid fights... yada yada, she said not for girls.
Realistically she may be in fights, I say to use judgement is there a way out, if not to do the least damage necessary, if its a very threatening situation that varies, but she'd have to be able to stand over her actions in court perhaps. not sure what else to say, its a strange thought, thinkin of the young girls who may discover the effects of what I teach...
Any ideas on how to promote sensible behaviour..?

Moved from MMA.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ah teenagers!..

I don't envy you.

Tbh, I'd make it known your clubs policies on behaviour both inside and outside the club and make sure they know you take a tough line on both.

But you can be the toughest disciplinarian in the world, but that won't influence the behaviour of your students peers outside.

Its been a long time since I've been involved in coaching kids/teens, but I'm the father of two (one of which has been involved in M.A. since he was 6yrs old).

I'd expect some sound advice from Jon, Colm (I think he has a kiddies group going on) and Judomad (Gary is/was involved in Swords Judo club all of his young life both as a learner and as a black belt).

RAFC

You could tell her that as she has been trained in MA her hands (and legs) are now considered to be lethal weapons, and use of lethal weapons in a fight is illegal - tell her to use her skill to keep herself safe rather than to fight back and get herself into trouble.

Good luck with the class

Khannie

RAFC wrote: »

You could tell her that as she has been trained in MA her hands (and legs) are now considered to be lethal weapons

I remember being told this years ago. Is it really true? I mean I'm good...but....;)

Nothingcompares

no it's total nonsense.

tell her she can use what ever force she deems necessary if she considers her self to be in danger or threatened. hopefully when she tries to do some martial arts stuff against an adult male intent on harming her she won't get too badly broken up. make it clear that her martial arts will probably be useless in such a scenario.

Gorman

The best way to promote sensible behaviour is to to have her spar with an unskilled, fit, strong person. She will soon realise that killing people is the least of her worries. Actual sparring is probably the best deterrent for fighting outside the gym.

yomchi

Speak to her parents, she's a child. Instructors/teachers whatever, think their position is above that of the parent. What happens outside of your club is down to parenting.

Red Sleeping Beauty

What kind of stance has the law taken in the past with regards someone trained in an MA using self defence that lead to injury/death ?

arybvtcw0eolkf

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

What kind of stance has the law taken in the past with regards someone trained in an MA using self defence that lead to injury/death ?

A judge mentioned my friends 3rd dan TKD BB when sentencing recently, apparently my friend should have let the two scumbags beat him half to death instead of using some skills to save himself.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Mairt wrote: »

A judge mentioned my friends 3rd dan TKD BB when sentencing recently, apparently my friend should have let the two scumbags beat him half to death instead of using some skills to save himself.

I have to say I've a feeling that it could go against you. Looking forward to some more opinions or stories on this one.

tallaght01

Jesus Mairt, sorry to hear about your mate. I always thought that if you got attacked, you could use a reasonable amount of force to defend yourself. Your mate's situation is a bit of a worry. Did he actually get sebt down for defending himself after being attacked???

I wonder how far the Irish judiciary would let you go defending yourself. For example, if someone attacked you and you knocked them out, would that be a crime? I have to say that's got me thinking a bit.

arybvtcw0eolkf

tallaght01 wrote: »

Jesus Mairt, sorry to hear about your mate. I always thought that if you got attacked, you could use a reasonable amount of force to defend yourself. Your mate's situation is a bit of a worry. Did he actually get sebt down for defending himself after being attacked???

He got a suspended sentence and had to pay huge compo to two complete scumbags (€8k and €10k).

Its a bit of a pisser, but I guess to the by-stander my mate gave out more punishment than necessary. But he was followed home by two gurriers intent on beating him up.

The DPP made a big deal of his black belt, then the judge also mentioned it at sentencing.

Pain in the hole really.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Mairt wrote: »

He got a suspended sentence and had to pay huge compo to two complete scumbags (€8k and €10k).

Its a bit of a pisser, but I guess to the by-stander my mate gave out more punishment than necessary. But he was followed home by two gurriers intent on beating him up.

The DPP made a big deal of his black belt, then the judge also mentioned it at sentencing.

Pain in the hole really.

