Hyperthetical question.....?

KamikazeKenny81

I was out drinking last night and it was interesting to see all the old habits kick back in the more drunk I got, it was almost like stepping in a time machine and observing my old character traits.

It got me thinking, how would a Buddha act if he / she got drunk? In theory, if he / she was completely enlightened, would they act exactly the same as if they were sober? (bar limb control )

ntlbell

KamikazeKenny81 wrote: »

I was out drinking last night and it was interesting to see all the old habits kick back in the more drunk I got, it was almost like stepping in a time machine and observing my old character traits.

It got me thinking, how would a Buddha act if he / she got drunk? In theory, if he / she was completely enlightened, would they act exactly the same as if they were sober? (bar limb control )

If I reached enlightment I think the last thing I would want is a drink

I would imagine they would have no control over the drink and would be talking utter bollox trying to find the nearest abra kebabra like the rest of us

MeditationMom

Alcohol removes inhibition. A buddha is already his most ancient self We on the other hand, have an "old self" and an "improved self" that is easily undone by alcohol. When one is one's most ancient self, even "happy drunk people" seem in great suffering.

Then there is being drunk on the divine as in this video of Amma

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGidWtaMD8

and my post on this kind of drunkeness here

Joe1919

Quote from the Plato's Symposium (~ 400 BC ) "this he filled and emptied, and bade the attendant fill it again for Socrates. Observe, my friends, said Alcibiades, that this ingenious trick of mine will have no effect on Socrates, for he can drink any quantity of wine and not be at all nearer being drunk. "

I dont know if this is any help but It was said that the other holy man, Socrates was unaffected by wine.

seamus

Even if someone was without inhibitions in their natural state, alcohol specifically impairs motor function, which interfers with speech and all other motion. It also impairs vision and memory. None of these things could be avoided simply by being enlightened.

So even if Socrates could quaff as much as he liked without become a raging womaniser, he probably had trouble talking to anyone, lifting his jug of wine (or even seeing it) and even remembering that he drank at all.

Though I can't rule out the possibility that someone posseses a very specific set of physical characteristics which allows them to drink vast amounts of alcohol without being too affected. The Michael Phelps of drinking, if you will.

Bagsies not being in a round with him.

Asiaprod

seamus wrote: »

Even if someone was without inhibitions in their natural state, alcohol specifically impairs motor function, which interfers with speech and all other motion. It also impairs vision and memory. None of these things could be avoided simply by being enlightened.

In total agreement, every time i drink too much, I go right back to the beginning again.

Joe1919

There is an idea ( that naturists may agree with but perhaps nutureist not) that as humans , we have two selves, a deep inner (animal?) self that who we fundamently are and an outer self, a self-conscious persona that we acquire or even work on ourselves.

The interesting thing,IMO, about alcohol is that can breakdown the self-consciousness and the mask and the person who you 'try' to be and can reveal the inner self (which can be ugly in some cases). Can we change our inner selves? I think yes, but with difficulty.

In that sense, I think you are very right in saying " I go right back to the beginning again." when one takes alcohol.

KamikazeKenny81

Joe1919 wrote: »

There is an idea ( that naturists may agree with but perhaps nutureist not) that as humans , we have two selves, a deep inner (animal?) self that who we fundamently are and an outer self, a self-conscious persona that we acquire or even work on ourselves.

The interesting thing,IMO, about alcohol is that can breakdown the self-consciousness and the mask and the person who you 'try' to be and can reveal the inner self (which can be ugly in some cases). Can we change our inner selves? I think yes, but with difficulty.

In that sense, I think you are very right in saying " I go right back to the beginning again." when one takes alcohol.

In my case I am sure its more habitual. With mindfulness I can spot the old habits and intercept them, add alcohol which removes the mindfulness and you get the old habits. Some of my habits have been broken the minute they were spoted as they were that undesirable, more recently the habits I have become aware of are longer standing, mainly picked up from my parents as I grew up. For this reason, and because I am only reletively new to Buddhism and meditation, I am not so far along the path of habit breaking.

