Has the NRA "overspent" €16bn on roads, as TaraWatch claims?

Amtmann

See here: http://www.tarawatch.org/ Scroll down to their questionnaire and read Q.4

I'm thinking that that's quite impossible, and so Tara Watch is being very mendacious. Thoughts?

road_high

Presumably the 16 billion reffered to was the NRA'S total budget for 2000-2008 and more or less "in their opinion" any spending on roads has been a "waste of money"

BrianD

The question is quite rhetorical and leading. however, I would say that most NRA projects run over budget and don't looks set to continue.

Did you know that the M3 is being delivered as a single completed project? there will be no opening it in sections. Who's idea was that?

L1011

Only of the 4 motorways there will be in Meath starts at the M50 (M1)

Two of them only glance the county on their way out (M1/M4).

The last one is very, very small (N2, to be reclassified in part only).

That said, Tarawatch have never let the truth get in the way of a good argument.

Sponge Bob

Oddly enough the total amount of expenditure by the NRA ( less EU Grants) since it was founded ....and counting the next two years , is around €16bn . If Tarawatch had their way we would not even have filled our choice collection of 1980s potholes

Tarawatch are not Nimbys , they are Bananas

IIMII

BrianD wrote: »

The question is quite rhetorical and leading. however, I would say that most NRA projects run over budget and don't looks set to continue.

Did you know that the M3 is being delivered as a single completed project? there will be no opening it in sections. Who's idea was that?

It was designed and planned in sections but all built concurrently. I read somewhere hoing back that the logic was that if the top bit and the bottom bit were built then the middle bit would need to be built where it is, but again who knows anything other than building a project in one go like that is rare (possible unique even?).

I'll say this much - its a spectacular project in terms of scale - for example, there is a whole new valley hidden away at the back of the Old Bridge Inn for a new link road that when opened people will say 'where the **** did that come from'..

It's also crossing some fairly isolated countryside for much of the route that isn't seen from any roads at the moment. Unlike the N2 that was visible from the old N2 for much of it's route, the M3 will I think shock people by the scale of works hidden along the entire route.

It looks like it will be a fine section of road - it's a pity about the controversy the route caused and all of the other hassle that went with a short 3km or so section of a 50km or so road.

Aside from the road itself, I think one other thing is fairly certain. The people of Kells will be a rarity to the point of extinction anywhere in Dublin on the M50 south of the liffey in years to come

The section of road along the base of Tara on through Skryne is mainly tarmaced with the central barrier built at this stage too.

The only bridges between Navan and Dublin that don't seem to be completed are the new R125 at Dunshaughlin and the new Dunboyne exit at Pace

I'd guess it will be open within a year or so at this rate

Amtmann

Thanks for the post IIMII.

I have had mixed feelings about the M3, and not because of the heritage-based arguments against it, which in any case I don't subscribe to. My feelings towards it are slightly hostile because I think the M3 is basically just a giant rush hour conveyor belt, unlike the M6, M7 and M8, for example. I'm also hostile to the fact that it will be tolled twice, which will cost regular commuters thousands of euro extra per year. I think that a greatly improved (or new) rail line linking Kells to Dublin City Centre would have done wonders for commuters, and might have been a better long term option.

But the likes of TaraWatch really turn me off such BANANA groups, as SpongBob calls them. I've heard quite a few of its supporters say, in all seriousness, that the M3 as it is right now - perhaps 65% or more complete - should be ripped up and made green again. When they produce a questionnaire full of loaded questions as they have done, with their dogmatic opposition to any road spending quite plain to see, my feelings against them are strengthened, both emotionally and intellectually. That, and the dishonesty and distortions that punctuate the TaraWatch questionnaire.

E92

At the end of the day, last May the people of Meath had their say in who would represent them.

All 6 TDs elected by the people of Meath are in favour of the M3.

Those against the M3 lost out.

A bit like the yes side in the Lisbon Treaty who are incapable of listening and respecting the will of the people, those against the M3 are equally ignorant to the will of the people.

