Heroes staff fired!

DVD-Lots

Source : Comingsoon.net

Variety says there was a big shakeup behind the scenes of NBC's "Heroes" on Sunday as writers/co-executive producers Jesse Alexander and Jeph Loeb were fired.

The duo had been with the show since its first season and were known to have led the day-to-day production operation under the direction of creator/executive producer Tim Kring.

"Heroes," produced by Universal Media Studios, has struggled in the ratings its third season. It's understood that Alexander and Loeb were let go because of NBC executives' frustration with the creative direction of the show.

The trade added that the show is also said to have been dealing with hefty budget overruns this season that are going well beyond its already sizable $4 million per-episode pricetag.


....interesting

sunzz

Might actually pickup again....

EKRIUQ

Might not be a bad thing they will have to work harder on the plot and story lines instead of effy special effects.

Overheal

Pray it doesnt go pear-shaped.

btw No new episode this week; NBC decided to air a 2 hour special rebroadcast of the SNL Presidential Bash 2008

hussey

Overheal wrote: »

Pray it doesnt go pear-shaped.

btw No new episode this week; NBC decided to air a 2 hour special rebroadcast of the SNL Presidential Bash 2008

stupid americans ... Finding out if Sylar saved peter is way more important than old old dude losing

ShaneU

Overheal wrote: »

Pray it doesnt go pear-shaped.

Have you seen Series 3?

Overheal

ShaneU wrote: »

Have you seen Series 3?

...

Overheal wrote: »

Pray it doesnt go further pear-shaped.

monkeyfudge

They made the cover of the latest Entertainment Weekly.... but not in a good way.

seamus

Tbh, it looks like the writer's strike made them lazy or complacent or something. I'm hearing that all of the big prime-time shows have suffered a serious drop in the quality of the writing and overall plotlines.

Desperate Housewives* is apparently a big pile of crap this season too. People started losing interest in Lost :pac: towards the end of last season and Prison Break has turned into a big yawnfest.

Not sure what the story is.

* Or so I hear

seraphimvc

hmmm,i am not surprised at all to see something like this comes out...

:pac:cant make any effort to open the link to watch the latest episode...but wandering in Heroes forum lol hope they get well soon.*stick with my House*

MikeHoncho

Loebs output in comics has been of a fairly poor standard recently too. Not really surprised by this at all. Heroes has been almost laughable at times this year. I have a feeling they have written themselves into a hole though. Time travel is always such a dodgy concept to be dealing in too heavily. Especially in a serialised TV show.

AlmightyCushion

seamus wrote: »

Desperate Housewives* is apparently a big pile of crap this season too.

Wasn't it always.

EKRIUQ

Heroes has simply gotten too confusing. I thought this season would be the rise of the villains not the introduction of fifteen new characters a week. It is impossible to follow.That is not to say shows can not have interwoven storylines and new characters each season. "The Wire," which I consider to be the best television of all time, nailed this formula. Each season involved new characters, a new complex storyline, but still there were overarching themes.

Heroes, on the other hand,this is a broken stream of endless storyline impossible to piece together. I think it started last season with the abrupt end (due to the strike unfortunately). This season, however, is a bit of a disaster.

BenjAii

The Writers strike and then added stopping and starting after that didn't help either; that made me lose interest in it.

qwertplaywert

seamus wrote: »

People started losing interest in Lost

If anything, the opposite. The majoreity of people seemed to agree it was back to its best in season 4,and got even better as it approached the end.

Fysh

qwertplaywert wrote: »

If anything, the opposite. The majoreity of people seemed to agree it was back to its best in season 4,and got even better as it approached the end.

I suspect seamus was referring to Lost's massive loss of viewers around the Season 3 mark, when it appeared to be a lot of padding without a clear goal in sight (unsurprising really, given that it was originally planned to last 2 seasons from beginning to end) and started to regain them after the change to work towards the defined endpoint with 3 16-episode seasons.

