How many singles must we sell to figure in Irish chart?

ciarj

Hey,

Releasing a single in the New Year. We're aiming to get in the top 30. I know it's not much, but will pad out the Bio a little!

Anyone with experience of charting in Ireland? What chart position did you reach? And how many sales were required to get there?

Finally, did you get there via Downloads alone? Or did you have any physical sales?

Cheers!
Ciarj

seamus

David O'Doherty did an experiment to try and get a song to number 27 in the Irish charts. He managed to get number 30 by selling less than 300 copies. That was February 2007, so it shouldn't have changed much since then.

So theoretically you don't need to sell that many to get into the Irish charts. You do have to sell them from certain shops though - singles sold at gigs for example, obviously don't count.

I would imagine your two biggest hurdles are

1. Getting shops to stock the things in the first place
2. Making people aware that it exists.

My name is Mud

You need to produce a CD with a barcode on it, and it must be sold by shops that have sales that count towards charts, usually high street ones. IIRC, some of the alternative music shops' sales do not count for the charts.

Seamus is correct in the numbers. You need approx 400 to get a top 30 position for the week, and gig sales do not count.

No experience with download charts myself, somebody here could enlighten though.

TBH, its great for a bio but means feck all to a respective record company. You will make more money off selling t-shirts/cds at gigs. You wont get a fanbase from charts.

ciarj

400, yeah?? I'm surprised! Thought it would be lower.

Seamus reckons under 300. Anyone else got solid numbers?
Cheers for the input,
Ciarj

rvd156

Your talent alone should get you there man...

But I would say the 300 mark should...

Happy121

The amount of sales you need varies every week, some weeks 200 will get you there and some weeks you need to be closer to 400.

50% of your previous weeks sales figures are brought forward to the next week so if you sell 400 in week one, then you automatically will have 200 brought forward to the second week, thus making it easier to chart for the second week.

To shift some decent numbers you should try to do some 'in-stores' in shops who's sales are relevant to the charts. You can bring extra stock with you to these 'in-stores' and let the shop have the chance of selling a larger volume during your performance. Then take back what has not sold and bring it to the next 'in-store'.

Unless you have a strong fan base selling 200-400 units in a week is hard work, because it ends up being you who has to buy them back otherwise.

Good luck with the single launch.

ciarj

Nice one mate, cheers. Hopefully the Tower contacts will pay off

PaulBrewer

January is considered a prime time as the 'competition' is generally quiet.

You may recall a couple of years ago yer man Mika appeared out of nowhere?
As I recall it was a January release.

A local band charted in the low 30s with sales of 278 as I recall ( 2 to 1 Downloads to Physical sales)

Also to remember the Chart Track boys are well clued into scamming now.

I know in my local shop if there's anything abnormal going on they get a call.

Usually it's the case a local artist has been selling.

I'm not sure even bothering with the chart is worth the effort, expense wise.

Wouldn't a Van, or a PA or whatever be a better investment that a CD, distribution and a Plugger?

JimiTime

PaulBrewer wrote: »

January is considered a prime time as the 'competition' is generally quiet.

Yeah traditionally the easiest time to chart. All the major acts aim for Chrimbo releases. Generally the lesser knowns will release singles then.

A local band charted in the low 30s with sales of 278 as I recall ( 2 to 1 Downloads to Physical sales)

Also to remember the Chart Track boys are well clued into scamming now.

I know in my local shop if there's anything abnormal going on they get a call.

Usually it's the case a local artist has been selling.

What is 'scamming'? You mean people buying their own CD's? What to the chart people do?

I'm not sure even bothering with the chart is worth the effort, expense wise.

Wouldn't a Van, or a PA or whatever be a better investment that a CD, distribution and a Plugger?

Would it? You reckon pubs and clubs around the country will hand out gigs to unknown musicians playing original music? be great if it were so, but not in my experience. I'd say try get a combo of both charting music, playing radio shows and trying to line up gigs on the back of it. They needn't be exclusive of one another, but one without the other can mean the effort is wasted. My 2 cent anyhoo.

ciarj

Paulbrewer:
Interesting point about scamming. Any specifics on measures that Chart-Tracks are employing to prevent people 'buying' chart positions? Particularly as they relate to downloads?

Seems to me that there's no downside to pushing for a chart placing in the 1st week of a release. Costs nothing but time to promote Download single via web-text, email etc.

If you've spent all that money producing the music you may aswell get a tangible 'result' to slip in your press pack, and get it played a couple times on radio.

Cheers again for the input guys!!

Any advice on physical distribution? Getting your CD stocked in chart-tracked stores??

PaulBrewer

ciarj wrote: »

Paulbrewer:
Interesting point about scamming. Any specifics on measures that Chart-Tracks are employing to prevent people 'buying' chart positions? Particularly as they relate to downloads?

Seems to me that there's no downside to pushing for a chart placing in the 1st week of a release. Costs nothing but time to promote Download single via web-text, email etc.

If you've spent all that money producing the music you may aswell get a tangible 'result' to slip in your press pack, and get it played a couple times on radio.

Cheers again for the input guys!!

Any advice on physical distribution? Getting your CD stocked in chart-tracked stores??

No!, my mate owns a chain of regional Chart CD stores so I know they are monitored.

My experience is that a chart placing is of no use to your career unless you're at least top 10ing and getting Radio play.

I've seen loads of bands enter the top 30 for a week (some of whom I've worked with!), but ultimately who cares?


I agree if you can do it without expense, cool, but I personally think investing in your live show will generate more fans than a low chart placing will.
When you have enough of those fans the charts will automatically follow.

With regard to shops, generally the only way nationally is through distribution, which costs.

Also if you were to sell 400 in your local shop it wouldn't have the same 'chartability' as 40 sales in 10 shops. Another measure to reduce scamming apparently.

PaulBrewer

My name is Mud wrote: »

You wont get a fanbase from charts.

Agreed.

PaulBrewer

ciarj wrote: »

Hey,

Releasing a single in the New Year. We're aiming to get in the top 30. I know it's not much, but will pad out the Bio a little!

Anyone with experience of charting in Ireland? What chart position did you reach? And how many sales were required to get there?

Finally, did you get there via Downloads alone? Or did you have any physical sales?

Cheers!
Ciarj

One other point, how good is the recording? I think it's important, certainly from impressing Radio, that it sounds as good as the 'competition'.

ciarj

recording is 90% there. we've invested a lot of time and money so it's pretty good. can give you a pre-master listen. drop me a PM if you're interested

Bluefoam

Best way to get into the top 30 is to write and record a good song...

then...

You will be picked up by a publicist and people will want to buy your record because it is good...

Have I just stated the obvious?

Monkey61

I'd also support the idea that getting a chart position is totally meaningless. In 7 years working at a high street music store, the amount of random Irish bands bringing out singles and then sending their friends in to buy multiple copies is ridiculous. Yes it may chart, but it's not exactly building up a fanbase is it?

At the start, we used to have to ring up Chart track to point it out to them and a few bands got their subsequent releases banned from our store charts because of it. In recent years though, we have just let them get on with it and pointed out to all the sneaky multiple buyers that we knew what they were at as it wasn't really doing anyone any harm what with the singles charts not being as important as they used to be.

Out of all the bands that tried it, not a single one to date has had even moderate success, except on the back of relentless gigging - which hasn't translated into album sales, if they have even got that far.

NeMiSiS

Howaya,

You must also register the single with an ISRC Code or it will not be counted. It's free. If you are regiestering the single with any download sites (Irish ones) there's gonna be an option to enter that code.

http://www.ppiltd.com/index2.htm - get in touch with them for your code/s .

This code as far as I know is embedded onto your single aswell at the mastering stage.. as far as I know. For IMRO tracking etc .

Also some online .. distribution sites do better deals than others . Read the terms and conditions . We were .. mislead at one stage in that regard.

Also - check out http://emubands.com if you wanna register for iTunes, Napster etc I think it's a pretty good deal ..

Anyway go get your ISRC code before you do anything.

All the best,
TK
Jekyl

PaulBrewer

NeMiSiS wrote: »

Howaya,

You must also register the single with an ISRC Code or it will not be counted. It's free. If you are regiestering the single with any download sites (Irish ones) there's gonna be an option to enter that code.

http://www.ppiltd.com/index2.htm - get in touch with them for your code/s .

This code as far as I know is embedded onto your single aswell at the mastering stage.. as far as I know. For IMRO tracking etc .

Also some online .. distribution sites do better deals than others . Read the terms and conditions . We were .. mislead at one stage in that regard.

Also - check out http://emubands.com if you wanna register for iTunes, Napster etc I think it's a pretty good deal ..

Anyway go get your ISRC code before you do anything.

All the best,
TK
Jekyl

Good points !

novarock

I would recommend at the early stages (much like the band i am in) giving away singles at gigs. It gets the music into peoples hands and generally quite a few would be interested in a CD after seeing you live. releasing a single and attempting to chart will only end up costing you money, by the time you have plugged it, moved your gear around the country for gigs etc it all ads up. If you are dead set on it I would do a limited physical run, maybe only even 100 CD's and push the download sales, will save you money.

ciarj

Nemisis: Cheers man, great info!

Novarock: You're spot on with free CDs at gigs. Fair play!! We handed out our studio-recorded demo for free last year. 2-tracks, well recorded and happy to hand them out free. This time, we've spent a lot to get the tracks to album-quality. We have a decent (tho smallish) fanbase now and we're confident they'll be happy to support us by spending a few quid. There comes a point where you have to place a value on your output, stand by it and say, this music is worth something.

Monkey61: Agree 100%. Yes, we'll be pushing hard and asking all friends and family to purchase the single and spread the word. But there's no way I'll be asking anyone to buy more than 1 copy. We want our sales numbers to reflect our support base.

In general lads, I agree with what a lot of you are saying ... that it is better to build a fanbase organically, and to spend your time and energy constructively. I appreciate that the Irish charts mean zipola, particularly for an alt-indie band like ourselves. Damn, I ain't bought a single since I was 14!! However, it is undeniable that achievening a chart placing will do the following:

1. Look good (to the layman) in your bio. I acknowledge that people who know how these things work won't give it much credence.
2. Give the band a sense of achievement and progression
3. Give your fans a sense that you are 'going places'. Give them the feeling that they were part of 'getting you there'.
4. In the process of attempting to chart you will discover whether people are really prepared to part with money for your output.

A top-30 chart placing may not win you a single new fan directly ... but what about indirectly, in terms of the bands increased confidence, satisfaction, momentum. And all for very little in terms of workload.

Really fellas, it's a no-brainer!

PaulBrewer

ciarj wrote: »

Nemisis: Cheers man, great info!

Novarock: You're spot on with free CDs at gigs. Fair play!! We handed out our studio-recorded demo for free last year. 2-tracks, well recorded and happy to hand them out free. This time, we've spent a lot to get the tracks to album-quality. We have a decent (tho smallish) fanbase now and we're confident they'll be happy to support us by spending a few quid. There comes a point where you have to place a value on your output, stand by it and say, this music is worth something.

Monkey61: Agree 100%. Yes, we'll be pushing hard and asking all friends and family to purchase the single and spread the word. But there's no way I'll be asking anyone to buy more than 1 copy. We want our sales numbers to reflect our support base.

In general lads, I agree with what a lot of you are saying ... that it is better to build a fanbase organically, and to spend your time and energy constructively. I appreciate that the Irish charts mean zipola, particularly for an alt-indie band like ourselves. Damn, I ain't bought a single since I was 14!! However, it is undeniable that achievening a chart placing will do the following:

1. Look good (to the layman) in your bio. I acknowledge that people who know how these things work won't give it much credence.
2. Give the band a sense of achievement and progression
3. Give your fans a sense that you are 'going places'. Give them the feeling that they were part of 'getting you there'.
4. In the process of attempting to chart you will discover whether people are really prepared to part with money for your output.

A top-30 chart placing may not win you a single new fan directly ... but what about indirectly, in terms of the bands increased confidence, satisfaction, momentum. And all for very little in terms of workload.

Really fellas, it's a no-brainer!

Fair points.

miju

It's too late at night to be going into specific arguments but OP your better off 95% concentrating on MP3 sales rather than physical sales especially as physical sales may not be counted on that week either (the chart compilation process isn't exactly straight forward)

In answer to your original question I've attached an old weekly sales report that I usually get from Chart Track.

I've purposely removed the song / band / label names as the reports provided by Chart Track are supposed to be confidential.

Pay close attention to the Physical versus Digital sales in the report. Anyways the Sales tab is the important one for answering your question which is obviously the total physical AND digital sales for the single for that week.

Hope that helps

Havermeyer

ciarj wrote: »

In general lads, I agree with what a lot of you are saying ... that it is better to build a fanbase organically, and to spend your time and energy constructively. I appreciate that the Irish charts mean zipola, particularly for an alt-indie band like ourselves. Damn, I ain't bought a single since I was 14!! However, it is undeniable that achievening a chart placing will do the following:

1. Look good (to the layman) in your bio. I acknowledge that people who know how these things work won't give it much credence.
2. Give the band a sense of achievement and progression
3. Give your fans a sense that you are 'going places'. Give them the feeling that they were part of 'getting you there'.
4. In the process of attempting to chart you will discover whether people are really prepared to part with money for your output.

A top-30 chart placing may not win you a single new fan directly ... but what about indirectly, in terms of the bands increased confidence, satisfaction, momentum. And all for very little in terms of workload.

Really fellas, it's a no-brainer!

I disagree. I think releasing your own single can have the opposite effect to what you stated above. A lot of laypeople could take it that a band simply weren't good enough should they not actually be endorsed by a record label. A lot of bands that have been milling around for a while tend to do this after they have been gigging for a few years without any interest from record companies, and releasing your own single isn't that much of a challenge these days anyway so it's not that impressive really.

IMO you'd be much better off promoting yourselves through gigging. Use the money for a van and try get yourselves gigs around the country. Get a myspace account and advertise your music from there. I disagree with one of the above posters who said it's hard to find places to gig with original music. It's not really if you look hard enough and in the right places.

That's my two cents anyway.

ciarj

Spot on Miju! Exactly what I was looking for :-)
For those who can't/won't download the Word attachment above, the chart shows 200 sales would have hit number 30 in the relevant week. Number 20 sold 355, Number 10 sold 776 and number 1 sold 2692. 4 acts made the top 30 on download sales alone.
Cheers again!

Thanks for the input Nummnutts. However in our case the money has already been spent on recording, so no van for us. Won't cost us a penny to try get it in the charts, just a few webtexts to our fanbase :-)

miju

nummnutts wrote: »

Get a myspace account and advertise your music from there.

There are much better ways to get your music out there than myspace/ bebo. Though handy as a small PR avenue to a large extent both of those are a waste of time.

ciarj wrote: »

Spot on Miju! Exactly what I was looking for :-)

no probs at all . It's actually worth bearing in mind that during that week in particular sales were highish. I've seen quite a few times were number 1 has only sold about 500 - 600 sales.

So it's not entirely implausable for the 300 sale your targeting to see a top 20 (and if thats the case you'll want to be prepared to service the various radio stations with your single)

Also, another reason for going digital only. The way the charts are compiled is that Chart Track take a "sample" of data from all Irish stores which essentially means only about 80% of stores nationwides sales data is taken. ALL digital sales are included because of the system in place for report digital sales data.

So if you spent alot of effort / cash on physical sales in indie shops and those shops just so happen to excluded that week then thats all / part of your effort down the drain which for an indie band is unacceptable.

Oh and don't try and scam the system (no matter how tempted) because unless you know how they collate / analyse their data you will not be able to fly under they're radar for anomylous sales and subsequently get completely banned from the charts as many a band have found out over the years.

NeMiSiS

What we did to promote ourselves was;

Gig like absoloute crazy, one day we played 3 festivals in one day.

We hit up big shows in Dublin with fliers and promotional CD's - we gave out 2500 CD's at Metallica, we could have quite easily done with another 10 - 15000 . We gave out about 2000 fliers at Linken Park - this is actually illegal we were not aware at this at the time, but you need to get onto Dublin CC litter warden and tell them your plans if you wish to go down that route (it will cost you). We were stopped by the litter warden, and if you do the same without permission you could be fined.

So find a big band playing that you think have a similar audience to the one you wish to attract and try something like that.

In the same vein you could hit up a big show with fliers CD's etc, and have a show booked the week after in a well known venue. We did this with the Linken Park show, and basically opened the doors of the venue for free - just to promote our music, place was packed.

We organised a big EP launch with our local arts centre, arranged buses etc. Then at the gig we told the crowd our plans to get our single into the download charts - told them the number etc. Art's centres are a gift - if you have a local one get in touch - see here http://www.findarestaurant.ie/menu.asp?menu=218 . The will generally work on a percentage of the door, which is usually negoitiable. They are there to facilitate original Irish music. get a few local bands etc..

Every gig we played/play we hit the streets with fliers, either flogging the download or just advertising the gig.

Promote the hell out of any gig you have - get in touch with local radio stations and local papers in advance of shows - papers need stories -EVERY GIG- . put someone in the band in charge of publicity, has a decent press relase or EPK you can point them towards, make life easy on them. *Copy* *paste* and they have an article. You can setup an EPK on sonic bids .

Have decent high res photos available for magazines or papers. If you know a friend good at photography get them, but better still if you know someone that does it professionallly who can give you a good discount get them, as they will have lights decent flashes etc.

We took our whole image and carried it through art work on bebo,myspace,posters, cd artwork, promotional pictures, stickers, fliers, backdrops, lightshows, etc to help establish.. a brand I suppose, or something recognisable as us.
That being said it's still not perfect, and we don't have the money to get some of the stuff we wish done, but it's all in the pipeline.

There are loads of venues that you can play original music in, you should also consider all ages shows, but be prepared the put in the work to promote them. Get in touch with other bands of a similar style and basically do a gig swap, spend a few hours on myspace researching.

I know we ain't playing similar music, but you could certainly apply some of the idea's .

Hope that helps,

TK
Jekyl

ciarj

Nemisis, you're a superstar!
Thanks for all the advice, and best of luck for the future

Not_A_Guru199

Back in the early 2010s I released an EP. I probably spent circa €15-€20 grand between the studio time, the engineers time and the mixing and mastering, artwork and a bunch of physical copies for distribution to industry folks.

During the daytime I was a director in an engineering and project management consultancy (saving up money to buy the next big piece of machinery or speakers etc) and in the evenings I’d come home and spend 3-4 hours writing and producing music. I attended a whole bunch of masterclass workshops both here and in the UK, where we worked with some of the bigger producers and song writers that had a series of No 1 hits under their belts. They were all from the Spicegirls and Boyzone/Take That era and the K Pop popularity actually was very good for them, as it was essentially tapping back into that hit making formula they had developed over decades in the business.

I had no experience of the music industry as I had only started getting into music and production a few years before that, around 2008/2009. So after lots of research and budgeting for how best to get the music out there, what I did was I researched for the best possible and most reasonably priced publicist in the UK and paid them about a grand or two to roll it out to all the music blogs, various radio stations and industry circulars. It was played a few times on BBC Radio 1, BBC Radio 2 and BBC Radio 6, and each play amounted to performance and publishing royalties of about €150/ play, so I actually got some of the money back in the end. It also lead to me making a connection with a well known DJ who wanted to remix one of the tunes, which was a delightful coincidence.

The EP was called “Hold On” by Mykel, which was the stage name I took(Hold On - EP by Mykel). The amount of people who couldn’t just make the connection to the name Michael was incredible. I’ve heard so many different pronunciations of the name that I’m blue in the face. I also released a video for each song on YouTube and some of the better ones managed to get 100k-200k hits. Here’s the YouTube page if you’ve any interest: just search for this username(mykelofficial) and the EP is called “Hold On”

I think I would suggest staying away from trying to chart in Ireland. Its a waste of money and won’t create any real interest in your music, but rather you’ll spend all your savings and probably only chart between 20th & 30th place, and no one of any value will remember it.

It’s too small a country and you can just as easily release in the UK and get much more value for money as it’s a closed set in Ireland for the most part, whereas in the UK it’s very open.

Back when I was starting out in 2008/09 I met up and collaborated with a guy called Hozier a few times and back then everyone knew he had something special. By all means feel free to share your music and I’ll give you my honest opinions and feedback and I’ll put you in touch with the publicist I used, as they were fantastic, and very reasonably priced too.

All the best with your impending release and let me know if you need any help with anything. Always delighted to help in any way that I can.

Kind regards,

Michael/Mykel