The M3 can't come soon enough for anyone unfortunate enough to have to go through the kind of madness those who travel on it have to suffer *every* day, and like I say the people have spoken and 100% of the TDs in Meath who were democratically elected by the people there want this, so let's move on and get the thing done.

Needless to say I'm not in agreement with Tara Watch or any of those other do gooder types.

BluntGuy

Another group prone to BANANA-ism is An Taisce. Having heard their recent comments about the M20, you have to wonder if these people just go out of their way to oppose absolutely everything.

In reponse to the questionnaire: No, the NRA has not "overspent" 16 billion euro on roads. If you were to remove that expenditure, we would've gotten nothing done in the last 8 years...

It's nonsensical statements like this that make people dislike groups like Tarawatch, despite whatever valid causes they may actually have...

Anyway, the M3 is nearing completion. There are plenty of other projects for them to try and ruin...

Sponge Bob

I always had a visceral objection to the desecration of Tara and felt that there most have been a better way . Tarawatch still attract ALL the wrong sort of BANANA types ...just like Ballinaboy does .

These are pure fundamentalist nutters . A bit like Eamon Ryan diverting all the Broadband money to eco consultants .

BrianD

E92 wrote: »

At the end of the day, last May the people of Meath had their say in who would represent them.

All 6 TDs elected by the people of Meath are in favour of the M3.

Those against the M3 lost out.

A bit like the yes side in the Lisbon Treaty who are incapable of listening and respecting the will of the people, those against the M3 are equally ignorant to the will of the people.

The M3 can't come soon enough for anyone unfortunate enough to have to go through the kind of madness those who travel on it have to suffer *every* day, and like I say the people have spoken and 100% of the TDs in Meath who were democratically elected by the people there want this, so let's move on and get the thing done.

Needless to say I'm not in agreement with Tara Watch or any of those other do gooder types.

I must say that is absolute rubbish. It is ironic that that the people of meath have yet to see the link between the FF government and the traffic jam that they are stuck in everyday, the fact that live in a badly shoebox in a dormitory village with a Spar as its local amenity and have to commute for hours each day and therefore have a poor quality of home life. The opening of the M3 will somewhat alleviate the commute but will not alleviate the other symptoms of bad planning. Of course the N3 needed an upgrade and no mainstream politician was going to object to any solution to the commute issue.

In my view the M3 is a scam. We have a lot to thank Tarawatch for in identifying part of the scam i.e. the environmental and archaelogical issues. The politicians weren't exactly coming forth with the €1,000 annual fee that every commuter living north of kells will pay. They didn't excatly explain why the N2 could be built to motorway standard without tolling. The M3 was built to facilitate further residential and commercial development along its length. This is what the FF bright sparks view as "the economy". Looks like they got that wrong too.

IIMII wrote:

... the M3 will I think shock people by the scale of works hidden along the entire route.

I wouldn't agree. There are substantial sections of the M3 that are elevated and with no landscaping. I know this as I can see a large section from the kitchen of my parents house. The only reason why the scale of the development is not apparent to existing users of the N3 is the route is largely "greenfield" unlike other road upgrades in the past that followed existing routes.

crocro

Furet wrote: »

See here: http://www.tarawatch.org/ Scroll down to their questionnaire and read Q.4

I'm thinking that that's quite impossible, and so Tara Watch is being very mendacious. Thoughts?

They were 10 billion over original estimates in the period 1999-2002 so it's possible they've gone another 6 billion over in the last 6 years.

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?Userlang=GA&DocID=688&StartDate=01+January+2007

Who cares?

steve-o

Well the NRA use pretty dodgy maths when justifying costs. A couple of years ago, the Prime Time expose of the PPP scam really showed the true cost of the motorway network. They had a senior NRA guy on explaining how the PPPs were providing motorways at very low cost to the taxpayer. He refused to accept that the billions of euro that motorists will pay in tolls over the life of the PPP were part of the cost because the central budget wasn't paying them.

Ste.phen

crocro wrote: »

They were 10 billion over original estimates in the period 1999-2002 so it's possible they've gone another 6 billion over in the last 6 years.

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?Userlang=GA&DocID=688&StartDate=01+January+2007

Who cares?

Any taxpayer that likes our money spent efficiently and prudently?

Irish and Proud

mfitzy wrote: »

Presumably the 16 billion reffered to was the NRA'S total budget for 2000-2008 and more or less "in their opinion" any spending on roads has been a "waste of money"

IMO, I don't think enough money is going into public transport, but I've no time for this nonsense that any money spent on roads is waste. For starters, our road death toll has been generally declining due to the provision of better and safer roads - a greater percentage of fatalities seem to be occurring on our minor roads now. Also IMO, the economic success of the late 1990's owes quite a lot to road projects such as the M50 Northern Cross and other schemes such as the Lucan Road and Navan Road Dual Carriageways.

Now, about the environment - the fact that many of our country roads are slow and twisty renders them IMO, a pollution source for the following reasons:

1) Constant revving up and down of engines (also caused by traffic calming measures and congested roads) uses more fuel thereby emitting more CO2;

2) The constant wear and tear is more evident on many rural roads, thereby making them more costly to maintain as well as being wasteful of resources.

OK, some would argue 'the more roads we build, the more cars'. However, I see that as an attitude problem on the part of society - at the moment, we are like the bad worker who simply blames his/her tools. Large roads are not to blame for congestion - we are!!! We insist in driving cars with just one person in them - how about pooling and using less fuel (and less road space) in the process! We insist in doing many small journeys without making much effort to combine multiple tasking into one journey (for example, why not throw in the weekly shopping with the weekly swimming trip thereby killing two birds with one stone). Also, I generally walk in excess of 2 miles daily, so why can't some people walk to shops which happen to be within a mile, instead to driving - particularly those who live in towns etc.

I have to go now!

BluntGuy

I have to agree with Irish and Proud...

We are only playing catch-up with Europe and the other developed nations when it comes to roads. I think we need and deserve a half-decent road network after all this time.

Now maybe Tarawatch do have a point to make when it comes to M3. Fair enough. I don't criticise them for wanting to protect our heritage, they're perfectly entitled to. But their blanket critcism of all major road schemes is absolutely ridiculous.

crocro

Ste.phen wrote: »

Any taxpayer that likes our money spent efficiently and prudently?

I didn't see anyone voting for efficiency or prudence in the last few elections.

We get what we asked for which was many billions spent on roads. Now when you want to travel between cities by car it will take less time (so long as one of those cities is Dublin). More likely if you want to live in the country and long distance commute its pretty handy but if you want to live in the same city you work in it's no help. Meath will have four motorways but you'll still end up in a queue at the M50 junction.

This is people power.

BluntGuy

Regardless of the Government's general crappiness and baffling incompetence... the main point being made here is that many of roads Tarawatch are criticising are actually necessary.

Perhaps they should've been more specific in their quesitonnaire as to which schemes they deem to be a waste of money rather than that silly sweeping statement.

invincibleirish

BluntGuy wrote: »

Regardless of the Government's general crappiness and baffling incompetence... the main point being made here is that many of roads Tarawatch are criticising are actually necessary.

Perhaps they should've been more specific in their quesitonnaire as to which schemes they deem to be a waste of money rather than that silly sweeping statement.

Tarawatch have as much right to deem whether projects are necessary or not as anyone else on this board or elsewhere for the simple reason that under Fianna Fails watch the idea of a project being 'necessary' had more to do with parish pump politics and/or corruption rather then sound principles of planning.

the N9 has AADTs as low as 6k in parts, yet a whole new shiny Motorway (capacity 55k) is deemed 'necessary' to replace it.

Sections of the N8 & 7 barely reach double digit AADTs in parts yet it was deemed necessary to split the M7 at Portlaoise and we now have 2 brand new motorways criss crossing the Tipp Countryside when one would have done for now and the foreseeable future.

the M3 should never have been built, nevermind the arguments over Tara itself, Meath is the home of sprawl in Ireland, good planning and proper politics were absent from Irish transport planning in the last 11 years. Now out of the boom we still have lots of traffic blackspots but even more empty new motorways opening around the irish countryside whilst far more important projects in both the public transport realm and more worthy road build projects suffer whilst pork barrel projects reach fruition.

have a read of this, its now dated and amusing in parts, but reads better then ever.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2004/dec/04/waste.pollution

Bards

invincibleirish wrote: »

Tarawatch have as much right to deem whether projects are necessary or not as anyone else on this board or elsewhere for the simple reason that under Fianna Fails watch the idea of a project being 'necessary' had more to do with parish pump politics and/or corruption rather then sound principles of planning.

the N9 has AADTs as low as 6k in parts, yet a whole new shiny Motorway (capacity 55k) is deemed 'necessary' to replace it.

Sections of the N8 & 7 barely reach double digit AADTs in parts yet it was deemed necessary to split the M7 at Portlaoise and we now have 2 brand new motorways criss crossing the Tipp Countryside when one would have done for now and the foreseeable future.

the M3 should never have been built, nevermind the arguments over Tara itself, Meath is the home of sprawl in Ireland, good planning and proper politics were absent from Irish transport planning in the last 11 years. Now out of the boom we still have lots of traffic blackspots but even more empty new motorways opening around the irish countryside whilst far more important projects in both the public transport realm and more worthy road build projects suffer whilst pork barrel projects reach fruition.

have a read of this, its now dated and amusing in parts, but reads better then ever.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2004/dec/04/waste.pollution

YES we have heard your arguments re the N9 1000's of time over

all the Motorways in Ireland (Yes all of them) would never be built in other countries due to lack of suffecient traffic in parts. No Point in signalling out the same one every time.

Chris_533976

Although I dont really support the M3, mainly due to double tolling and the fact that they really could have picked a better route, I do support the project because its keeping the environmentalists busy while the rest of the motorway network generally gets built unopposed. Apart from the Galway Outer bypass and possibly New Ross, there is very little complaining going on. Reason? The environmentalists are all in Tara.

DWCommuter

E92 wrote: »

The M3 can't come soon enough for anyone unfortunate enough to have to go through the kind of madness those who travel on it have to suffer *every* day, and like I say the people have spoken and 100% of the TDs in Meath who were democratically elected by the people there want this, so let's move on and get the thing done.

Needless to say I'm not in agreement with Tara Watch or any of those other do gooder types.

Im not in agreement with TARA WATCH, but your quote above sums it up. The very fact that people suffer on this commute is down to the same people that are building the M3. People may want the road, but do they want to hear about the skullduggery, tolls, decimated rail alignment etc.?

For me its not an environmental issue. Its one of blatant robbery of respectable rights and standards. This road was built to facilitate greed. A greed that fuels Fianna Fail and their land owning and builder buddies that have funded the party for donkeys years. When you whizz down this road and think its great, just dwell on the suffering in Navan hospital, the overcrowded and dangerous schools and the fact that if members of your family relied on them, your "get the thing done" attitude may amount to **** all.

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

all the Motorways in Ireland (Yes all of them) would never be built in other countries due to lack of suffecient traffic in parts. No Point in signalling out the same one every time.

I didnt say that none of the motorways should be built, far from it, just the ones that are not needed now or in the future. Unless the M9 corridor experiences massive growth in population and economic activity in the years to come to justify the massive investment in it fair enough but i doubt it will happen. My point was more to do with bad Government policy but i doubt you agree or care, now run along and go complain about me on 051.ie;).

BrianD

E92 wrote: »

At the end of the day, last May the people of Meath had their say in who would represent them.

All 6 TDs elected by the people of Meath are in favour of the M3.

Those against the M3 lost out.

A bit like the yes side in the Lisbon Treaty who are incapable of listening and respecting the will of the people, those against the M3 are equally ignorant to the will of the people.

The M3 can't come soon enough for anyone unfortunate enough to have to go through the kind of madness those who travel on it have to suffer *every* day, and like I say the people have spoken and 100% of the TDs in Meath who were democratically elected by the people there want this, so let's move on and get the thing done.

Needless to say I'm not in agreement with Tara Watch or any of those other do gooder types.

MMmmm... the people have spoken. You seem to feel vindicated. So let's get this straight.

We voted for the TDs who supported the M3 so they reflected the will of the locals. The M3 is therefore vindicated and "democratically elected".

Then the same TDs supported the Lisbon treaty (only 6 TDs opposed Lisbon) and yet "we" voted against the treaty. And all of a sudden they're arogant andaren't listening to the people.

But who was one of the prolific participants in the Lisbon debate. Libertas. They're quite similar to Tarawatch in a way. A private interest group who are questioning the role of authority and how things are done.

So it seems that you are happy to support democratically elected parliamentarians on one issue and then on other issues the role of unelected pressure groups.

Am I right so far?

So it would be rather ignorant of yourself, with all due respect, to suggest that people who support Tarawatch are ignorant and acting contrary to the will of the people. In reality, they are questioning a project that has a lot of issues that are unacceptable to many people including myself, a meath man - just like Libertas questioned the wisdom of the majority of democratically elected TDS in advocating a yes vote. They should be lauded. Nobody, including Tarawatch, opposes the upgrading of the N3 - just the way it's been so badly done. To be frank it flies in the face of democracy, good planning, our heritage and godd government.

Sponge Bob

BrianD wrote: »

So it would be rather ignorant of yourself, with all due respect, to suggest that people who support Tarawatch are ignorant and acting contrary to the will of the people.

We were on about their fundamental inability to count more than anything else

Meath elected Noel Dempsey , nuff said !

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We were on about their fundamental inability to count more than anything else

Meath elected Noel Dempsey , nuff said !

Yes. While this thread has evolved to cover several issues, the main question here relates to the claim made by Tarawatch that the NRA has "overspent" on roads by 16 billion euro between 2000 and 2008. Where did Tarawatch get that figure?

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

Where did Tarawatch get that figure?

Out of their holes

Sadly it detracts hugely from anything useful they may have to say ...which they occasionally do.

and Chris , will you stop asserting by association that Tarawatch and ' associates' are against the Galway Bypass.

The key environmental evidence against it was given by a scientist working for the GOVERNMENT .

Your constant sniping against her is getting very VERY tiring . I know her and have had animated discussions with her about her stance on certain issues but she is basically doing her job.

This is my final warning to you on the matter . Give over willya .

invincibleirish

I believe Tarawatch got the figure from a Village magazine investigative piece from last year (not online seemingly). Before that the issue was raised in and around the 2000-2005 by opposition parties (maybe even the greens). Were there not some dodgy PPP deals and hugely expensive overruns on a variety of road projects like DPT, Southern Section M50, N11? i guess its become a live issue again due to the new found economic prudence this Government now proposes in it's spending.

L1011

BrianD wrote: »

MMmmm... the people have spoken. You seem to feel vindicated. So let's get this straight.

We voted for the TDs who supported the M3 so they reflected the will of the locals. The M3 is therefore vindicated and "democratically elected".

Then the same TDs supported the Lisbon treaty (only 6 TDs opposed Lisbon) and yet "we" voted against the treaty. And all of a sudden they're arogant andaren't listening to the people.

Meath voted those TDs in after the M3 controversy started. We voted in our general election before the Lisbon treaty vote.

Chris_533976

Sponge Bob wrote: »

...

I'm just going to post both quotes so people can make up their own minds about the level of ridiculousness of that little rant.

Although I dont really support the M3, mainly due to double tolling and the fact that they really could have picked a better route, I do support the project because its keeping the environmentalists busy while the rest of the motorway network generally gets built unopposed. Apart from the Galway Outer bypass and possibly New Ross, there is very little complaining going on. Reason? The environmentalists are all in Tara.

and Chris , will you stop asserting by association that Tarawatch and ' associates' are against the Galway Bypass.

