Ben&Jerry's Black and Tan Ice Cream

cailin_donn

I'm not sure if there's already a thread with this, but here goes:

Is noone else offended by this Ice Cream? B&J's claim they "had no idea" of the links of the name with the actual Black and Tans but please, how many people work for B&J's? And not ONE of them have Irish ancestery? Every other day every 2nd person is "Irish"!!!

And the carton now isn't too bad but when I first saw it in Chicago in Feb 2008 it had -prepare yourself- it had men with guns in a brown uniform, along with a cow and ore guns around the package.

"Coincidence" was it?

peanuthead

any pics of the tub?

humanji

cailin_donn wrote: »

And the carton now isn't too bad but when I first saw it in Chicago in Feb 2008 it had -prepare yourself- it had men with guns in a brown uniform, along with a cow and ore guns around the package.

Are you sure about that? The ice cream has been about since about 2006 and Ben and Jerry's know that there were people who had problems with it. They would not be stupid enough to make packaging like you described, would they?

mollydolly271

thats mad any pics??

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Go way would ya.

1916 was ages ago.

I like ice-cream.

Acacia

Why would any confectionery product have guns on their packaging? War / military is hardly the type of thing that they would potential customers to relate the product to. Ben and Jerry's seem like a load of hippies anyway - so I seriously doubt your claim to have seen such a tub, sorry. :pac: Unless you can provide pics, of course.

cailin_donn

unfortunately, no, there is no photographic evidence.
im not THAT tourist-y that I would bring my camera to the "supermarket" (hehe)
but honestly there was a man with a gun on the packaging. I wouldn't have gotten so worked up if there wasn't!

and 1916 wasn't ages ago! less than 100 years! thats nothing!:cool:

Mr E

The PC brigade strikes again....

http://www.thisnext.com/media/230x230/Ben-Jerrys-Black-Tan-ice-cream_3D8A4EF3.jpg

No guns. Surprise! :rolleyes:

mike65

That cow on the left is concealing a weapon.




























An Uddermatic machine gun. :pac:

Mike

toiletduck

Pfft, yanks have been ordering Black and Tans in pubs for years. Why no controversy with that?

cailin_donn

PC brigade? call me blonde but i dont get it :pac:

ha ha uddermatic machine gun..... that's pretty good....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

How about Tiocfaidh Orange instead...?

cailin_donn

toiletduck- i've never in my life heard of the drink black and tan (up until now obviously) but other than that i think its just in america they have them? they wouldnt go down well in ireland!

anyone notice how people always take the piss out of the irish? they're lucky we dont take stuff seriously.... imagine they called an icecream al queda.... the B&J HQ would be in flames by the end of the week....:p

D-Generate

I remember last summer being offered an Irish Carbomb at a house party! Shot of Baileys and Jameson chased by Guinness! Every house party I was at someone would offer me one. For all that talk about the U.S being PC, they aren't too in touch with Irish history. But then again who cares, its food/drink, not a statement of offence.

toiletduck

cailin_donn wrote: »

toiletduck- i've never in my life heard of the drink black and tan (up until now obviously) but other than that i think its just in america they have them? they wouldnt go down well in ireland!

I've been working in bars since I was 16, it's the yanks name for the drink alright and they use it over here a lot and is quite common to be asked for by them (in my experience). I dont think I've ever met a barstaff who didn't know it. And I've never seen a person so much as blink when one has been ordered.

Fratton Fred

Where do you think the term "Black and Tans" came from.

The drink (Pale Ale and Stout) predates the Black and Tans in Ireland.

ejmaztec

Ben and Jerry's Black and Tan ice-cream has been brought up several times, in more ways than one. :pac:

RoosterIllusion

The name (with regard to the soldiers in the early 20th century) derived from the colour of their uniform.

I have no idea where the name of the icecream came from. My assumption is that the black refers the black in a pint of stout and the tan refers to the head, though only sh!t pints of stout have tan or yellow heads.

Who cares anyway man, I have never seen it on sale here in Ireland.

Zebra3

Sean_K wrote: »

Go way would ya.

1916 was ages ago.

I like ice-cream.

What has 1916 got to do with a thread about the Black And Tans?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Zebra3 wrote: »

What has 1916 got to do with a thread about the Black And Tans?

I can't remember the exact story now, but i'm pretty sure the words tongue and cheek fit in there somewhere:P

Snickers Man

Is this thread for real?

FFS, if you get "offended" by an ice cream named after a drink, after which a successful stable of greyhounds was named in the early 20th century which eventually led to a hastily recruited paramilitary gang being assigned the nickname of a nickname of a nickname, thanks to the mismatched emergency clothing they had to wear, then you really are too thin-skinned to survive in this rough old world.


If this troubles you, how are you going to cope in years to come when some smart ass radio shock jock rings you up and tells you he's shagged your grand daughter?

Grow up, people.

MarchDub

Snickers Man wrote: »

Is this thread for real?

FFS, if you get "offended" by an ice cream named after a drink, after which a successful stable of greyhounds was named in the early 20th century which eventually led to a hastily recruited paramilitary gang being assigned the nickname of a nickname of a nickname, thanks to the mismatched emergency clothing they had to wear, then you really are too thin-skinned to survive in this rough old world.


If this troubles you, how are you going to cope in years to come when some smart ass radio shock jock rings you up and tells you he's shagged your grand daughter?

Grow up, people.

I disagree - language is powerful and it is foolish and ignorant to believe otherwise. The most important aspect of any historic event or conflict is ownership of the language surrounding it - or propaganda. History really is written by the winners - and for good reason. To be ignorant of or to not honour one's own history is to leave it to others to own and spin.

There is accepted world wide sensibility around many words, Nazi, Holocaust, Al Queda for example, and I can't see ice cream being named after any of these. I think we Irish have a right to the words that belong to our history - no matter their original provenance - and see that they are not denigrated or sanitized.

Look at the world wide commemoration today for WWI - why should we accept this yet not be able to respect and remember the atrocities that occurred on our own home soil?

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

I disagree - language is powerful and it is foolish and ignorant to believe otherwise. The most important aspect of any historic event or conflict is ownership of the language surrounding it - or propaganda. History really is written by the winners - and for good reason. To be ignorant of or to not honour one's own history is to leave it to others to own and spin.

There is accepted world wide sensibility around many words, Nazi, Holocaust, Al Queda for example, and I can't see ice cream been named after any of these. I think we Irish have a right to the words that belong to our history - no matter their original provenance - and see that they are not denigrated or sanitized.

Look at the world wide commemoration today for WWI - why should we accept this yet not be able to respect and remember the atrocities that occurred on our own home soil?

there are 6,700,000,000 people on this planet. 6,696,000,000 of whom think a Black and Tan is a Stout and Pale ale. Please stop being over sensitive about a very trivial matter.

Blame the people who named them after a drink if you want to get silly about it.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

MarchDub wrote: »

I disagree - language is powerful and it is foolish and ignorant to believe otherwise. The most important aspect of any historic event or conflict is ownership of the language surrounding it - or propaganda. History really is written by the winners - and for good reason. To be ignorant of or to not honour one's own history is to leave it to others to own and spin.

There is accepted world wide sensibility around many words, Nazi, Holocaust, Al Queda for example, and I can't see ice cream been named after any of these. I think we Irish have a right to the words that belong to our history - no matter their original provenance - and see that they are not denigrated or sanitized.

Look at the world wide commemoration today for WWI - why should we accept this yet not be able to respect and remember the atrocities that occurred on our own home soil?

It's silly to take the past too seriously. We should learn to laugh about things, especially in hindsight.

For instance you've got the concept of a Grammar Nazi on the internet. It's tongue in cheek. I doubt anyone has a problem with it.

You've got Jew jokes, Maddie jokes, IRA jokes, Paddy jokes, Yank jokes bla bla bla. All rooted in history. And few would have a problem with them tbh.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

there are 6,700,000,000 people on this planet. 6,696,000,000 of whom think a Black and Tan is a Stout and Pale ale. Please stop being over sensitive about a very trivial matter.

Blame the people who named them after a drink if you want to get silly about it.

This is a silly argument in itself - as if justice should be meted out only by deed poll. Minorities are usually the ones with the short end of any justice - you ought to at least know this.

I already answered about the provenance of the word so your reply is a moot point.


Many innocent Irish families suffered directly because of the Black and Tan presence in Ireland. It is no trivial matter. So we will have to differ on that point.

My opinion remains the same.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

This is a silly argument in itself - as if justice should be meted out only by deed poll. Minorities are usually the ones with the short end of any justice - you ought to at least know this.

I already answered about the provenance of the word so your reply is a moot point.


Many innocent Irish families suffered directly because of the Black and Tan presence in Ireland. It is no trivial matter. So we will have to differ on that point.

My opinion remains the same.

wtf has justice got to do with it? Black and Tan is a name used widely across the world for a type of drink, The fact that the irish chose to use it as a nickname for the irregular forces that came over last century is neither here nor there.

Shall we ask them to also ban their Lime flavour ice cream because it is a derogatory name for the British?

stop looking for things to offend you, it makes life a lot easier.

toiletduck

The real question should be, is the ice cream nice?

View Profile

Here it is.

I'm not the slightest bit offended. :P

Wonder how it tastes?!

It would be great if it had little chocolate shamrocks in there.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

wtf has justice got to do with it? Black and Tan is a name used widely across the world for a type of drink, The fact that the irish chose to use it as a nickname for the irregular forces that came over last century is neither here nor there.

Shall we ask them to also ban their Lime flavour ice cream because it is a derogatory name for the British?

stop looking for things to offend you, it makes life a lot easier.

The fact that the swastika was originally an innocuous Neolithic Egyptian symbol does not render it now harmless. It became the symbol of the Nazi party and their atrocities and now it is deeply offensive to all right thinking people. It is banned from public use in Germany. No one makes the argument that it was once innocuous.

Likewise the term "Black and Tan" is a notorious symbol of British atrocities in Ireland, no matter what its origin.

Your argument also is logically flawed. We are not talking about derogatory names for the Irish i.e. your reference to "lime". If so, that would be another matter. We are talking about a name for a British auxiliary force which wrecked havoc and suffering on Ireland both on a personal level and on an economic level: like Nazis - and this not a trite comparison. On just one of their many pogroms in Ireland, the Black and Tans entered Croke Park and randomly shot and killed 14 spectators and one player.

Indeed Tim Pat Coogan has compared the violence of Churchill's Black and Tans to the kristallnacht of the Nazis. Having read many of the original sources on this, I concur.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

View Profile wrote: »

Here it is.

I'm not the slightest bit offended. :P

Wonder how it tastes?!

It would be great if it had little chocolate shamrocks in there.

That cow looks suspiciously like a mercenary. And I'm now hungry for ice-cream. Thanks a bunch.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

MarchDub wrote: »

The fact that the swastika was originally an innocuous Neolithic Egyptian symbol does not render it now harmless. It became the symbol of the Nazi party and their atrocities and now it is deeply offensive to all right thinking people. It is banned from public use in Germany. No one makes the argument that it was once innocuous.

Likewise the term "Black and Tan" is a notorious symbol of British atrocities in Ireland, no matter what its origin.

Your argument also is logically flawed. We are not talking about derogatory names for the Irish i.e. your reference to "lime". If so, that would be another matter. We are talking about a name for a British auxiliary force which wrecked havoc and suffering on Ireland both on a personal level and on an economic level: like Nazis - and this not a trite comparison. On just one of their many pogroms in Ireland, the Black and Tans entered Croke Park and randomly shot and killed 14 spectators and one player.

Indeed Tim Pat Coogan has compared the violence of Churchill's Black and Tans to the kristallnacht of the Nazis. Having read many of the original sources on this, I concur.

So by that logic anyone who owns a blue shirt should no longer refer to it as such?

Grow up.

MarchDub

Sean_K wrote: »

So by that logic anyone who owns a blue shirt should no longer refer to it as such?

Grow up.

What principal of logic would that be? You obviously don't know much history if you think that the blueshirts committed atrocities and mayhem on the scale of the Black and Tans.

Read up.

Johnmb

MarchDub wrote: »

What principal of logic would that be? You obviously don't know much history if you think that the blueshirts committed atrocities and mayhem on the scale of the Black and Tans.

Read up.

I think you're doing a disservice to the very people you claim to be defending. There is a reason the people of the time gave them a nickname, as with many nicknames given to enemies, it was meant to be derogatory. Ignoring the original meanings of the term, and insisting that it should only apply to that particular group takes away the insult and therefore goes totally against what the people of the time intended. If you're so worried about the victims, then honour their intentions. A Black and Tan was not a fighter, and to call someone sent over to intimidate after something as mundane as a Black and Tan was quite an insult, and a way for the people to counteract the intimidation even if they weren't in a position to actually fight.

MarchDub

Johnmb wrote: »

I think you're doing a disservice to the very people you claim to be defending. There is a reason the people of the time gave them a nickname, as with many nicknames given to enemies, it was meant to be derogatory. Ignoring the original meanings of the term, and insisting that it should only apply to that particular group takes away the insult and therefore goes totally against what the people of the time intended. If you're so worried about the victims, then honour their intentions. A Black and Tan was not a fighter, and to call someone sent over to intimidate after something as mundane as a Black and Tan was quite an insult, and a way for the people to counteract the intimidation even if they weren't in a position to actually fight.

Point taken - but the term did come to mean something horrific for those who lived at the time. And some evidence suggests that they were actually named after fierce foxhounds from Limerick, the Scarteen Black and Tans. I do remember my grandfather, who lived through it all and lost a relative to a random shooting by them, would always refer to them as the "F**king Tans". Maybe someone should name an ice cream for that!