Question for socialists/communists/anarchists

Red Hand

I read this forum from time to time, and I like reading some of the ideas seen here, especially the ideas from the socialist/communist/anarchist spectrum.

I've a question regarding human behaviour: if a more equal society than the one that we currently is ever going to be brought about, how would you deal with greed and the desire amongst many people to better themselves (and thus their offspring), be it through wealth or social status (which is often linked to wealth)? To clarify, if a certain standard of living is reached in a society where everyone is roughly equal, how do you stop certain people from trying to gain an even better standard for themselves (and their offspring)?

Or do ye think that that is a learned behaviour in capitalist society and in a future society, people wouldn't behave that way?

brianthebard

Well how are they to achieve this better standard, if the standard everyone else has is already good enough? Is it through illegal activity or something else?

Red Hand

I suppose what I am trying to ask, is how do you stop people from manipulating others and situations so as to gain an advantage for themselves and their offspring? I'll use an example. If a person, say, needs a kidney but has to join a waiting list like his/her equals, is it not natural to assume that some people will try, through illegal means, or simply through manipulation, to gain such a advantage so as to move to the top of that list?

Instead of kidney in that example, you can read food/natural resourses/treasured objects. How do you stop certain people from trying to cream off extra for themselves and their cronies, or gain an advantage over others, no matter how "irrational"? Even if it doesn't result in a better standard of living....it is just the drive to acquire asserting itself?

I know that some would say, "Well, people wouldn't do that as it wouldn't make any sense to do that. They would have a good standard of living as it was, and wouldn't need to cream off a surplus". But people do this anyway as the world is. How about many of the richest business people in the world? They already have enough....way more than enough for a high standard of living. But they still need to acquire as it is a challenge to them to try and take even more. It's like the drive to acquire and get the better of others is born in them. They need to come out on top.

So, again, how do you stop such people, people who dominate, manipulate, are highly intelligent and charismatic, from seizing an advantage? I won't say Alpha males....but something like that concept.

brianthebard

Well in your first examples they are carrying out illegal acts...how do we prevent that happening now? Obviously not all crimes can be punished, but policing would have to happen in a socialist state as well, so I don't see how that is an issue.

You seem to be taking the old line that in a socialist state everyone has to be paid the same and there is no room for rewarding those that excell. That is not the case and is a little silly to suggest imo. But if we were to assume for whatever reason that everyone would get paid the same, there's no reason why bonus' couldn't be used at the end of the year for exceptional work. Or it could be a non monetary reward, it could be a reduction in working hours or an extra holiday, or many other things. There's no reason to believe that a socialist society is going to treat every citizen as grey little underlings and that no one will have a chance to achieve.

bigstar

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

So, again, how do you stop such people, people who dominate, manipulate, are highly intelligent and charismatic, from seizing an advantage? I won't say Alpha males....but something like that concept.

through regulation, of which there is not nearly enough of in a capitalist free trade economy

tolosenc

By limitinf freedom. Duh!

Communism seeks only to pit regulations against human nature. That and destroy us all.

DadaKopf

OP, if you look at Marx, one of his core realisations was that feudalism and capitalism are particular forms of social relations. That means that the manner in which human beings relate to each other through their economic, social, cultural and personal interactions are connected with the precise ways that these two different systems function. When the present system gives way to something else, the argument goes, human beings will, again, relate to each other differently.

So it stands to reason, therefore, that what you say could be a thing of the past. Under capitalism, I would say it certainly engenders certain forms of human behaviour, some of which you mention.

Personally, I don't believe that these 'bad things' can be put away for ever. We'll never be able to be sure whether it's nature or nurture, and I personally think it's neither/nor - I'm perfectly content to say that they're interrelated and will never find resolution.

To summarise, the world will never be perfect. But if we have a belief in what a just world will be, we could create it, because we know greed causes grief and we understand, as human beings, to prevent that. But we need to constantly guard against it. Democracy is never complete, it's a constant struggle for perfection, knowing it can never be achieved.

Húrin

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

I read this forum from time to time, and I like reading some of the ideas seen here, especially the ideas from the socialist/communist/anarchist spectrum.

I've a question regarding human behaviour: if a more equal society than the one that we currently is ever going to be brought about, how would you deal with greed and the desire amongst many people to better themselves (and thus their offspring), be it through wealth or social status (which is often linked to wealth)? To clarify, if a certain standard of living is reached in a society where everyone is roughly equal, how do you stop certain people from trying to gain an even better standard for themselves (and their offspring)?

Or do ye think that that is a learned behaviour in capitalist society and in a future society, people wouldn't behave that way?

I think problems like this are caused by pride. Individualist ideologies and competition encourage pride.

pokerpaddy

i think people would begin to realise that acts of dominance or greed eventually destroy their security.

i would be pro a meritocracy where those who work harder get a slightly better standard of living than those who work less.