Two fellas hopped on one guy and after they got a beating they pressed charges and your mate gets a sentence and has to pay out eighteen thousand fúcking euros ? That's an utter disgrace. What the sweet fcuk is wrong with this cuntry. This scares me a bit

arybvtcw0eolkf

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

Two fellas hopped on one guy and after they got a beating they pressed charges and your mate gets a sentence and has to pay out eighteen thousand fúcking euros ? That's an utter disgrace. What the sweet fcuk is wrong with this cuntry. This scares me a bit

Yea its a right fook up alright.

And this despite the fact that a Garda Sgt and a school principle gave evidence to say that there had been continued harrassment from these guys against my friend and his family (& home).

The court still took the view that my friend should have acted with more restraint.

Ya just gotta be careful.

tallaght01

Well, I guess the one consolation is that it was a suspended sentence.

But the two guys who hopped on him probably didn't end up with a record.

It's a crazy world. And a good reason for the 14 year old in question not to fight outside of class!!!!

Nothingcompares

I don't know anything about this case other then what I have inferred from Mairt's post but my basic and amateur understanding of the law is:

if two knackers hop you with the intent on beating you up and robbing you, you can do what ever is necessary to stop that. However, if you do manage to turn the tide and start beating them up you are committing an offense. It's not longer "self-defense" but a beating.

So don't be afraid to defend yourself but don't give them a taste of their own medicine.

tallaght01

I started a thread on "reasonable force" on the legal discussion thread. Some interesting posts from the law heads over there.

patjunfa

With Students I guess it helps to give that perspective of the law, thats its an ass, and anything that goes beyond some judges interpetation of reasonable defensce could get you into serious trouble.
So two parts to the question are, how to promote non violence,
I give the example that I used to get jumped on a lot b4 I studied martial arts, and never even see fights now. I've changed some pattern with this energy, and no longer attract it
After that, I fought i school, if they're gettin it, they'll naturall have defend themselves. If violence is inevitable or nececssary a preemptive strike is always safer than tryin to react. Geff thompson, used to speak of this in "bouncer" n street awarness stuff. V sensible, Tho I'm wary of suggesting such.
Main thing I can say is somethin like above, but using judgement, and I can never be responsible for their outside actions. And if reports of inappropriate violence being used, then suspension or expulsion from club

Killme00

Paco, is that you?

I have had some run in's with people actually flaunting their skill's . They have all been Ju Jitsu heads also . 2 of them have got into it so much that they have a few drinks and actually start looking for fights with strangers .
One time was bad when again some drunk guy accedently spilled their drinks . They were going to kill him only that i stepped in. Then their attentions turned to me and they wanted to get a rise out of me.Lucky enough i am able to get myself out of a situation verbally . When they are not looking for a fight they are talking to other people that dont do Ju Jitsu and putting them in moves .

Another friend a nice guy quite small got into it and he went down the same path. Looking for any excuse to use it in a fight.I dont know what it is but it extends their Ego. I was tempted to go up to the school to see what they are teaching them.

Killme00

.

Boston

Oh the one hand you have mairts story and on the other you have Dre as in Dray, makes it difficult to argue against martial arts being considered a weapon.

ryoishin

OP,

The quality of a someones character and their value system is a job that begins at home. People are influenced by their environment and the social groupings they move in.

You and your club would be one of those social groupings but you are not responcible for your students actions.


Mairt,

Simular thing happened with one of my mates, he was up late at night frying an egg and 2 blokes broke into his gaf, he gave them a few digs and they legged it. Judge heard he did karate and he got a suspended sentence. The judge prob saw Van Dame take on 60 guys with a roundhouse and thought all MA could do this.

passive

ryoishin wrote: »

Simular thing happened with one of my mates, he was up late at night frying an egg and 2 blokes broke into his gaf, he gave them a few digs and they legged it. Judge heard he did karate and he got a suspended sentence. The judge prob saw Van Dame take on 60 guys with a roundhouse and thought all MA could do this.

Please tell me this isn't the whole story? How did he end up before a judge for it? Did the guys go to the police!? or does a few digs mean he tore off one of their arms or something?

ryoishin

He knew their faces from around his area so called the police.

The other guys brief tried to make out that he "gave chase and tried to block them from leaving" because he kept hitting one of them when he was trying to get out of the kitchen into the hall.

This is awhile ago.

arybvtcw0eolkf

passive wrote: »

Please tell me this isn't the whole story? How did he end up before a judge for it? Did the guys go to the police!? or does a few digs mean he tore off one of their arms or something?

They probably made an alligation of assault agains the chap.

It happened to me on May 6th 2006 when I tackled an armed robber at Mobhi Rd post office.

Despite the fact the guy had a knife, an imitation gun and have attempted to rob the P.O. he made an alligation of assault again me. Thankfully it didn't go any further than an interview with the cops, I say "Thankfully" because it came out in court that I fought on the Defence Forces Judo team (that came out in the print media too) so heaven only knows how a judge would have seen that!.

Stay_in_Kampuchea

Deleted User wrote: »

I have had some run in's with people actually flaunting their skill's . They have all been Ju Jitsu heads also . 2 of them have got into it so much that they have a few drinks and actually start looking for fights with strangers .
One time was bad when again some drunk guy accedently spilled their drinks . They were going to kill him only that i stepped in. Then their attentions turned to me and they wanted to get a rise out of me.Lucky enough i am able to get myself out of a situation verbally . When they are not looking for a fight they are talking to other people that dont do Ju Jitsu and putting them in moves .

Another friend a nice guy quite small got into it and he went down the same path. Looking for any excuse to use it in a fight.I dont know what it is but it extends their Ego. I was tempted to go up to the school to see what they are teaching them.

I have seen this happen all over. I had a falling out with a mate over his continued use of "Ninjabatmanonics" on the street. I put that in godforsaken comma's because it was two nut's teachin' him this ****e. He was 18 going around beatin up 12/13 year old's. It was only a matter of time before he did it to the wrong person, and i'm glad he did, it tought him a very valuble lesson.

Martin25

The law seems to expect martial artists to turn the other cheek at all times above and beyond what the normal citizen would do.
Having a "high grade" seems to warrant a harsher penalty in the courts.

Red Sleeping Beauty

oldirtywyer wrote: »

I have seen this happen all over. I had a falling out with a mate over his continued use of "Ninjabatmanonics" on the street. I put that in godforsaken comma's because it was two nut's teachin' him this ****e. He was 18 going around beatin up 12/13 year old's. It was only a matter of time before he did it to the wrong person, and i'm glad he did, it tought him a very valuble lesson.

ryoishin wrote: »

He knew their faces from around his area so called the police.

The other guys brief tried to make out that he "gave chase and tried to block them from leaving" because he kept hitting one of them when he was trying to get out of the kitchen into the hall.

This is awhile ago.

I'm not comfortable with this idea that if you have an MA qualification then you deserve different treatment than those that don't. Plenty of have been injured and/or killed by people with no MA training. There's just something that's very uneasy about reading these stories. If you go and beat somebody up and assualt them then you should be dealt with in the same way as anyone else.

I've heard of stories of burglars breaking into a house, falling over a plant pot, injuring their leg and then suing the house owner. There was a case a few years ago where a man had stabbed a burglar who had broken into his home some 16 times and the burglar then died. The homeowner got a pretty large sentence if I remember.

Martin25

Apparently we should just let the scumbags beat us up and kill n rob us!
Just look at that disgusting situation in Limerick as an example.

Stay_in_Kampuchea

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

I'm not comfortable with this idea that if you have an MA qualification then you deserve different treatment than those that don't. Plenty of have been injured and/or killed by people with no MA training. There's just something that's very uneasy about reading these stories. If you go and beat somebody up and assualt them then you should be dealt with in the same way as anyone else.

I've heard of stories of burglars breaking into a house, falling over a plant pot, injuring their leg and then suing the house owner. There was a case a few years ago where a man had stabbed a burglar who had broken into his home some 16 times and the burglar then died. The homeowner got a pretty large sentence if I remember.

I agree, my mate was eventually asked to attend a questioning over one of these assaults. He was never tought the lesson of self restraint and walking away. It put me in an arkward postion having to wade in and break up every fight he got into, eventually I just walked away...gob****es gone completly the oposite now, just a harmless junkie, with 12/13 year old beatin him up. crazy.

Andrew H

The other side of all of this is that there are plenty of average (or below) martial artists that are training their chosen styles once or twice a week and while they enjoy their training they may not have the ability to defeat a scum bag looking for trouble. What way will a judge look at these individuals if they get jumped on and the scum is caught, will they get a lighter sentence because the victim has some martial arts experience.....