MeditationMom

There is no question that an enlightened one would be subject to almost the same physical effects of alcohol - loss of coordination, smell, sight, etc, as mentioned above (maybe slower) - just as he or she would go unconscious with anesthesia and could be operated on, but there would not be any change in personality or behavior as in reverting to a more primitive or uninhibited self.

There is no uninhibited self. Even the most deep seated, primitive reactions and reflexes from the reptilian brain are well known and conscious to an enlightened one and are relaxed consciously and instantly before they manifest in behavior. Not suppressed, mind you - that is a different mechanism, easily undone by alcohol.

If you want to practice try to make yourself sneeze - or when you need to sneeze, stop yourself. Or - learn to master your startling reflex. A gun shot goes off right near you and you don't have any reaction at all. Or your toaster. This takes a few decades to master You need a friend or master to keep startling you. Actually this is training that does not guarantee enlightenment, but someone who is enlightened is very familiar with relaxing the most deep seated reflexes. The only way to get enlightened is relaxing the most fundamental and deep seated reflex of all - the one of not wanting to die. If you can do that in meditation - the truth opens up before your very eyes and you are forever free.

willowwan

KamikazeKenny81 wrote: »

I was out drinking last night and it was interesting to see all the old habits kick back in the more drunk I got, it was almost like stepping in a time machine and observing my old character traits.

It got me thinking, how would a Buddha act if he / she got drunk? In theory, if he / she was completely enlightened, would they act exactly the same as if they were sober? (bar limb control )

hi particularly the last few months i have have found that buddhism has been providing me with answers to my questioning mind..so i am no expert...

i have also been 'observing' what happens when i drink, and actually made a personal decision to try and not to drink (because of this)...I feel that i lose the capacity to be rightfully mindful, and am not as aware.

maybe its a time machine...and maybe its traits that you once identified with, and in your straight state you are trying to leave behind, to evolve, but when drunk you are unable to to actively not identify with those traits....
I ..I ...I ...
evolution...impermanence...
spirals...

ummm sorry off the track...

who knows how buddha would act if he got drunk...who knows how any man or woman will react when they take a drug to 'have fun' or switch off their ever present mind...perhaps...

thanks for your question

coffee_cake

MeditationMom wrote:

If you want to practice try to make yourself sneeze - or when you need to sneeze, stop yourself. Or - learn to master your startling reflex. A gun shot goes off right near you and you don't have any reaction at all. Or your toaster. This takes a few decades to master You need a friend or master to keep startling you.

Actually I used to do it with the toaster, just to see if I could make myself not jump. Was funny when a friend tried startling me one day some time later and I didn't jump at all, just said "hi x"

As for alcohol, I don't act differently - slur, walk badly, tunnel vision, yes, but nothing personality-wise. No idea how other people do change so much

MeditationMom

Training by toaster! The universe always provides the master when we need one The toaster training works - it is very difficult. Good for you, Bluewolf! Alcohol-wise, too. Pun intended

By willowwan - who knows how buddha would act if he got drunk...who knows how any man or woman will react when they take a drug to 'have fun' or switch off their ever present mind...perhaps...

Ah, yes - important distinction. You cannot know "how a Buddha will react when drunk" in terms of what he will do. A Buddha is never predictable - drunk or sober. Regular drunks though, are pretty predictable. That's why guys like to get girls drunk

KamikazeKenny81

Ive also decided to lay off the drink, Im meditating every day and dont want anything to negatively effect that.

The "toaster meditation" sounds very interesting! Im not sure im at the point where im ready for such techniques just yet but this is definatly something i will try in the future! I have found that since I have been meditating I have become more aware which has led to me actually becoming more jumpy, I would say this is a very difficult thing to master indeed :rolleyes: