National Strike!

BCD

I would like to propose a three day national strike to protest about the 1% tax levy & the future means testing for medical cards for the over 70's. Don't forget ladies & gentlemen that one day too, we will be also that age!
I would like us to be more militant, like the french & take a stand rather than our normal "Wait & See" attitude. If our pensioners can protest like they did in Dublin let us see what we can achieve!

seamus

You're about a week too late. They've already mostly rolled back on the most destructive parts of those two items.

Imposter

So where do you propose the government makes cuts so that they can manage the countries finances in a somewhat competent manner?

OAP's don't want their medical cards cut, students don't want to pay more fees, workers don't want to pay extra tax (and now some want 3 day's off to protest). So how is the government supposed to find the billions they need? Yes civil service reform would save some money but not the amounts needed - plus it's a longer process that will take longer than 1 year.

sovtek

Imposter wrote: »

So how is the government supposed to find the billions they need? Yes civil service reform would save some money but not the amounts needed - plus it's a longer process that will take longer than 1 year.

They found it in spades when the banks train wrecked our economy.

djpbarry

BCD wrote: »

I would like to propose a three day national strike...

Just what we need to kick-start the economy.

Imposter

sovtek wrote: »

They found it in spades when the banks train wrecked our economy.

Have the government spent any money yet bailing out the banks? My understanding was that that is just a guarantee and more than likely will not cost the goveernment much/anything. The numbers given were worse case scenarios that really aren't expected.

Run_to_da_hills

BCD wrote: »

I would like us to be more militant, like the french & take a stand rather than our normal "Wait & See" attitude.

Good look to your campaign you will be on your own. :eek:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1023/breaking32.htm

sovtek

Imposter wrote: »

Have the government spent any money yet bailing out the banks? My understanding was that that is just a guarantee and more than likely will not cost the goveernment much/anything. The numbers given were worse case scenarios that really aren't expected.

I'm not sure how much it's cost so far but the point is they found the money in second when it came to socializing the wrecklessness and greed of a few but can't when it comes to benefitting society as a whole.

fourfiveone

Right, three days to tell a democratically elected government that's been, to all intents and purposes, in power since 1997 and that was overwhelmingly endorsed in last year's general election that we don't want to play any more.
FF have overseen a property bubble. To some extent or other banks, builders, property owners, investors, first-time buyers (who didn't have to save for a deposit just added the 100% mortgage to the car loan, credit cards and holiday loan), business owners, workers etc were all quite happy to stick the snout in when the good times were rolling. The property market raised so much for so many, no-one cared about basic common sense.
The house price inflation of the last four years was the most basic pyramid scheme but we all kept our mouths shut and trousered cash as much and as quickly as we could.
The issue the government should be held accountable on is the massive squandering of public finances when the good times rolled. Had they used their time and money to secure a reasonable public health, transport and education system, OAP's,children, low income families, students etc would not be nearly as exposed as they are now.
Elections are the time and the place to show anger. If FF are returned in the next Gen Election then we deserve everything we are getting now.

sovtek

djpbarry wrote: »

Just what we need to kick-start the economy.

Our labour is what keeps the economy going so maybe that might be a little incentive to listen to what people want.

SkepticOne

Imposter wrote: »

So where do you propose the government makes cuts so that they can manage the countries finances in a somewhat competent manner?

OAP's don't want their medical cards cut, students don't want to pay more fees, workers don't want to pay extra tax (and now some want 3 day's off to protest). So how is the government supposed to find the billions they need? Yes civil service reform would save some money but not the amounts needed - plus it's a longer process that will take longer than 1 year.

1.65 billion pledged in the recent budget could be saved by cutting "Affordable" housing. I think most people realise at this stage that the schemes don't help first time buyers but are really a bailout of the builders.

Imposter

SkepticOne wrote: »

1.65 billion pledged in the recent budget could be saved by cutting "Affordable" housing. I think most people realise at this stage that the schemes don't help first time buyers but are really a bailout of the builders.

Individual issues could be discussed until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that the governement needs to find some serious money either by increases in taxes or by cuts in the next year (or for the next number of years). So they come up with some unpopular methods of acheiving this (surprise surprise) and everyone starts crying out that they don't want to sacrifice anything.

As mentioned earlier the time to complain is at election time. With regard to that the other parties aren't covering themselves in much glory either. Yes of course they come out against FF's (not the government seeing as the greens are pointscoring with this too) plans but that is just pointscoring. Has anyone seen any alternative suggestions from the other political parties as to how such money can be found?

Cut affordable housing - no doubt there'd be strikes about that too, reform the civil service - cue more strikes. People need to wake up to the realities that cuts need to be made.

asdasd

Our labour is what keeps the economy going so maybe that might be a little incentive to listen to what people want.

YOu havent really answered where the money is going to come from, now have you. Since we are now subsidising all but the top 5% of oldies ( who may well be the top 5% of assset holders given the way assets appreciation works in Ireland) and we also need to subsidise their sons and daughters from the millionaire suburbs at university, and continue to maintain pensions for the civil servants and not tax the "poor" the answer must be to increase tax on the real poor in Ireland - the asset poor in the middle income brackets.

Any worker who goes on strike to become poorer is a bit of an ejeet.

1.65 billion pledged in the recent budget could be saved by cutting "Affordable" housing. I think most people realise at this stage that the schemes don't help first time buyers but are really a bailout of the builders.

yeah, that would work.

SkepticOne

Imposter wrote: »

Cut affordable housing - no doubt there'd be strikes about that too, reform the civil service - cue more strikes. People need to wake up to the realities that cuts need to be made.

No, I think this would be a fairly popular move since most people see through the ploy. In fact there was a small protest against builder bailouts before the budget. This is an area that can be cut without the ordinary person suffering.

If you want to save money there's plenty of areas it can be done. Mike65 suggested switching to generic drugs where possible. A friend of mine, a pharmacist, who works in the area has tried to persuade the powers that be to do this but to no avail.

There are no doubt more cuts that could be made that would have no impact on the general population. The reason the changes aren't made is because of vested interests and weak government.

djpbarry

sovtek wrote: »

I'm not sure how much it's cost so far but the point is they found the money in second when it came to socializing the wrecklessness and greed of a few but can't when it comes to benefitting society as a whole.

But the money hasn't been found, that's the point. €400 billion is a theoretical figure - the entire annual GDP of the country doesn't even come close to it. In fact, the government actually plans to MAKE a significant sum (of the order of billions) from the bank guarantee scheme.

sovtek wrote: »

Our labour is what keeps the economy going so maybe that might be a little incentive to listen to what people want.

So bite our noses to spite our faces?

What do the people want exactly? We're all collectively responsible for the mess we're now in, so how about some constructive thinking on where we go from here, rather than whinging about the fact that some sacrifices have to be made to make up a €15 billion shortfall in the exchequer.

djpbarry

SkepticOne wrote: »

The reason the changes aren't made is because of vested interests and weak government...

...and an apathetic electorate (well, until now anyway).

podge79

Imposter wrote: »

So where do you propose the government makes cuts so that they can manage the countries finances in a somewhat competent manner?

OAP's don't want their medical cards cut, students don't want to pay more fees, workers don't want to pay extra tax (and now some want 3 day's off to protest). So how is the government supposed to find the billions they need? Yes civil service reform would save some money but not the amounts needed - plus it's a longer process that will take longer than 1 year.

axing the dublin metro plan?

irish_bob

fourfiveone wrote: »

Right, three days to tell a democratically elected government that's been, to all intents and purposes, in power since 1997 and that was overwhelmingly endorsed in last year's general election that we don't want to play any more.
FF have overseen a property bubble. To some extent or other banks, builders, property owners, investors, first-time buyers (who didn't have to save for a deposit just added the 100% mortgage to the car loan, credit cards and holiday loan), business owners, workers etc were all quite happy to stick the snout in when the good times were rolling. The property market raised so much for so many, no-one cared about basic common sense.
The house price inflation of the last four years was the most basic pyramid scheme but we all kept our mouths shut and trousered cash as much and as quickly as we could.
The issue the government should be held accountable on is the massive squandering of public finances when the good times rolled. Had they used their time and money to secure a reasonable public health, transport and education system, OAP's,children, low income families, students etc would not be nearly as exposed as they are now.
Elections are the time and the place to show anger. If FF are returned in the next Gen Election then we deserve everything we are getting now.

excellent post , it could have been entitled , when did personal responsobility go the way of the dodo in ireland , no one forced people to take out 350 k mortgages for houses in maynooth or trim or bray

sovtek

irish_bob wrote: »

excellent post , it could have been entitled , when did personal responsobility go the way of the dodo in ireland , no one forced people to take out 350 k mortgages for houses in maynooth or trim or bray

So lets blame the victim instead of the people responsible for regulating this as well as the people actually doing the lending.
One got bailed out and the other is getting shafted.

Tazdedub

A 3 day national strike is not going to help us out of this mess. I am not happy with the budget same as most people but this is what happens in times like this. People have to realise that they are going to have to tighten their belts and give up on things that they took for granted and has been said be more responsible with their money.

Whoever the government do have a lot to answer for as well and shouldnt be let off and this will need to be remembered at the next election. For me the whole budget and the way it was handled both before and after is what is causing the problems. Before the budget the government came out and said yes its going to be a though budget but it will be fair and it will protect the most vunrable in our society and also that their will be no cuts in education and health.

Low and behold the budget comes out and we get a 1/% levy on everybody earning up to 100,000 and 2% after that. Fair enough introducing the levy I had no problem with that, but to stick onto people who are on minimum wage after saying before the budget that it was going to be fair and protect the most vunrable, this was stupid and ill thought out.

Then they hit the medical card for over 70's, fair enough the scheme is unsustainable but still FF where the party in government when it was introduced in 2001 or 2002 and this was ill thought out.

Then there are cuts to education when they said there wouldnt be and a dig out to the developers.

This is why I think the budget has been slated. Now the government have put themselves in a very difficult place and have made themselves look weak and clueless to the people of the country.

sovtek

Tazdedub wrote: »

Then there are cuts to education when they said there wouldnt be and a dig out to the developers.

This is why I think the budget has been slated. Now the government have put themselves in a very difficult place and have made themselves look weak and clueless to the people of the country.

They are not looking weak and clueless. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were serving their class and the rich whilst making everyone else pay for it. That's because that is who they have always served while making some noise to the contrary. They have and will continue to do this.
What happened is that they just misjudged how much they were pissing people off and thinking that the great unwashed was stupid enough not to see it. Hell they weren't that off the mark in thinking they could do it...they have been for the entire time they've been in power.
Now they are having to pull back a bit...but don't worry they will continue to still try to stick it to us whilst making things better for themselves and the people they serve.

asdasd

They are not looking weak and clueless. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were serving their class and the rich whilst making everyone else pay for it. That's because that is who they have always served while making some noise to the contrary. They have and will continue to do this.

A problematic analysis given that taking money from rich old pensioners and students from the millionaire burbs is taking from the ruling class.

( Not that Fianna Fail is really from that class). Yes, yes, developers. should be taxed more. And the top 1%. Preferably of asset holders ( I imagint though that would be, in part, a tax against the aged). Anyway taxing the top 1% of income earners - whilst not a bad idea - would cause them to flee and the people who would really have to pay are piggy in the middle.

whilst making things better for themselves and the people they serve.

Rich old agers?

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

They are not looking weak and clueless. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were serving their class and the rich whilst making everyone else pay for it. That's because that is who they have always served while making some noise to the contrary. They have and will continue to do this.
What happened is that they just misjudged how much they were pissing people off and thinking that the great unwashed was stupid enough not to see it. Hell they weren't that off the mark in thinking they could do it...they have been for the entire time they've been in power.
Now they are having to pull back a bit...but don't worry they will continue to still try to stick it to us whilst making things better for themselves and the people they serve.

I find that dogmatic rant ironic from someone who has told us in other posts here that he is an american living here in Ireland.

Why not concentrate your efforts trying to fix your homeland to suit your dogma before criticising ours? Especially when it is ours that is, it appears, looking after you at the moment albeit not to your fullest satisfaction...

djpbarry

Deleted User wrote: »

I find that dogmatic rant ironic from someone who has told us in other posts here that he is an american living here in Ireland.

:rolleyes:

I didn't realise that boards.ie was "Irish only".

Boggle

imposter wrote:

ndividual issues could be discussed until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that the governement needs to find some serious money either by increases in taxes or by cuts in the next year (or for the next number of years). So they come up with some unpopular methods of acheiving this (surprise surprise) and everyone starts crying out that they don't want to sacrifice anything.

As mentioned earlier the time to complain is at election time. With regard to that the other parties aren't covering themselves in much glory either. Yes of course they come out against FF's (not the government seeing as the greens are pointscoring with this too) plans but that is just pointscoring. Has anyone seen any alternative suggestions from the other political parties as to how such money can be found?

Cut affordable housing - no doubt there'd be strikes about that too, reform the civil service - cue more strikes. People need to wake up to the realities that cuts need to be made.

The only thing affordable housing does is make houses more expensive for everyone. I'll type this slowly so try to keep up, ok?? Builders with unsold stock are using the affordable housing scheme as cashflow while they wait to ride out the storm. This stops them needing to lower prices in order to move stock. I know this because my job has me involved very closely with developers and I see it first hand.You have heard about the gold card for doctors? Well this is the equivalent.

So to reiterate: Our taxpayers money is subsidising builders so that they can keep prices artificially high.

asdasd wrote:

YOu havent really answered where the money is going to come from, now have you. Since we are now subsidising all but the top 5% of oldies ( who may well be the top 5% of assset holders given the way assets appreciation works in Ireland) and we also need to subsidise their sons and daughters from the millionaire suburbs at university, and continue to maintain pensions for the civil servants and not tax the "poor" the answer must be to increase tax on the real poor in Ireland - the asset poor in the middle income brackets.

Any worker who goes on strike to become poorer is a bit of an ejeet.

Okay, firstly those top 5% have probably contributed more tax towards the running of this country than anyone else, providing jobs and security to others. Now that they are old, and earning €700 (which is not a big amount these days), you want them to have to fend for themselves while the knacker who never gave anything back to his country just gets one by right?? Then you lambast that the rich kids get subsidised through university but neglect to mention that average kids will suffer much more as their parents can't afford college??
Who do you expect to cover the cost of your retirement?? Your now broke kids who have had to emigrate to labour on sites for pennies? Free education was hailed as a factor in the REAL boom (you know, the one before the housing boom which created jobs and made this an attractive place to invest??) and now you want it scrapped - great.:rolleyes:

yeah, that would work.
Today 11:56

Why not? Allow house prices to return to natural levels and you won't need "affordable housing" as all housing will be affordable to your average punter. Am I speaking dutch again?? Neen, ik denk niet maar ik heb geen idee.