Lecturing in law

tallaght01

Hi guys.
I have a sister in her final year of law. She's top notch, gets really high grades, and is an all round brain box.
Like me, she has some socialist tendancies :P and she's developed an interest in human rights law.

But there doesn't seem to be a lot of career guidance at her uni. She's going to do a masters in human rights law

She's looking at combining a career teaching, with her practice.

Now, I have a scientific background, where most people who teach at uni have a PhD. She's been asking me if she needs a phD in order to teach in uni, at a law school.

I didn't know the answer. But I told her I was confident I could find out on here

So, can anyone help point my sis in the right direction?

Many thanks in advance

johnnyskeleton

No, you don't need a PhD or any other doctorate to lecture in law. But it's difficult to get positions as lecturers.

There are a lot of young barristers and solicitors who wish to lecture/tutor law, and as such the law schools have a lot of people to choose from.

She should bear in mind the following:

1) An LLM (Masters in Law) or a PhD/LLD will help a good bit. Most colleges are looking for more academically minded lecturers rather than practitioners (although practitioners are still popular in Kings Inns, Law Society and Griffith) and many require that you be a full time academic and give up practice.

2) Something to distinguish her in a particular field is her best bet, so for Human Rights she could try to write a book on Human Rights, or if she writes a number of articles about recent changes in Human Rights Law. Working for the UN or some other body might help, but I can't say how much. The people who can literally walk into lecturing positions are usually the ones who have written big text books on the subject or are otherwise considered the academic authority on a subject.

3) A professional qualification is probably better than a masters, but having both is better still.

4) She may have to do a few years of tutorials and by-the-hour lecturing before getting a salaried position as a lecturer.

In short, while you don't need a PhD to teach law, it's probably just as hard obtaining the other qualifications/distinctions.

How have you recovered since that Wednesday last year ?

tallaght01

Cheers Johnnyskeleton.

That info is much appreciated. I'll send her a link to your post.

Thanks for taking the time.

Oh, and that "other wednesday" is now a distant painful memory, thanks :P Just reading your reminder brought a tiny tear to my eye lol

Amazotheamazing

See post 5 in this thread.


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054945766

maidhc

Personally I wouldn't recommmend doing a masters in HR law, for the simple reason there are a lot of people out there with just that. It isn't the most business friendly LLM to have either, as people who have HR issues tend not to be able to pay.

My own experience from teaching part time and getting stuck in academic stuff (largely against my will...) is that even universities are anxious to court the business dollars, and an LLM on PhD in something like intellectual property law will make you much more valuable.

Victor

Is there lecturing time as part of the masters? One usually has to do some sort of 'work' as part of a masters, lecturing, tutoring, lab supervision, etc.

I think going straight from being a law student to being a law lecturer with having any professional experience does a disservice to both lecturer and students.

She could also look at lecturing law to non-law students - business, construction, etc. often have contract, tort, land, etc. modules.

hada

Funnily enough, academia is the route I'm currently embarking on so you might find what i say a bit usefull!

Anyway, I believe (and this is backed up by career advice I had sought from one of ireland's leading criminal jurists) a PhD is a must for any budding academic. You may get a job in an I.T. lecturing, but you will need an LLM from a damn fine university first (think Oxbridge, LSE)

From that, a PhD is very very useful. What your sister could do, if her grades (as you've noted) are at a 1.1 level (and her class ranking is top 2-5%) is apply to Oxbridge do an MPhil and after one year have it extended to a PhD, this will give her the credentials to get a job anywhere in the world.

Personally, I'm embarking on an LLM in England next year, training for two years with a dublin firm and then travelling to the states to an ivy league to complete a PhD. If she follows that blueprint, there is absolutely nothing stopping her becoming a legal consultant expert in a certain niche of law in a place like Ireland.

maidhc

hada wrote: »

Funnily enough, academia is the route I'm currently embarking on so you might find what i say a bit usefull!

Anyway, I believe (and this is backed up by career advice I had sought from one of ireland's leading criminal jurists) a PhD is a must for any budding academic. You may get a job in an I.T. lecturing, but you will need an LLM from a damn fine university first (think Oxbridge, LSE)

From that, a PhD is very very useful. What your sister could do, if her grades (as you've noted) are at a 1.1 level (and her class ranking is top 2-5%) is apply to Oxbridge do an MPhil and after one year have it extended to a PhD, this will give her the credentials to get a job anywhere in the world.

Personally, I'm embarking on an LLM in England next year, training for two years with a dublin firm and then travelling to the states to an ivy league to complete a PhD. If she follows that blueprint, there is absolutely nothing stopping her becoming a legal consultant expert in a certain niche of law in a place like Ireland.

I completely disagree. I think it depends to a large extent on who you know. This goes for any job, and it is only natural. If x person knows you are pretty competent and would fit in well, you will get job offers from x, even if person y looks better on paper (and may even be better). The devil you know is better than the devil you don't etc.

There is no such thing as a blueprint to success.

hada

maidhc wrote: »

I completely disagree. I think it depends to a large extent on who you know. This goes for any job, and it is only natural. If x person knows you are pretty competent and would fit in well, you will get job offers from x, even if person y looks better on paper (and may even be better). The devil you know is better than the devil you don't etc.

There is no such thing as a blueprint to success.

From your post, I'm not sure you're quite familiar with how the majority of lecturing jobs are secured.

Applicants are asked to submit a CV to say, TCD. Then a shortlist is made from those CVs, THEN a small few are called to interview.

If you don't have an impressive CV (i.e. LLM from Oxbridge, PhD etc etc) you will not be shortlisted unless of course there are extenuating circumstances that would otherwise lead those in charge (usually the Head of the Law Faculty, The Dean and a member of HR) to believe you have something exceptional to offer their faculty. Simple as.

You have to remember law faculty's are by far one of the most competitive of all departments in a university. Especially nowadays, each law school (TCD, NUIG, UCC...etc) are trying to out do each other with the quality of academics they offer.

As I said (and I get this from a very well respected Irish jurist). No qualifications on paper, no chance of securing a decent job.

Unless of course you want to spend your life tutoring four to eight hours a week for 25euro/hour - which I do know plenty of people stuck doing.

dK1NG

Best advice on the matter, imo, can be found here - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52497730&postcount=5

maidhc wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't recommmend doing a masters in HR law, for the simple reason there are a lot of people out there with just that. It isn't the most business friendly LLM to have either, as people who have HR issues tend not to be able to pay.

My own experience from teaching part time and getting stuck in academic stuff (largely against my will...) is that even universities are anxious to court the business dollars, and an LLM on PhD in something like intellectual property law will make you much more valuable.

I totally disagree.

Certainly universities will court money as you say, but that is not confined to business related areas. Human rights, criminal justice, socio-legal studies are now on the increase in Ireland, and the amount of funding opportunities for universities in areas such as these are wide and varied.

An LLM/ PhD in I.P. will not be much use to you if the lecturing position advertised specifies specialisation in human rights or whatever. My take on th ematter is the OP's sister should go with what interests her - no point doing an LLM/ PhD in an area that she has no interest in. Also, it seems as if she wants to go into practice in the future - if so, why is she considering lecturing alongside this? Is it to make herself more attractive to potential employers, to go into consultancy in the future, etc. Important question she must ask herslef imo.

hada wrote: »

Anyway, I believe (and this is backed up by career advice I had sought from one of ireland's leading criminal jurists) a PhD is a must for any budding academic. You may get a job in an I.T. lecturing, but you will need an LLM from a damn fine university first (think Oxbridge, LSE)

This seems to be the way lecturing is going at the moment in law depts throughout the country. The emphasis is on PhDs rather than practice, but that is not to say that qualified solrs/ barristers do not get jobs teaching.

maidhc wrote: »

I completely disagree. I think it depends to a large extent on who you know. This goes for any job, and it is only natural. If x person knows you are pretty competent and would fit in well, you will get job offers from x, even if person y looks better on paper (and may even be better). The devil you know is better than the devil you don't etc.

There is no such thing as a blueprint to success.

I disagree completely!!!!

The only bit of this that makes some bit of sense is the bit in bold. If there is a choice between two equal candidates, one internal and the other external, the fact that the dept knows how the internal candidate works, fits in etc might be a deciding factor. I do not believe there is any nepotism or whatever in the university sector today (at least in law depts, I cant speak of other depts.)



Just my two cents on the matter.:)

maidhc

dK1NG wrote: »

I disagree completely!!!!

The only bit of this that makes some bit of sense is the bit in bold. If there is a choice between two equal candidates, one internal and the other external, the fact that the dept knows how the internal candidate works, fits in etc might be a deciding factor. I do not believe there is any nepotism or whatever in the university sector today (at least in law depts, I cant speak of other depts.)

I think we are in more agreement than you think. I'm not saying for a second a univeristy will hire the inferior candidate, just that if you are known in the faculty (through tutoring or whatever), you stand a much better chance... however if a world expert from wherever applies you are going to get pretty much blown out of the water.

dK1NG wrote: »

An LLM/ PhD in I.P. will not be much use to you if the lecturing position advertised specifies specialisation in human rights or whatever. My take on th ematter is the OP's sister should go with what interests her - no point doing an LLM/ PhD in an area that she has no interest in. Also, it seems as if she wants to go into practice in the future - if so, why is she considering lecturing alongside this? Is it to make herself more attractive to potential employers, to go into consultancy in the future, etc. Important question she must ask herslef imo.

And vice versa. Obviously she should do a PhD in what interests her, it will be a long 3 years otherwise.

but

the country is a bit top heavy with people with human rights phds at the moment. I don't think there are as many people with phds in more commerical areas, and as such jobs should be more freely available. Lets face it, you won't succeed with a consultancy in human rights, solicitors rarely even get paid for running HR cases.