Confusing Sign

petethedrummer

This sign is on the North Strand road into town. There is a bus lane and to the left behind a wall is a cycle lane on the pavement. The cycle lane is a solid line one so I presume it is of the mandatory variety.

Strictly legally speaking, do I have to follow the cycle lane or by virtue of the sign is the bus lane equally legal?



A bus driver roared out the window at me to use the cycle lane, then cut me up and forced me into the wall.

cyclopath2001

petethedrummer wrote: »

This sign is on the North Strand road into town. There is a bus lane and to the left behind a wall is a cycle lane on the pavement. The cycle lane is a solid line one so I presume it is of the mandatory variety.

I know that spot very well. The lower sign is not one of the two 'cycle track' signs prescribed by law. The surface markings that follow it are only partial having been destroyed by construction work over a year ago. It's also a problem, that cars are parked on it, blocking the access back onto the roadway at the traffic lights and creating visibilty problems at the junction.

By law, cyclists are required to use any 'cycle track' that is provided. It's arguable that there is no 'cycle track' as the appropriate sign has not been used or, that if there is one, the fact that its is one of the type mandated by law is unclear due to the City Council's failure to use the appropriate sign.

I cycle in the bus lane instead.

Report the bus driver for dangerous driving, even if he's right about the cycle track, he's no right to assault you with his bus.

Chips Lovell

Yes, the lower sign isn't mentioned at all in cycling leglislation. It's been discussed here before, but if you were to use lanes marked with these signs then technically you'd be cycling on the footpath.

blorg

@Pete, there are actually bus lane signs in existence WITHOUT the bike on them (on the QBC on the N11 between Cabinteely and Cornelscourt for example, where there is also an off-road bike path) so I can only imagine a bus lane sign that also includes a bicycle indicates that bikes can use the bus lane.

Oh, and definitely report the driver, I have had the same happen to me as have many others, one day one of these psychos will kill a cyclist.

petethedrummer

Cheers lads.

The complaint letter is already written. Do I send it to Dublin bus or go to the Gardaí instead.

the_syco

petethedrummer wrote: »

Cheers lads.

The complaint letter is already written. Do I send it to Dublin bus or go to the Gardaí instead.

Both. Please ensure that the bus number, time, location, etc, is in the letter, so that DB can ID the driver. Also, it's a letter of complaint to DB, it's a letter about an assault to the Gardai, but may be better to go in, and make a report about it yourself, when going to the Gardai about it.

Raam

The cycle track/lane/path at that point is beyond funny. Clearly the person who designed it hasn't a notion about cyclists needs.

petethedrummer

the_syco wrote: »

Both. Please ensure that the bus number, time, location, etc, is in the letter, so that DB can ID the driver. Also, it's a letter of complaint to DB, it's a letter about an assault to the Gardai, but may be better to go in, and make a report about it yourself, when going to the Gardai about it.

Its all in there, as are pictures of the sign and the bus. Unfortunately the picture of the driver didn't come out too clearly. I can snap him again.

I'll report to both.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

Unfortunately the picture of the driver didn't come out too clearly. I can snap him again

Are you still sitting on him?

cyclopath2001

petethedrummer wrote: »

Its all in there, as are pictures of the sign and the bus. Unfortunately the picture of the driver didn't come out too clearly. I can snap him again.

I'll report to both.

Don't get side tracked in arguing about the existence/non-existence of a cycle track. If you do, they'll probably change the sign and make us all use it.

The essential matter is the driver's behaviour.

Trojan

What cyclopath2001 said. I use that bus lane all the time. Don't let them force us up on to that ****ty cycle path, it's one of the worst in the entire city.

I'd demand Dublin Bus to take action to inform all drivers that assaulting cyclists is a serious offense, and mention that you are prepared to press charges.

SerialComplaint

I've had better response with the Gardai by making reports to the TrafficWatch line (1890-205805) in the first instance. It gets logged on the system for follow up at the local station. I fear that some reports made in the local station get filed in the bin.

daymobrew

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I've had better response with the Gardai by making reports to the TrafficWatch line (1890-205805) in the first instance. It gets logged on the system for follow up at the local station. I fear that some reports made in the local station get filed in the bin.

I agree with the second point (filed in bin).

My experience with TrafficWatch has been mixed - they've only responded to 52 of the 129 reports (40%) I've made since September 2006. Blanchardstown station is really bad, only responding to about 33% (I keep meaning to raise this with them).
The 40% figure is slightly misleading - they often wait months to follow up, at which time doing anything is pointless (and unfair - both parties are likely to have forgotten the incident).

Lumen

daymobrew wrote: »

129 reports (40%) I've made since September 2006.

I think you should join the guards. Seriously.

daymobrew

Lumen wrote: »

I think you should join the guards. Seriously.

A Garda or two has said the same thing.
I think, like any part of the pathetic sector public sector in this country any enthusiasm you have going in will be drained from you quick enough.

Having said all that, they should be MUCH more responsive. I'm actually doing most of the work for them.

xz

one of the blokes that I cycle with regularly is a Garda, I've asked his opinion on similar matters to this, regarding cycle lanes, and his response was that he used the bus lanes too as the cycle tracks are either on the footpath, which technically is illegal to ride on, or in a sorry state of disrepair.
If stopped by the Gardai, to politely explain the state of said cycle tracks, and that you value your safety more so than risking it on these messed up tracks

cyclopath2001

xz wrote: »

as the cycle tracks are either on the footpath, which technically is illegal to ride on,

The law does provide for cycling on a footway as long as the correct sign is used and the cycling part of the footway is marked with continuous white lines on either side.

Mostly, the councils don't know the law or deliberately leave out one ingredient or other so as to leave a plausible deniability if someone is injured using one of their creations and sues.

SerialComplaint

daymobrew wrote: »

Garda or two has said the same thing.
I think, like any part of the pathetic sector public sector in this country any enthusiasm you have going in will be drained from you quick enough.
.

I've seen both the public and private sectors from the inside and the outside, and they're really not that different.

rp

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The law does provide for cycling on a footway as long as the correct sign is used and the cycling part of the footway is marked with continuous white lines on either side.

What is the correct sign? As far as I understand the various RTA's & RTR's, the UK-style "Shared use" sign (blue circle divided with peds on one side and bikes on the other) has no legal standing here: the only two upright signs are RUS009 (white bike on blue b/ground) and RUS009a (black bike in red circle). The legal opinions I've gotten suggest that obeying a non-sign could put you in the wrong.

petethedrummer

SerialComplaint wrote: »

I've seen both the public and private sectors from the inside and the outside, and they're really not that different.

I have to say, I totally concur. I've seen as many useless wasters in the private sector as public.

Bunnyhopper

The signage is defined in Section 14 of S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997

Cycle Tracks


14. (1) Where traffic sign numbers RUS 009 or RUS 009A and either RRM 022 or RRM 023 [cycle track] are provided, the part of road to which they relate shall be a cycle track.

Those signs are defined in S.I. No. 181/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (SIGNS) REGULATIONS, 1997. (Unfortunately the jpegs don't show up on that website.)

It does give these definitions:

NINTH SCHEDULE [...] 2. Traffic sign number RUS 009A shall consist of a white disc with a red border and shall contain a black symbol of a bicycle to indicate a cycle track.

Cycle Track.


26. (1) Traffic sign number RRM 022 shall—
(a) indicate the right hand edge of a cycle track where it forms part of a roadway, and
(b) consist of a continuous white line approximately 100 millimetres or 150 millimetres wide.

(2) Traffic sign number RRM 023 shall—
(a) indicate the right and left hand edges of a cycle track where it forms part of a footway, and
(b) consist of continuous white lines approximately 100 millimetres or 150 millimetres wide and spaced approximately 1 metre apart.

I can't locate anything about RUS 009, which I think is the circular one with a white bike on a blue background. If anyone (cyclopath? ) knows what it is then let us know. Likewise, if anyone has images of the signs then post them. Thanks.

Just for the record, the main laws that I know of regarding cycleways/lanes/tracks are:

No. 14/1993: ROADS ACT, 1993
Section 68 defines a "cycleway";

S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997
Section 4 (1) defines a "cycle track" (subsequently amended - see below)
Section 14 includes the dreaded mandatory-use law, but also gives that information about signage
Section 47 (1) makes cycling more than two-abreast illegal - I wonder how that applies to races or something like the Dublin City Cycle;

S.I. No. 274/1998: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1998
Section 4 (a) amends the definition of a cycle track given in Sub-article (1) of article 4 of S.I. No. 182/1997 and thereby (thanks very much to the PDs) allows for parking etc. in cycle tracks.



I've asked on here before about what constitutes a declaration by order ("shall by order declare" in Roads Act, 1993, Sect. 68) and where one might get a list of such declarations. It might be time to start annoying the councils' roads departments.

How much is an FOI request costing these days?