Education Cuts

Trotter

Just to cover a gap here, I haven't started a thread on the ridiculous cuts in education because there's already a thread running in the politics forum.

It is very interesting to see how many think that the solution to the problem is to make the teachers pay.

Here's the thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055406743

ytareh

Oh Dear God!Anti teacher sentiment has broken out everywhere!They were at it on the radio (Matt Cooper guest and text comments) and this thread has almost spoiled my day (almost!).The pensioners and low paid came out shining from their protests ,we try and get the kids a break and they turn on us!Sickening!No complaints from the private sector when their outlook was rosy and we were lagging far behind...

gaeilgegrinds

I think we'd all be better staying at home, have worked out what some of our teachers will be getting after their contracts are cut, hardly worth it. But they'll perservere cos believe it or not, as some of ye know, we do it mostly for the kids.

freire

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

But they'll perservere cos believe it or not, as some of ye know, we do it mostly for the kids.

I'd love to believe this to be true but unfortunately personal experience informs an opinion to the contrary. Whatever way you look at it there is a high rate of absenteeism in our profession - perhaps understandable in the context of the stress related to the job. A good percentage of teachers are sitting pretty with more interest in their own perks and navel gazing, stuck in their ways and ineffective in the classroom. There's a lot of problems in teaching and maybe it's time we faced up to a few home truths.

I'm not trying to annoy anyone here. Just stimulate debate maybe.

byhookorbycrook

most primary teachers I know will turn up for work no matter how ill they are,it's easier than having a class split and foisting the children on other classes.

gaeilgegrinds

Perhaps the comments on absent teachers are true but I really don't know of another job where one uses their voice and whole body as much as we do. And, I've never missed a day. Ever. And most will come in if they can at all.

freire

My comments on absenteeism were not directed at any one in particular - of course most teachers will come in if at all possible but at the same time a percentage will take advantage of the inherent weaknesses in the system.

I for one think that reform is needed. As a neophyte teacher it's pretty sickening to realise that I'll probably be on part time, temp whole time or other contracts for quite a long time while others ore on sabbaticals, job shares, career breaks (5 years) and generally blocking a post.

I would also have to question a system that awards workers increases in salaries for simply getting older. This is a major factor in the 'teacher going to seed' theory. People get comfortable and therefore complacent and lazy.
There is no incentive to improve individual standards (except if the individual is personally motivated, many are not). Lots more on this bet no time.

Tom Dunne

freire wrote: »

My comments on absenteeism were not directed at any one in particular - of course most teachers will come in if at all possible but at the same time a percentage will take advantage of the inherent weaknesses in the system.

I for one think that reform is needed. As a neophyte teacher it's pretty sickening to realise that I'll probably be on part time, temp whole time or other contracts for quite a long time while others ore on sabbaticals, job shares, career breaks (5 years) and generally blocking a post.

I would also have to question a system that awards workers increases in salaries for simply getting older. This is a major factor in the 'teacher going to seed' theory. People get comfortable and therefore complacent and lazy.
There is no incentive to improve individual standards (except if the individual is personally motivated, many are not). Lots more on this bet no time.

In fairness, you could say that about the whole of the Public/Civil Service, it's not just teaching.

implausible

freire wrote: »

I for one think that reform is needed. As a neophyte teacher it's pretty sickening to realise that I'll probably be on part time, temp whole time or other contracts for quite a long time while others ore on sabbaticals, job shares, career breaks (5 years) and generally blocking a post.

So people shouldn't be allowed to take sabaticals, job-sharing or career breaks? Sure why not get rid of maternity leave too?!:rolleyes:

Teaching doesn't have a monopoly on these types of leave. They are part of the conditions of service of a profession which you have chosen to join!

implausible

Focusing on absenteeism is exactly the type of negative perception we are trying to fight in this profession. It isn't just the odd 'sickie' that won't be covered, it's teachers absent for sport, drama, quizzes, debates, meetings with parents, discipline and health and safety emergencies etc

And who is going to end up being put under pressure to cover these classes free gratis, when the sub/sup scheme has been exhausted? The young part-time teacher who is eager to impress.

TheDriver

Teachers always flogging the system is like the Guards always sitting eating doughnuts all day etc, generalisations are not fair on any profession and the conditions of teaching are part of the job that we chose, I rememeber when i joined during the boom of the celtic tiger, teaching was seen as a poor employment choice, didn't see anyone give out about us then.

freire

Tom Dunne wrote: »

In fairness, you could say that about the whole of the Public/Civil Service, it's not just teaching.

I agree - but this doesn't make it any more palatable. I think the whole Public sector needs a reality check. And judging by the comments I'm getting on here not too many teachers willing to enter into the fray with constructive criticism of their own profession. Heads in sand/ivory towers - not too sure what to call it but..... there are a lot of people on here moaning about not being able to find a job. The profession is oversubscribed and the professionals within it are sometimes less than dynamic. Performance just doesn't enter into the equation and that's rich coming from the people who were going on about the 'kids' and providing the best education etc.
Outraged reactions to the merest whiff of dissent/criticism does not do us any good on many levels - I have these arguments w/ non-teaching acquaintaces on a regular basis. I'm all for teaching and teachers and also for getting paid a fair salary and hols and the whole shooting match but I see a lot of pretty woeful stuff on the ground. Very far from best practice. Before people start to hammer me with the 'but most teachers do this that and the other' I know this. Those teachers would have nothing to lose and everything to gain by a process of performance assessment and subsequent reward.

freire

deemark wrote: »

And who is going to end up being put under pressure to cover these classes free gratis, when the sub/sup scheme has been exhausted? The young part-time teacher who is eager to impress.

I missed this one.
I'm part time and eager to impress (young might be stretching things) but I'm not going to work for nothing either, don't mind covering the odd class but my time is worth as much as anybody else. I don't necessarily agree with the cuts but I have problems with parts of how the 'system' operates. I think it's a good time for honest (not self-serving) debate within our profession.

TheDriver

freire wrote: »

I agree - but this doesn't make it any more palatable. I think the whole Public sector needs a reality check. And judging by the comments I'm getting on here not too many teachers willing to enter into the fray with constructive criticism of their own profession. Heads in sand/ivory towers - not too sure what to call it but..... there are a lot of people on here moaning about not being able to find a job. The profession is oversubscribed and the professionals within it are sometimes less than dynamic. Performance just doesn't enter into the equation and that's rich coming from the people who were going on about the 'kids' and providing the best education etc.
Outraged reactions to the merest whiff of dissent/criticism does not do us any good on many levels - I have these arguments w/ non-teaching acquaintaces on a regular basis. I'm all for teaching and teachers and also for getting paid a fair salary and hols and the whole shooting match but I see a lot of pretty woeful stuff on the ground. Very far from best practice. Before people start to hammer me with the 'but most teachers do this that and the other' I know this. Those teachers would have nothing to lose and everything to gain by a process of performance assessment and subsequent reward.

I agree but it needs to be fair and thats the problem. Who will do it and also if your foundation level class all get Ds but your higher level get bs, how do you assess this? Written plans don't make best teachers as WSE have found., everyone can sing from the sheet when we have to but very difficult to quantify classroom performance. Some kids don't like me because they don't get an easy time, others like me because they are made work so As much as I agree with you, i am sceptical of fair ways to monitor the profvession. The teaching council is the most useless body I have ever seen and lazy teachers are becoming the exception more than the norm

Had a read over on the other forum, you must lauagh at these people who never steped inside a classroom of teenagers ever and think we do nothing!

freire

Well at least you see where I'm coming from. Though maybe lazy teachers isn't exactly what I want to say. Just kinda complacent I suppose, not innovative to the extent that they could be. I don't use meticulously written and planned notes for my lessons though have very clear objectives etc. Totally agree on the TC comment, beyond useless, complete tokenism, absolute waste of time and money, the annual registration fee is tax by another name.

I have looked on the other forum and have posted on there also, much vitriol coming our way but like I say I get that all the time from people I know, though funnily it's mostly people who earn quite a good salary in the private sector, think it's a snobbery thing with some of them. Looking down their noses at us jumped up child minders with all our perks.

forestfruits

just wondering why they have cut the early retirement scheme- why not encourage early retirement/ redundancy - save themselves a packed by getting rid of their higher paid staff and make use of the hundreds of younger teachers who are paid a fraction of that?

whiteandlight

Tell me about it. One of my very close family was due to retire under that scheme this year, she only delayed becuase myself and my sister are still in college. Her school shut down 7 years ago and since then she has been overquota (ie a teacher received in addition to the allocated number) in a school. This means that she can be moved any september to a school within a certain radius of the originial school.
She was moved from a small mixed country school to a large single sex town school. This caused her considerable stress, there was no allowance/counselling/induction of any kind in relation to the closing school or beginning a new job after 20 odd years in one job. She developed a heart condition which has been exacerbated by stress.
She has now been in the new school for seven years and will (according to the union) probably be moved again in september as the numbers have dropped in the new school. While she is a permanent teacher and has a level job security, this situation of being in limbo for years after a school closes is ridiculous especially considering as she is overquota the school are receiving what is essentially a free teacher at the cost of the department. If she was to retire the bill to the department would reduce considerably.
I cannot understand why abolishing this specific type of the retirement strands is in any way cost effective to the department as the majority of teachers in this situation are overquota and are costing the department quite an amount of money to keep them in full time employment.