Similar thing happened with Battlestar Galactica, and IMO has happened to Heroes. They had some sort of a plan (though according to rumours the first season was supposed to originally end with most of the cast dead) and have clearly deviated sorely from that and well into "making it up as you go along" territory in Season 3 and to a lesser extent in Season 2. And somehow they're surprised that people aren't so interested any more, despite the entire appeal of the first season being that there was a greater storyline planned for the season as a whole....

DirkVoodoo

Each season of heroes was meant to focus on a group of new heroes. Might not have worked when you think about it. Besides people becoming attached to characters, no one wants to see the same "origin" series happen for each new cast.

I dont think BSG has ever really dropped in form or lost sight of the first season's promises. If anything it became more layered and interesting as seasons went by.

Fysh

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Each season of heroes was meant to focus on a group of new heroes. Might not have worked when you think about it. Besides people becoming attached to characters, no one wants to see the same "origin" series happen for each new cast.

Seeing the origin story repeated over and over would be boring, but if the original concept was to have a different cast each season then either:

a) Tim Kring or someone else decided the money involved was enough to justify ditching his original concept, or
b) NBC decided that the cast/characters were popular enough with audiences to justify forcing the writers to include them in future stories that they were never meant to appear in.

Neither option covers anyone in glory, really, and does suggest that at the end of the day someone involved in the show's production is to blame.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I dont think BSG has ever really dropped in form or lost sight of the first season's promises. If anything it became more layered and interesting as seasons went by.

That's fair enough, the quality aspect is a matter of opinion after all - that said, I thought that after 6 episodes, the third season turned to complete muck (with extended periods of nothing happening and lots of "character development" which consisted of re-treading old ground) and the way the show haemorraghed viewers for most of that season suggests I'm not the only one. Heck, they weren't even sure they'd get the fourth season after the third season performed so badly. It's a real shame to see Heroes go the same way.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

qwertplaywert

Fysh wrote: »

Similar thing happened with Battlestar Galactica

I don't see how, hasn't it had a 5 year plan since the start?
Mini Series being Act 1, Season 4 being Act 5.

leninbenjamin

Fysh wrote: »

b) NBC decided that the cast/characters were popular enough with audiences to justify forcing the writers to include them in future stories that they were never meant to appear in.

it's almost certainly the above. It's pretty obvious they are struggling to write effective stories for characters like Claire and Peter, but they obviously are still kept in the show for their mass appeal. I notice that they are slowly beginning to lose screen time, yet they were at the core of the shows marketing for Season 3 so will never be ditched (unless they decide to leave the show of their own accord, which I really hope will happen, but they are such useless actors it's very unlikely).

AngryBadger

Have to be honest, pretty much everyone I talk to is dissappointed in the current series of "Heroes", am i the only one who's actually enjoying this season?

Admittedly there are some glaring plotholes here and there, but overall I'm enjoying it, and personally I love stories that deal with Time-travel, parallel futures FTW!!!

But yeah in general most writers are not capable of handling time travel safely, which is kind of a "minor" issue this season!

Fysh

qwertplaywert wrote: »

I don't see how, hasn't it had a 5 year plan since the start?
Mini Series being Act 1, Season 4 being Act 5.

Well, that would work although there are some issues:

a) Season 3 meandered well into the realm of irrelevance after starting strong (apparently due to pressure from the Sci-Fi Channel to create standalone episodes);
b) after noting the disastrous reception of Season 3 amongst viewers they panicked and, like the producers of Lost before them, rushed out an announcement stating that they had "always planned to have an end in sight" (despite this being in no way apparent from the lack of overall story progression during most of Season 3); and
c) the change in the opening credits in Season 4 to stop mentioning the plan that the Cylons have apparently had since the beginning.

Moving back to Heroes, a 5-act structure could quite easily have worked - all you need to do is have a different focus for each season and work in the relevant characters accordingly. For example:

• Season 1 "Origins" - showing how at a predetermined time a disparate group of people realise that they have extraordinary powers, culminating in them grouping together to prevent a disaster in New York.
• Season 2 "Heroes & Villains" - Introducing some new cast members and revisiting existing ones, the reasons for each character choosing the path of hero or villain are examined as the existence of a second, shadier company is revealed that stands in opposition to Primatech while the first ever superhuman attempts to release a lethal virus. Season concludes with both companies struggling to control the known superhuman characters thus far revealed.
• Season 3 "Evolution" - As characters like Sylar & Peter grow more powerful, they question their place amongst "normal" humanity. Stronger foes rise to fight them, amongst them engineer superhumans created by both Primatech & Pinehurst. The rest of the cast struggle with the question of whether to reveal the truth of their nature as societies worldwide react to the rumours of superhumans in varied ways. The season concludes with Peter/Sylar reluctantly joining forces to fight some super-threat created by one or both of the companies, leading to the televised revelation of their existence worldwide.
• Season 4 "Arms Race" - With the existence of superhumans both engineered and natural revealed to the world, governments enforce strict regimes to keep them under control, ranging from voluntary enlistment programs to enforced detention camps. With both companies working to control the creation and enhancement of superhumans for their own ends, world governments are infiltrated by Pinehurst and Primatech agents attempting to seize power. Season concludes with each company taking control of one major world government and working from there to promote their agenda. (Cold-war style only with superhumans instead of nukes, with opposing sides using different means - one govt resorting to positive recruitment drives etc, the other kidnapping people and experimenting on them against their will, etc)
• Season 5 "War" (series finale) - Both governments are now working on superhuman weapons programs, including superpowered suicide units amongst others. As global political tension unites, superhuman terrorist factions emerge calling for the creation of a superhuman nation state and the creation of a Superhuman Rights Convention. Within the superhuman community, a divide is growing between those who are naturally superhuman and those who are engineered. The arms race between the two governments escalates before a reluctant truce is formed as they realise they must unite against the threat of an organised separatist superhuman army. An audacious attack by the terrorist superhuman group leads to a united declaration of war against them, with no quarter given for any superhuman to stay uninvolved. As the Pinehurst govt. deploys a superhuman-only nerve agent and faces accusations of genocide, Mohinder Suresh (who has been studying the superhuman genetic structure since Season one) makes a breakthrough - he discovers a way to de-power superhumans that can be deployed as an airborne agent. Working with elements of the Primatech government he arranges for worldwide deployment and de-powers all the superhumans. He makes a global press statement distributed by video, radio and over the Internet, announcing what he has done and why. He goes on to announce that he has created and succesfully tested a vaccine that can be manipulated to safely induce any desired superhuman ability, and goes on to distribute the instructions for how to create and use the vaccine, along with the details of the airborne neutralisation agent he has created. By democratising safe access to superhuman abilities for all, he hopes to put an end to all the problems that have arisen since he first became aware of the emergentce of superheroes.

It borrows rather a lot from Babylon 5 and Rising Stars, but that's because I think JMS's work is a very good example of how to use a set of small stories to tell one big story. Whether or not the production team behind Heroes are trying to create something like this or not is a different matter entirely, of course. That said, if they continue their current sloppy approach to storytelling, they probably won't get the ratings they need to keep getting the show made. (Just look at what happened to The 4400, there's a show that was working to a greater storyplan and ended a strong 4th season with a cliffhanger that screamed out for one last season to wrap it all up....still can't believe that show was cancelled.)

DirkVoodoo

I like your theory about the "evolution" and its something that bugs me about heroes. They have these powers and have learned to deal with/accept them in season 1. Surely as they progress and like you say, Sylar and Peter grow more and more powerful the writers could easily have taken a "Dr.Manhattan" approach and ask the question "Would they really be concerned with the lives of regular people when they are so far removed from our world?".

