Legality of locking bike to lamp post

Macha

Hi guys,

Long time lurker and commuting cyclist. The other day I was locking my bike to a lamp post outside a shop in Dublin city centre. This middle-aged guy came up to me, told me he was from the local "Business Watch" and that I wasn't allowed to lock my bike there especially seeing as there are so many proper places to lock your bike (his words, not mine..). I didn't really react much & just told him I'd be a few minutes.

TBH, I'm in the habit of occasionally locking my bike to lamp posts because most of the time, when I do make the effort to go to the proper bike parks, they're full.

Did he have any right to say anything to me??

Lumen

taconnol wrote: »

Did he have any right to say anything to me??

Of course he had the right to say that, it's a free country.

I can understand his attitude as a retail businessman. After all, cyclists are made of pure energy and don't spend money in shops. Oh, hang on...

In future, I'd ask him which bit of legislation covers it, and then offer to print it in triplicate and shove it up his hole.

Macha

Lumen wrote: »

Of course he had the right to say that, it's a free country.

I can understand his attitude as a retail businessman. After all, cyclists are made of pure energy and don't spend money in shops. Oh, hang on...

In future, I'd ask him which bit of legislation covers it, and then offer to print it in triplicate and shove it up his hole.

Ha yes - should have phrased that better.

The irony is, he actually owned the shop that I went into and bought something...

Good to know for the next time.

Eoin D

It's public lighting, he has no authority to tell you that you can't put your bike there. It's similar to if someone were to park their car outside your house, if it's not a private community and they park 5m from a corner and don't block any access it's legal

72hundred

Lumen wrote: »

In future, I'd ask him which bit of legislation covers it, and then offer to print it in triplicate and shove it up his hole.

+1

Haha, actually LOL'd to that.

cyclopath2001

Eoin D wrote: »

It's public lighting, he has no authority to tell you that you can't put your bike there. It's similar to if someone were to park their car outside your house, if it's not a private community and they park 5m from a corner and don't block any access it's legal

To lock your bike to the lampost, you'd be parking your bike on the path. Parking on the path is illegal all of the time for cars and bicycles. (Except for bike stands.)

The rules for parking on the roadway are different.

Macha

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

To lock your bike to the lampost, you'd be parking your bike on the path. Parking on the path is illegal all of the time for cars and bicycles. (Except for bike stands.)

The rules for parking on the roadway are different.

Did some googling in the meantime. So how do you explain this document from the Gardai?

http://www.garda.ie/crimeprev/bicycles.pdf

Lock your bike to an immovable object e.g. a metal railing or lamppost. Be aware, if using a lamppost, of the possibility of lifting the locked bicycle over the lamppost.

cyclopath2001

taconnol wrote: »

Did some googling in the meantime. So how do you explain this document from the Gardai?http://www.garda.ie/crimeprev/bicycles.pdf

I think you should ask the Gardaí.

This document (SI182/1997) is the law:

36. ...(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—
...( i ) on a footway, a grass margin or a median strip

Húrin

taconnol wrote: »

Did some googling in the meantime. So how do you explain this document from the Gardai?

sounds like the guy was a chancer. I doubt that will ever happen to you again.

cyclopath2001

Húrin wrote: »

sounds like the guy was a chancer. I doubt that will ever happen to you again.

Nope, I think he had a point. Parking bikes on paths may be an accepted practice but not actually legal. But, if strict compliance with the law is what the guy wants, he might be sorry he wished for it.

Macha

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I think you should ask the Gardaí.

This document (SI182/1997) is the law:

Hang on - what about all the designated bicycle parking bays that are on the "footway"?

cyclopath2001

taconnol wrote: »

Hang on - what about all the designated bicycle parking bays that are on the "footway"?

I would guess that there's a regulation specifically permitting parking in designated cycle parking bays.

milod

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I would guess that there's a regulation specifically permitting parking in designated cycle parking bays.

There are hundreds of amendments on the statute book to take care of recent developments like trams, disc parking etc (and some crap about having to use cycle lanes where they exist...)

However, there are no direct references to limitations on bicycle parking, and the definition of 'vehicle' only seems to include bicycles when referring to moving traffic, lighting regulations, etc. The definition of vehicle for the purposes of licensing, taxing, insuring etc seems to only refer to a mechanically propelled vehicle...

So I think there's sufficient room for interpretation of your parking rights - especially when the gardai have gone to the trouble of producing a nice leaflet that encourages you to attach your bike to something immovable.

Bunnyhopper

Once again the law is as helpfully clear as mud on a windshield.

I saw this on bike radar:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/are-cyclehoops-the-cycle-parking-solution-19161

It says they "can be easily installed within minutes using a special set of tools". I'd be worry that a Dublin scummer might find them easily removed within minutes using a special set of stolen/borrowed/improvised tools.

rubadub

Since so many people, including the gardai are ignorant of the law, if it happens again say

under document (SI182/1997):
Quote:
36. ...(2) A vehicle bicycle shall not be permitted to be parked—
...( i ) on a footway, a grass margin or a median strip

SerialComplaint

It's worth remembing that bikes do present a hazard to people who are blind or vision-impaired, particularly those nice sharp pedals positioned just a shin height.

Macha

Sure, I mean I always lock them on the road-side of the lamp post, not on the side facing the footpath. However, the issue you raise could be said, for example, about designated bike spaces like those outside Hodges Figgis.

bealbocht

SerialComplaint wrote: »

It's worth remembing that bikes do present a hazard to people who are blind or vision-impaired, particularly those nice sharp pedals positioned just a shin height.

Yup, bikes locked to poles fall over much easier (see two pics , both of which I picked up just in case anyone was wondering) , and they are a hazard.
I do used them, but only for short term parks. Never in the evening/night, cos they get jumped on (again see pic :-( ) From a shop keepers point of view, who maybe just coughed up a kings randsom for public liability insurance, I can see why they get nervous.

I was locking my bike on St Anns st ( Just off Grafton st, Dublin) to a railing.
Ingoring the "Bicycles will be removed" sign as you do, and a woman came out fussing over the " antique railings" and how they had to be painted because of cyclists. I didnt warm to her arguement, but kinda remember trying to be civil.

Whats the rule with "removing bicycles" , isnt it something like, "they can remove it from their property, but cant damage someones elses property" ???

kenmc

bealbocht wrote: »

Never in the evening/night, cos they get jumped on (again see pic :-( )

Doubt that particular one was jumped on to be honest, it's just a P.O.S.

TinyExplosions

kenmc wrote: »

Doubt that particular one was jumped on to be honest, it's just a P.O.S.

I reckon that could have been run over... saw it happen outside the Screen cinema once -bus took a corner a little to sharpish, and ran over 2 bikes locked to a pole.

bealbocht

kenmc wrote: »

Doubt that particular one was jumped on to be honest, it's just a P.O.S.

P.O.S. ???

what ever "applied force" to it, obviously did it against the kerb in when it was lying on its side, with a good deal of determination. (not beyond the capabilities of the mindless drunk, looks to me like it was hit against the kerb, and picked up and jumped on again.)

either way, as my local bike shop guy said to me when asking about fixing a buckled wheel

"thats not buckled, that f*ckled"

blorg

P.O.S. = Piece of shi.

@bealbocht- you are using the same avatar as cyclopath, this is most confusing. I agree with you that bikes locked to lampposts tend to fall over but there are ways and means of mitigating against this if you are an experienced lamppost-locker!

Lumen

bealbocht wrote: »

"thats not buckled, that f*ckled"

unionman

Short plays about Ireland
Legality of locking bike to lamp post (starring Taconnol and Businessman)

Taconnol (locking bike to lamppost): “What a lovely day. I think I’ll go into that shop and buy some tuck”

Businessman approaches

Businessman: “I am from local ‘Businesswatch’ and you are forbidden to lock your bicycle to that lamppost, it is illegal and against the law and such and such”

Taconnol: “ ? ”

Businessman (pointing away and laughing demonically): “nowbegone!!”

Taconnol (recovering): “Ah, you must be my contact from Businesswatch?”

Businessman: “ ? ”

Taconnol: “I have been hired as an undercover cyclist to monitor illegal lamppost locking by Businesswatch in this area, I assume you got the memo?”

Businessman: “ ? ”

Taconnol: “A memo was circulated and I’m billing by the hour, now perhaps you could lead me into your boutique for some refreshment?”

Businessman: “Very well, secret cyclist, this way please”

Taconnol turns to wink at audience.

The End

Cast
Taconnol - Matt Damon
Businessman - Chris Morris

Macha

Although being female, I'd prefer someone like this to portray me:

girlbiker

72hundred wrote: »

+1

Haha, actually LOL'd to that.

Me too!

Victor

The guy was probably from the BID. http://www.dubchamber.ie/current_issue.asp?article=801

taconnol wrote: »

Hang on - what about all the designated bicycle parking bays that are on the "footway"?

A "footway" is defined as that part of the road meant primarily for pedestrians, which a cycle parking area isn't.

monument

milod wrote: »

There are hundreds of amendments on the statute book to take care of recent developments like trams, disc parking etc (and some crap about having to use cycle lanes where they exist...)

However, there are no direct references to limitations on bicycle parking, and the definition of 'vehicle' only seems to include bicycles when referring to moving traffic, lighting regulations, etc. The definition of vehicle for the purposes of licensing, taxing, insuring etc seems to only refer to a mechanically propelled vehicle...

So I think there's sufficient room for interpretation of your parking rights - especially when the gardai have gone to the trouble of producing a nice leaflet that encourages you to attach your bike to something immovable.

Here, here!

As a genral comment on the posting of sections of acts, and SIs: Unless you're a lawyer, you should be reading http://www.citizensinformation.ie/ and not http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ or other such sites. Better still, consult a lawyer **. The statute book site does not include case law, context, interpretation etc, etc.

If it was a case where a person is blocking a footpath by locking a bicycle, and it's clear cut, then fine. But otherwise there's a lot on the side of those who lock bikes to lampposts and signposts etc...

• As milod points out, it's not clear if bicycles are covered by SI182/1997 or other
• It could be argued that in the above named SI, or in other written laws, bicycles were not the target, thus applying such a law to bikes would not be in the "spirit of the law"
• So, from that, it could be reasonable for a cyclists to view them self as not following the "letter of the law", but being within the "spirit of the law"
• It's been done for years if not a 100 or more years, and has not been seen as a major problem in such a time frame
• There's no apparent general move against it from government or enforcement at any level
• There are however signs being used by Dublin City Council saying do not park a bike at X poll etc
• ALSO, it's worth noting, a person is only - if anything - suspected of breaking a law unless convicted

On the opposite side of things, the breaking of a lock could be view more clearly as criminal damage (even if done by a council, unless laws are in place allowing them to do so).

Not that any of my post above matters as it is highly unlikely to end in court in the first place.

A general comment on bicycle parking provision: There appears to be a distinct lack of bike parking around places like O'Connell Street* and if it wasn't for cyclists using trees and polls there simply would not be enough room around for bikes. In other places there seams to be a lot of foolishly placed parking which is never used or underused.

A suggestion for locking bikes to polls: Have one big lock to lock both wheels to the poll and have a small lock (something like this one) to tightly string around an upper part of the bike (I use the crossbar) and the poll. This helps to prevent the bike been knocked and jumped on.

* ...and in Dublin to name a few others: Grafton Street, Cineworld on Parnell Street, at train stations, tram stops, out side local shops etc etc etc

** Do this and also please do not view any of my posts as being legal advice, thank you!

Victor

monument wrote: »

Cineworld on Parnell Street

Not great, but here are some across the street.

cyclopath2001

monument wrote: »

As a genral comment on the posting of sections of acts, and SIs: Unless you're a lawyer, you should be reading http://www.citizensinformation.ie/ and not http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ or other such sites. Better still, consult a lawyer **. The statute book site does not include case law, context, interpretation etc, etc.

Did you deliberately omit the RoTR?

I agree with what you say all the stated risks of taking laws literally and that what is judged in court based on precedent can be much different.

But, I'd argue that, on some occasions, going back to the fundamental source allows for people to see the original law before a car-driving civil servant put their own personal spin on it and it then got further mangled by urban myth. It leads to interesting debates where people can question misconceptions.

BTW A quick search on citizensinformation.ie revealed nothing to me on the topic at hand.

kenmc

Victor wrote: »

A "footway" is defined as that part of the road meant primarily for pedestrians, which a cycle parking area isn't.

So what would the secondary, tertiary etc uses be, if it is not solely for the use of pedestrians?

unionman

taconnol wrote: »

Although being female, I'd prefer someone like this to portray me:

Ah, fair enough, I didn't realise:o

I'll just claim artistic licence:)

Macha

No worries

What this thread has taught me is that:

a)Irish lawmakers suck

b)as long as the current pitiful lack of proper cycling facilities continues, I shall be locking my bike to lamp posts (while being mindful of pedestrians) and using Lumen's advice if confronted by angry business men (who, by the way, are generally the same people who give out about homeless people..)

c) Hollywood is calling

blorg

monument wrote: »

Better still, consult a lawyer **

We are talking about locking a bike to a lamppost here, don't you think that's overkill.

"I just killed someone drink-driving" = consult a lawyer
"I just locked my bike to a lamp-post" = discuss on internet

flickerx

monument wrote: »

There appears to be a distinct lack of bike parking around places like O'Connell Street

Amen to that. When they "upgraded" the street (i.e. took away all the beautiful old trees that had been there for more than a hundred years), they also removed all the bike lockups, around the south end, also around near where the spike is, and in front of the Savoy. The lockups in front of Easons are ALWAYS full no matter the time of day. The Council architects probably have some bull**** about not wanting "clutter" in their newly designed street, but of course bottom line is that the bikes end up being locked to lamposts and young trees all the time.

Lab_Mouse

Keep locking them to lamp posts,apart from being a trip hazard when they fall over i just love bending their wheels,puts a smile on my face:D

Gavin

flickerx wrote: »

Amen to that. When they "upgraded" the street (i.e. took away all the beautiful old trees that had been there for more than a hundred years).

Off topic, but those trees were actually dying and wouldn't last a few more years. My zealous tree loving girlfriend went nuts when they cut them down and went and investigated.

monument

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Did you deliberately omit the RoTR?

No, I didn't, just forgot at the time of posting... does it contain anything on bicycle parking?

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

BTW A quick search on citizensinformation.ie revealed nothing to me on the topic at hand.

Yeah, it does however contain pages on parking referring to motorist (which leads me to further believe such laws are only aimed at motorists.

blorg wrote: »

We are talking about locking a bike to a lamppost here, don't you think that's overkill.

I said that was "a general comment on the posting of sections of acts"... I also noted: "Not that any of my post above matters as it is highly unlikely to end in court in the first place".

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

Keep locking them to lamp posts,apart from being a trip hazard when they fall over i just love bending their wheels,puts a smile on my face:D

If you're not joking, I hope to add you to the list of people who I've helped got detained/arrested for abusing bicycles. :pac:

The last two were just looking for it... although they were extremely foolishly... they were dragging and bouncing the bike around towards a Garda station, passing at least two Garda CCTV cameras, and ending up flinging the bike out on the road while two Garda were running up behind them from the station a mere meters away. Their foolishness was quite bemusing and amusing.

Lumen

taconnol wrote: »

a)Irish lawmakers suck

I dunno, it's quite impressive that they used the word "autobus" in a piece of 1997 legislation.

"Autobus driver, your dramatic manoeuvre almost unseated me from my mechanical horse! You cad!"

cyclopath2001

Ok, wearing my tin-foil hat, now I think where we're at is that parking at lamp posts might be illegal (although I accept there is some valid basis for argument against) but the powers-that-be don't want to hassle people over it as then they'd be under pressure to provide proper cycle parking facilities where they're needed.

So, as usual, we get an 'Irish' solution.