The key environmental evidence against it was given by a scientist working for the GOVERNMENT .

Your constant sniping against her is getting very VERY tiring . I know her and have had animated discussions with her about her stance on certain issues but she is basically doing her job.

This is my final warning to you on the matter . Give over willya .

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

Tarawatch have as much right to deem whether projects are necessary or not as anyone else on this board or elsewhere for the simple reason that under Fianna Fails watch the idea of a project being 'necessary' had more to do with parish pump politics and/or corruption rather then sound principles of planning.

the N9 has AADTs as low as 6k in parts, yet a whole new shiny Motorway (capacity 55k) is deemed 'necessary' to replace it.

Sections of the N8 & 7 barely reach double digit AADTs in parts yet it was deemed necessary to split the M7 at Portlaoise and we now have 2 brand new motorways criss crossing the Tipp Countryside when one would have done for now and the foreseeable future.

the M3 should never have been built, nevermind the arguments over Tara itself, Meath is the home of sprawl in Ireland, good planning and proper politics were absent from Irish transport planning in the last 11 years. Now out of the boom we still have lots of traffic blackspots but even more empty new motorways opening around the irish countryside whilst far more important projects in both the public transport realm and more worthy road build projects suffer whilst pork barrel projects reach fruition.

have a read of this, its now dated and amusing in parts, but reads better then ever.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2004/dec/04/waste.pollution

While that article had a point to make, while a lot of it was somewhat overblown...

It made a few good points:

The roads programme is madness. There's no planning behind it - everything leads to Dublin... All five motorways are aimed at the city.

Yes. I will agree with that to an extent. The MIUs do all lead to Dublin. However, the M20, M18 and Dublin-Outer-Orbital should help even out the motorway network.

The famous Red Cow roundabout will become a mass of concrete flyovers.

I actually don't get what point is being made here to be honest. Is the hideous Red Cow roundabout really a momument worth preserving?

"We're individualistic, not strategic in planning, and there's no concern for the long-term consumption of resources. There's one word that describes it all: sprawl."

Correct. Massive open stretches off nothing but identikit houses made of cardboard and plywood without a single shop or playing field combined with senseless dotting of ugly houses across the Irish countryside, miles from any services.

This new economic muscle is a source of pride among the Irish, and the governing Fianna Fáil party has coasted to successive election victories by promising to sustain the boom.

So true... too bad people weren't enlightened enough to see the truth. But that's a discussion for another time...

The article also made several good points about wind power, planning permssion etc...

However, none of that changes my opinion of Tarawatch or the motorway building program. I fully support the construction of the M6, M7 and M8 motorways, and to a lesser extent the M9 motorway. I also am anxious for the N20, N18, N24, N25, N17, N52, N4 and N5 to receive upgrades.

BrianD

MYOB wrote: »

Meath voted those TDs in after the M3 controversy started. We voted in our general election before the Lisbon treaty vote.

Makes no odds ... the poster is selectively claiming the moral right of "democracy". The clear implication of his post is that Tarawatch as a pressure group are unelected and don't reflect the view of people in the county as well as those who we elect. There are plenty of politicians who will support bad or flawed projects either to get elected or it seems to be the only option available (for whatever reason) at the time. All the people wanted was a better road quickly. Bear in mind that a lot of people in Meath and other counties regard professional planners as undemocratic (usually when PP for the dormer bungalow for the son or daughter on top of a hill is refused) but are quite happy to allow elected councillors rezone land and engage in bad planning.

We've been "in Europe" since the 70s, we've been pro-Europe for years as have the majority of mainstream politicians including those in Meath. The timing of Lisbon is irrelevant (it was well on the cards during the election and was an issue). We voted those politicians in to negotiate the treaty on our behalf, they actually got everything what the country wanted and then the poster decides that all of a sudden that they are undemocratic!!

I would not claim that the current M3 is democratically vindicated as the poster suggests.