Instead the writers have locked all the characters into the same bubble they started off in. Peter is still naive and hopeful while sylar sees no greater purpose except amassing powers because he has a bit of a "hunger". Well, series 3 has turned this on its head a bit, but im not counting season 3 because to me its like watching WWE at the moment: "Oh, the rock, isn't he a god guy?" "No he is bad now because Vince made him an offer he couldn't refuse" "Oh, so is triple H not the bad guy?" "No he is good now" (back from when my little bro loved wrestling)

Anyway, I don't think there was ever a risk of heroes becoming watchmen, would have been nice for them to ask challenging questions about our humanity like we see in BSG.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

I like Series 3 of Heroes, more than the first 2 series. I don't see what people don't like about it? Loving the whole who are te real Heroes and who are the real villains thing they've got going on.
Is it that people don't like being challenged while watching a series and want the info spoonfed to them in a regular timeline?

Fysh

To be honest, I don't see it as "challenging viewing" when a team of writers decides to ignore the character development that they've worked on for the previous two seasons and provide feeble excuses to justify sudden behavioural changes in characters to suit the plot. I like the idea of questioning the behaviour of the characters and asking whether they're really doing anything good, but it's been done in such a hamfisted way thus far that it's a struggle to enjoy the story.

I understand the reason for this - they're having to jettison previously-established plans in order to try and salvage the show mid-season. The problem is, the idea is good but the execution is poor and this is really the same problem the show's had since season 2.

You want me to believe that Sylar has reformed and isn't inherently malevolent? Fine. Give me a small story-arc, 4 episodes or so like in Season 1, where we see Sylar struggling with his nature in a way that makes sense but moves him forward, and at the end of the arc give us a breaking point that establishes why the change has happened. Don't just give us a shot of Ma Petrelli telling him she's his mother, and then try to pretend that he was only evil because his adoptive mother didn't hug him enough :rolleyes:

I've mentioned this show before, but The 4400 is a good example of how such things can be handled. Take Jordan Collier's character in there and the ways in which his intentions can appear good or bad depending on your perspective. Or Saul Tigh in Battlestar Galactica, particularly around the start of Season 03.

Re-evaluating a character's moral compass can be a very effective way of keeping them interesting, but it has to be done effectively, not in a 5 minute hackjob that reeks of "we need you to be a good guy now, so here's a deus ex machina to achieve that, thanks very much".

DirkVoodoo

I have a theory that Garth Merenghi has been hired as a season 3 writer. The poor character development, sudden motivation changes to suit the current story, flat dialogue.

Liz: I wasn't planning on falling on my fanny Dr. Dagless, I had a vision - I'm a psychic.
Dagless: And I'm Bo Derek.
Liz: No you're not.
Dagless: You're right, I'm not. I guess I use sarcasm as a defence.
Liz: I see the past, the present and the future.
Dagless: Tough gig!
Liz: Stop being sarcastic!
Dagless: Maybe if everyone who'd ever been close to you had died, you'd be sarcastic too.
Liz: (thinking) Yes, that makes sense

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Garth Merenghi is a fictional character...????

monkeyfudge

CaptainNegative wrote: »

Garth Merenghi is a fictional character...????

Nope. I met him earlier this year.

He was doing a reading from his new book called 'Grey Balls 2: The son of Grey Balls'

Also Starring LeVar Burton

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Nope. I met him earlier this year.

He was doing a reading from his new book called 'Grey Balls 2: The son of Grey Balls'

Garth Merenghi is a fictional character played by Matthew Holness. Perhaps Holness was in character for the book reading.

Wiki page link here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garth_Marenghi

monkeyfudge

Wow... want to ruin Santa as well while you're at it?

Also Starring LeVar Burton

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Wow... want to ruin Santa as well while you're at it?

No, Santa's real.

DirkVoodoo

Never heard of sarcasm huh?

Also Starring LeVar Burton

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Never heard of sarcasm huh?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo... Have you?
I've a PhD in sarcasm at this stage, which is how I know it's very difficult to put sarcasm across in text - therefore your comment could have gone either way; sarcastic or gullible... and a little birdie told me, you're quite the gullible fellow...

DirkVoodoo

Didn't mean any offence, just that surely for anyone to know who Garth Merenghi is they would have to be a fan of Darkplace and hence know that he is not a real writer (if only!).

I think thats what Monkeyfudge was getting at.

I didn't know you were being sarcastic originally, generally folks throw in an old smiley face to get that across in text :rolleyes:

Also Starring LeVar Burton

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Didn't mean any offence, just that surely for anyone to know who Garth Merenghi is they would have to be a fan of Darkplace and hence know that he is not a real writer (if only!).

I think thats what Monkeyfudge was getting at.

I didn't know you were being sarcastic originally, generally folks throw in an old smiley face to get that across in text :rolleyes:

No worries, dude. No offence taken. I'm quite the sarcastimist (not a real word, but I'm sure you get the drift). Generally I throw smilies in, but the lack of smilies on boards irritates me and I can only stand using or :rolleyes: or sometimes , but they don't really get the point across. Although if Matthew Holden and Richard Ayoade were to actually become writers on Heroes, that's be hilarious - I don't even think I'd be pissed that it would completely destroy the show.

Fysh

The sad thing is, the only evidence I could give to prove that Garth Marenghi isn't on the writing staff is that we haven't had any significant use of slow-motion

On a separate note, there's an interview with Tim Kring here which contains some very telling snippets regarding the quality of the writing in volumes 2 and 3:

Tim Kring wrote:

(The serialised form is) an absolute bear of a thing....(a serial) eats stories much faster than you plan...The serialized story is so Writers Room-intensive and requires an ‘all hands on deck’ quality to it; you’re often just carrying the water for the next storyline.

Nervous Wreck

The upcoming twelve-part volume, “Fugitives,” will see the characters returning to civilian lives and hiding their powers. Kring says the show will take a hiatus from time travel stories. Asked about time travel as a story device, Kring said “avoid it at all cost.” Subsequently asked which power he would like to possess, he said, “Time travel.”

Ah good.

Fysh

The "no more time travel stories" thing is definitely a good thing; I'm curious as to whether that means Hiro and Ando will fade to the background or just find some spurious reason to stop moving through time.

As for "the characters returning to civilian lives and hiding their power"...they'd want to have a stronger storyline for this than they did in Volume 2, because despite Jeph Loeb's thinking on the matter, "extraordinary people leading ordinary lives" really isn't all that good an idea for a show about people with superpowers.

Nervous Wreck

Fysh wrote: »

The "no more time travel stories" thing is definitely a good thing; I'm curious as to whether that means Hiro and Ando will fade to the background or just find some spurious reason to stop moving through time.

As for "the characters returning to civilian lives and hiding their power"...they'd want to have a stronger storyline for this than they did in Volume 2, because despite Jeph Loeb's thinking on the matter, "extraordinary people leading ordinary lives" really isn't all that good an idea for a show about people with superpowers.

I reckon they'll tend towards the original future hinted at in "The Second Coming". People with abilities being sought out and hunted etc and use that as motivation for many of the characters to go into hiding, while using their abilities to help each other keep a lid on things. Hopefully someone will shoot Nathan again.

Full_Circle

Fysh wrote: »

To be honest, I don't see it as "challenging viewing" when a team of writers decides to ignore the character development that they've worked on for the previous two seasons and provide feeble excuses to justify sudden behavioural changes in characters to suit the plot. I like the idea of questioning the behaviour of the characters and asking whether they're really doing anything good, but it's been done in such a hamfisted way thus far that it's a struggle to enjoy the story.

Totally agree with you there Fysh. This is prolly my single biggest problem with Heroes (among the many). Its practically impossible to predict how any character will react from week to week. And if you dont feel like you know a character, its terribly difficult to care about them in any way. At least Ali Larter had split personalities / twin sisters to explain her changeable character. What excuse have the rest of the cast got? I'll tell you: bloody atrocious story and writing :pac: