Call for Luas line to Phoenix Park

Victor

Now, I could understand thsi if they were to put 5,000 homes in the 15 acres (actual area 150+ acres), or even if they ran it all the way to Castleknock (deer aside) in part duplicating the Maynooth line, but not for something that would only attract at most bus fulls of people for part of the day.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1022/1224625076763.html

Call for Luas line to Phoenix Park

Dublin City Council's chief planner says a new cultural institution should be built in the Phoenix Park with a direct Luas transport link.

Dick Gleeson was addressing the Temple Bar Cultural Trust's Culture and the City conference in the National Gallery yesterday.

"If we are getting this light rail network, why not get it to run up to the Phoenix Park to a cultural facility?" he asked.

Mr Gleeson said he was suggesting a spur or cul-de- sac Luas line from the stop at Heuston station on the red line, which runs from Tallaght to Connolly.

BrianD

I am really stunned by these comments. How can a chief planner come out with this stuff?

Perhaps the deer in the park might be customers?

The Park has a Luas station that is relatively close by at Heuston and there is now a feeder bus running from there around the main attractions within the park. This is more than adequate.

gjim

Dick Gleason is a clown of the highest order. He has been proposing outlandish transport "solutions" for Dublin for years - all of which ignore the professional work of the likes of the DTO. His most brilliant idea (which he championed for years) was a "figure of 8 tram line" between the canals to provide the back bone for public transport in Dublin. I am not joking; the guy simply is a moron when it comes to public transport.

If only you could safely ignore idiots like this. Unfortunately he has huge influence in DCC and so is capable of sabotaging or at least sowing doubt and uncertainty with his "contributions".

I mean WFT? Mountains and Mohamed? Build a cultural "facility" (??) away from public transport and the centre of town and then spend 60 million/km building a tram line spur to it? The guy is an absolute moron. Makes you fearful of the caliber of the rest of the DCC planners if this guy can rise to the top.

Ckal

As stupid as it may sound, it's quite common in other cities to have trams to parks. But I think it should only be done when the rest of the city is sorted as regards transport as a Phoenix Park Luas is not needed yet.

dowlingm

I would only countenance it as a reliever for DART/suburban service on the Maynooth line, not as a PP service per se. The problem is that once you get past the bullet straight bit within the park, getting somewhere useful is quite tricky.

Any land acquisition needed in the Castleknock area would be penal (although a far-seeing local authority could probably pick up some more cheaply right about now) but let's face it, light rail is a spur for redevelopment and densification and how much of that is going to happen in Castleknock FFS?

Heroditas

It would be very useful ..... just like the Phoenix Park train station ... oh wait.. :rolleyes:

Stupido

Dick Gleeson is dead right and you guys are missing the point!

The park needs quality (not bus based) public transport. It is the largest enclosed city park in europe, yet the city populace do not get to use it for the principle reason it is too isolated. Try getting from sandymount to farmleagh without a car. More and more access to the park by car itself is being curtailed. People don't use this facility because it is not convenient for them to do so. A luas spur would be brilliant and I would wager it would become busier than C1. It would be very popular with senior citizens as well.

Some of the parks attractions that would use the tram:

1) The zoo (packed these days)
2) the football & cricket matches played every weekend
3) Farmleigh house
4) walkers & ramblers
5) the hospital
6) the Aras
7) Ordnance Survey
8) Gardai HQ
9) New courts service

Dick Gleeson is a planner, and what he was suggesting is sensible city planning. Public transport should be making existing city amenities available to access by the public. A tram line will enhance the park. It would be the perfect catalyst. Some other public amenities that would benefit from tram extensions are

1) Sandymount Strand
2) Dollymount Strand / north bull
3) St Annes park
4) Dublin mountains (cable car from sandyford or cherrywood up)
5) Abbottstown Aquatic centre

and there are many more.......

Think of the bigger picture!

BrianD

The Phoenix Park does not justify a tram line spur when it is already served adequately by public transport. The tram brings you within a short walk of the main gate and the other entrance points are already served by Dublin Bus.

Bus is the solution to internal transport within the park and I'm delighted to see that there is now an eco-friendly shuttle bus service running from the tram stop.

http://www.visitdublin.com/accommodation/detail.aspx?id=271&mid=2261

I would be my view that none of the attractions in the park would justify an expensive tram line and would be a fraction of the traffic that C1 will carry on a daily basis.

Try getting to Sandymount to Farmleigh?

DART from Sandymount > Connolly >Red line tram to parkgate st. > Shuttle bus from Parkgate St. to Farmleigh. Done

Furthermore al the attractions that you list are serviced by public transport either bus or rail.

Sandymount Strand - DART/Bus
Dollymount Strand - Bus (and not far from DART)
St Annes - DARt/Bus
Dublin Mountains - get the 44 and start walking!
Aquatic Centre - could be better served.


The problem with putting a tram into the park is that the park would become one large park and ride. There is already evidence of this happening at the south end of Chesterfield Ave.

Having said that, I wouldn't object to a spur of the red lie going through the park and heading into castleknock but ultimately this would require a pay and display parking regime in the park.

Stupido

you seem to think that dublin is sufficently served by fast, CHEAP, reliable buses that the general populace love to use. Buses are a third level public transport system. Their place is best used to connect mass rapid transit such as metro/rail, then trams. The whole reason the city is looking at trams and metros is the buses don't work on their own, they clog the streets (causing congestion in their own right), are unreliable and nobody likes using them. Everyone hates the buses and the elderly are especially scared to use them because of the jerks and shuddering and anti-social behaviour.

the point about the trams in the park is this

• People LIKE using the trams and ARE using the trams more than anyone expected. They are faster and more comfortable than buses. This is a good thing.
• The park is massive. It is being underused and DCC want to change this. Look at the way large parks are used in other cities. It is not resionable to say people can walk from heuston or the gates for that matter - or wait for a shuttlebus which half the time is never there...
• car access in and through the park is becoming more and more restricted. It will never become a park & ride.
• The tram will, in my opinion, act as the spur for greater usage of the park, which is a fantastic amenity.
• the tram going to castleknock is a logical extension, and perhaps can go on to Abbotstown and the sports campus
• The tram system is faster, which makes long journeys to the park more attractive because it is not so ardious to get there. How long do you think it would take to get the DARt at sandymount, luas at connelly and shuttle bus to farmleigh? If it can't be done in less than 30 mins people won't go there. Same for firhouse or whitehall. What chance do the less well off have using the park if they don't have a fast clean reliable service?
• oh, and the construction costs would be much less as the land is state land and there are no services to speak of to be relocated - which is a huge overhead (esp on C1)

L1011

You'd never get Sandymount to Farmlegh in 30 minutes (your criteria) anyway, so why did you suggest it as an example?

weehamster

As already mentioned the figures don't justify a Luas spur.

So instead, why not build a replica tram line of Dublin old for tourists/occasional commuter. I would love to go on those double deckers trams and I say tourists would too.

IIMII

My tuppence is that when (if!) they were to build a second interconnector out to meet the red Luas line at Fatima/James's hospital to turn the Tallaght Luas into a metro, the should convert the Benburb street section to run through the Phoenix Park to the Phoenix Park station, up the N3 across the M50 and on up to Blanchardstown shopping centre past Clonee terminating at Pace.

You could then change at Pace from Navan to go to Dunboyne, Damastown Ind Est etc or go from Blanch shopping centre to the City Centre.

Crayons but it could see a use for the inner city section of the Luas if the Red line is metrofied from James' to Tallaght, rather then just a tram line between Connolly and Hueston..

And the animals in Zoo would still get to use it!

IIMII

Jayz, I've a lot of if's in that last post!

loyatemu

while I agree that bus is lowest form of public transport (especially in Dublin) its perfectly suited to the park where there's not too much traffic. The existing service could do with a bit more promotion and perhaps integration with the Luas\Train ticket system, but is otherwise fine.

As for Phoenix Park in general - it is terribly underused - much of it is just empty space, great for deer, not much use for people. More people don't go there, because theres nothing to do there. They could easily add a few more attractions to it - an open-air amphitheatre for cultural events, a funfair, a beer-garden (might need to be fairly heavily policed, but they have them in parks in other countries), a boating lake. There'd still be plenty of space for the deer....

[EDIT] actually beer garden + boating lake might be a recipe for disaster :pac:

Stupido

MYOB wrote: »

You'd never get Sandymount to Farmlegh in 30 minutes (your criteria) anyway, so why did you suggest it as an example?

actually you will be able to. The C1 line is planned to be extended to sandymount via south docks / poolbeg (see DDDA development plan). A special transport bridge is being considered across the liffey. It would link into the planned development in poolbeg and could be extended down to sandymount strand. This would get you into heuston in 15mins.

The sandymount example is just to demonstrate that it is difficult to cross the city with the current network.

The option of a station in the PP tunnel has been mooted before. With the extension of the DART network it is a real possibility that services could be run through there, allowing people from inchicore, crumlin and southwest subburbs to access the park without having to go city centre.

The park is just one amenity in the city that should be linked with good transport infrastructure. Hospitals are another. A PP tram could extend to connolly memorial hosp in the Blanch. other lines could link in the likes of beaumont. Metro north, apart from being a commuter line, will link parks (SSG, Albert college park), hospitals (mater), Universities (TCD, DCU), Transport interchanges (Airport, Drumcondra station, Metropark), a fact that seems to be lost on a lot of people in the media. It is not just getting to work and home. Likewise the PP line would link the park as an ammenity to the city and other institutions.

L1011

It takes longer than 15 minutes to get from Connolly to Heuston on the Luas most of the time as it is!

KC61

In fact, based on my observations over regular journeys between Heuston and the city centre, the bus is the fastest option!

BrianD

Stupido wrote: »

you seem to think that dublin is sufficently served by fast, CHEAP, reliable buses that the general populace love to use. Buses are a third level public transport system. Their place is best used to connect mass rapid transit such as metro/rail, then trams. The whole reason the city is looking at trams and metros is the buses don't work on their own, they clog the streets (causing congestion in their own right), are unreliable and nobody likes using them. Everyone hates the buses and the elderly are especially scared to use them because of the jerks and shuddering and anti-social behaviour.

the point about the trams in the park is this

• People LIKE using the trams and ARE using the trams more than anyone expected. They are faster and more comfortable than buses. This is a good thing.
• The park is massive. It is being underused and DCC want to change this. Look at the way large parks are used in other cities. It is not resionable to say people can walk from heuston or the gates for that matter - or wait for a shuttlebus which half the time is never there...
• car access in and through the park is becoming more and more restricted. It will never become a park & ride.
• The tram will, in my opinion, act as the spur for greater usage of the park, which is a fantastic amenity.
• the tram going to castleknock is a logical extension, and perhaps can go on to Abbotstown and the sports campus
• The tram system is faster, which makes long journeys to the park more attractive because it is not so ardious to get there. How long do you think it would take to get the DARt at sandymount, luas at connelly and shuttle bus to farmleigh? If it can't be done in less than 30 mins people won't go there. Same for firhouse or whitehall. What chance do the less well off have using the park if they don't have a fast clean reliable service?
• oh, and the construction costs would be much less as the land is state land and there are no services to speak of to be relocated - which is a huge overhead (esp on C1)

Again, I disagree. You simply can't build tram lines to every conceivable destination. We do need more tram lines in the city and a non-existant cultural centre in the Phoenix Park is hardly a crucial piece of infrastructure. Especially when a tram line runs close to it and it has an internal shuttle service that connects with a tram line.

Also I demonstrated how you would get from Sandymount to the Phoenic Park in three steps and using public transport. What's the problem or do you want everybody to have a tram line to their door step?

I think you are a typical example of people in the city that have a blinkered view of public transport. yes, we have a good way to go yet but Dublin Bus operates a modern fleet of buses. you just need to get out and start using them. Don't believe for a second that the LUAS dosn't have an anti-social element travelling on it.

strassenwolf

IIMII wrote:

My tuppence is that when (if!) they were to build a second interconnector out to meet the red Luas line at Fatima/James's hospital to turn the Tallaght Luas into a metro, the should convert the Benburb street section to run through the Phoenix Park to the Phoenix Park station, up the N3 across the M50 and on up to Blanchardstown shopping centre past Clonee terminating at Pace.

You could then change at Pace from Navan to go to Dunboyne, Damastown Ind Est etc or go from Blanch shopping centre to the City Centre.

Crayons but it could see a use for the inner city section of the Luas if the Red line is metrofied from James' to Tallaght, rather then just a tram line between Connolly and Hueston..

And the animals in Zoo would still get to use it!

IIMII wrote:

Jayz, I've a lot of if's in that last post!

And then some!

It's clear at this stage that the first interconnector, if it's ever built, will be running some considerable way short of its capacity, with (to date) no clear indication of how its massive capacity is ever likely to be properly utilised under the current plan.

I don't wish to cut your imagination down in its prime, but I would caution against giving any thought to a second interconnector.

Cookie_Monster

Stupido wrote: »

Dick Gleeson is dead right and you guys are missing the point!

The park needs quality (not bus based) public transport. It is the largest enclosed city park in europe, yet the city populace do not get to use it for the principle reason it is too isolated. Try getting from sandymount to farmleagh without a car. More and more access to the park by car itself is being curtailed. People don't use this facility because it is not convenient for them to do so. A luas spur would be brilliant and I would wager it would become busier than C1. It would be very popular with senior citizens as well.

Some of the parks attractions that would use the tram:

1) The zoo (packed these days)
2) the football & cricket matches played every weekend
3) Farmleigh house
4) walkers & ramblers
5) the hospital
6) the Aras
7) Ordnance Survey
8) Gardai HQ
9) New courts service

Dick Gleeson is a planner, and what he was suggesting is sensible city planning. Public transport should be making existing city amenities available to access by the public. A tram line will enhance the park. It would be the perfect catalyst. Some other public amenities that would benefit from tram extensions are

1) Sandymount Strand
2) Dollymount Strand / north bull
3) St Annes park
4) Dublin mountains (cable car from sandyford or cherrywood up)
5) Abbottstown Aquatic centre

and there are many more.......

Think of the bigger picture!

Excellent post
(apart from the 2nd number 4) there that is:P

I think it is justified to put a luas through the park, not just terminating in it. The zoo alone is probably busy enough to justity a stop, and conitue out the other side in whatever the preferred direction may be

Metrobest

Currently the only people who have access to the park by foot are the (mostly wealthy) residents who live on its periphery in places like Castleknock and Chapelizod. The rest of the city can only access the park by car. For a park that's championed as a great resource for the whole city, the reality is that Phoenix Park is only accesible to a) the wealthy and b) car drivers. This is neither sustainable nor fair.

This tram extension would work as part of a rethinking of the way the Phoenix Park is used. It needs to become a playground for the whole city - it needs new facilities like cafes, an artificial lake with paddle boats, proper cycle paths and it needs to be car free. But to do all that you need good reliable transport. That rules out the Dublin Bus shuttlebus concept.

The second question is how to put more people within walking distance of this fantastic ammenity. While it seems to be okay for the president and the US ambassador to live there, there seems to be much opposition to allowing Joe Sixpack to live there. There's a reason the Pheonix Park is the 'largest city centre park in Europe'. The parks in continental European cities have a 'good things come in small packages' philosophy. The truth is that much of the Phoenix Park is devoid of people or purpose. A sliver of land parallel to Chesterfield Avenue could be planned as a sustainable new urban community and would give the tram line extension the critical mass it needs. I don't think the deer would mind. They're quite used to cars as it is.

vandermeyde

There are hundreds of apartments lying vacant and unsold in the Castleknock, Phoenix Park Racecourse, Ashtown area so the last thing that area needs is yet more residential building.

The shuttle bus from the Luas at ParkGate St/Hueston runs at 20 minute intervals, I doubt a Luas spur into the park would run at a frequency anything more than that anyway so i think things are ok as they stand from a "getting to the park" perspective. Particularly when the Irish Rail tunnel opens up access to Heuston for Dart users.

Traffic thru the park is a different kettle of fish, I'd rather see cars restricted and let the peak express buses serving Blanch/Carpenterstown/Clonsilla/Dunboyne run down thru it and speed up the trips into town.

donvito99

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Excellent post
(apart from the 2nd number 4) there that is:P

I think it is justified to put a luas through the park, not just terminating in it. The zoo alone is probably busy enough to justity a stop, and conitue out the other side in whatever the preferred direction may be

In BERLIN the zoo has its own massive station. I know that we cannot go around comparing Dublin with Berlin but having an environmentally sound/sensitive(view) tram stop would be a good idea.

And the old style Dublin double decker tram running up the park wouldnt be a bad idea either.

D.L.R.

its a good idea in principle, has an amsterdam touch to it.

but when a city doesn't even have the basic cake yet, the icing will have to wait...

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

Currently the only people who have access to the park by foot are the (mostly wealthy) residents who live on its periphery in places like Castleknock and Chapelizod. The rest of the city can only access the park by car. For a park that's championed as a great resource for the whole city, the reality is that Phoenix Park is only accesible to a) the wealthy and b) car drivers. This is neither sustainable nor fair.

Are we talking about the Phoenix Park in Dublin?? it's nonsense to suggest that it's only enjoyed by wealthy people or those living in Castleknock or Chapelizod. You've got your mega blinkers on again. What about the folks in O'Devaney Gardens? The folks in Arbour hill, Cabra, Ashtown ...

Furthermore, the parkgate st, entrance is serviced by 8 bus routes and the Red Line tram. The NCR entrance has one bus route, the Castleknock entrance has one route as does the Ashtown Gate. Plus the park now has its own environmentally friendly shuttle bus.

Me thinks that your post is unsustainable and it is wrong to suggest that the park can only be enjoyed by the wealthy and car owners. In fact, the geographic size of the park would suggest that using a car would be the optimum form of transport but it is well served by public transport.

This tram extension would work as part of a rethinking of the way the Phoenix Park is used. It needs to become a playground for the whole city - it needs new facilities like cafes, an artificial lake with paddle boats, proper cycle paths and it needs to be car free. But to do all that you need good reliable transport. That rules out the Dublin Bus shuttlebus concept.

The park has all this minus the paddle boats. You are right that a rethinking is needed. Unfortunately, this country has a mindset that the only form of amneity is the local pub. Even if you put put on the best of and the most convenient of public transit you would be hard pressed to increase usage of this facility.

The tram extension would only be convenient if you lived on the line and therefore would not be of any major benefit. As I stated the main entrances are already served by public transport and a tram stop.

The second question is how to put more people within walking distance of this fantastic ammenity. While it seems to be okay for the president and the US ambassador to live there, there seems to be much opposition to allowing Joe Sixpack to live there. There's a reason the Pheonix Park is the 'largest city centre park in Europe'. The parks in continental European cities have a 'good things come in small packages' philosophy. The truth is that much of the Phoenix Park is devoid of people or purpose. A sliver of land parallel to Chesterfield Avenue could be planned as a sustainable new urban community and would give the tram line extension the critical mass it needs. I don't think the deer would mind. They're quite used to cars as it is.

You are correct in saying that the park is probably too big to be used by the people of Dublin. However, I would be against any residential development of this space. The answer to Dublin's sprawl problem is not building on every green space in the city but sensibly increasing building density within the density. It would only end up becoming an exclusive gated community that were against in the first place.

BrianD

donvito99 wrote: »

In BERLIN the zoo has its own massive station. I know that we cannot go around comparing Dublin with Berlin but having an environmentally sound/sensitive(view) tram stop would be a good idea.

And the old style Dublin double decker tram running up the park wouldnt be a bad idea either.

The Berlin zoo is almost in the city centre and has a huge population around it that justifies it. The Tiergarten would be a similar sized park and it relies on car transport within it.

Metrobest

In fact, the geographic size of the park would suggest that using a car would be the optimum form of transport but it is well served by public transport.

You're the one wearing the blinkers, mate. St Stephen's Green is an example of a park well served by public transport - due to its size you can be dropped at the entrance and easily navigate the space on foot. Phoenix Park is far larger and needs different sets of mobility solutions - not cars and infrequent shuttle buses in a city devoid of decent public transport.

You know, in many other cities the parks are tourist magnets, like the Vondelpark in Amsterdam, Englishergarten in Munich and Retiro Park in Madrid. So there's economic benefits that could be milked from a new Phoenix Park, for those of you that are always focused on the costs.

Imagine it.

Phoenix Park could have facilties to hire bikes or rollerblades, lakes with hired row boats, outdoor cafes to sip a mulled wine in winter or a cold beer in summer. New cultural facilties...Museums and outdoor sculptures complementing the existing cultural complex in the surrounding area and especially linking into the wonderful and tragically underused institution that is IMMA. These are things that could all be implemented with good planning. The vision of a new Phoenix Park with multiple uses and functions, however, is only realisable with a good public transport net serving the various spaces inside the park.

So please, stop with this nonsense suggestion that Phoenix Park is 'well served' by public transport.

Rather than dismiss the planner's idea out of hand, think outside the box. His idea deserves attention, not scorn.

noelfirl

Metrobest wrote: »

Phoenix Park could have facilties to hire bikes or rollerblades, lakes with hired row boats, outdoor cafes to sip a mulled wine in winter or a cold beer in summer. New cultural facilties...Museums and outdoor sculptures complementing the existing cultural complex in the surrounding area and especially linking into the wonderful and tragically underused institution that is IMMA. These are things that could all be implemented with good planning. The vision of a new Phoenix Park with multiple uses and functions, however, is only realisable with a good public transport net serving the various spaces inside the park.

Whilst the idea of hired bikes and rollerblades is a good idea, turning it into some primarily tourist driven pastiche of sculptures, museums, cultural theatres and other such stuff is, in my humble opinion, complete bollocks. It is, for the major part, a beautiful wilderness in an immediately urban setting and does not need to be redeveloped into some sort of global cultural centre for the city. Plenty of new developmental space down docklands way (on either side) where that could be done (if it really can be done at this time).

In the immediate term, there are plenty of other places in the city that could do with realistic rail based solutions (namely, the entire northern half bar the DART cachement area) and any Luas line running up the park save to serve Castleknock and Blanchardstown, would be a complete waste of time and money.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

You're the one wearing the blinkers, mate. St Stephen's Green is an example of a park well served by public transport - due to its size you can be dropped at the entrance and easily navigate the space on foot. Phoenix Park is far larger and needs different sets of mobility solutions - not cars and infrequent shuttle buses in a city devoid of decent public transport.

So please, stop with this nonsense suggestion that Phoenix Park is 'well served' by public transport.

Face the facts:
It is served almost a dozen or so bus routes, it has a tram stop 10 minute walk from Parkgate St entrance, a national train station is the same distance, there is a suburban rail station at Ashtown. Plus it has an internal eco-friendly shuttle service linking in with external transport services. Come on get your blinkers off for once and for all! You seem to think the only form of public transport is a tram or metro.


It is absolutely ridiculous to compare St. Stephens Green with the Phoenix Park. They are chalk and cheese. The fact of the matter is that the Phoenix Park is massive and if you want the 'freedom of the park' then personal transport is the best option. If you want to reach specific destinations e.g. the zoo or the visitor centre you can do so by public transport.

You know, in many other cities the parks are tourist magnets, like the Vondelpark in Amsterdam, Englishergarten in Munich and Retiro Park in Madrid. So there's economic benefits that could be milked from a new Phoenix Park, for those of you that are always focused on the costs.

eh, the Phoenix Park is also a tourist magnet. I suggest you might want to have a look in some day. None of the parks that you detail are comparable to the Phoenix Park. They are all more compact and in the midst of densely populated areas. Furtmermore, the objective of most parks is to provide public amenities and outdoor areas not an economic one - to give city folk a bit of countryside as it were. If we wanted economic benefits we can build on it.



Imagine it.

Phoenix Park could have facilties to hire bikes or rollerblades,

It does, just inside the parkgate st entrance and a few minutes walk from the TRAM and BUSES and the RAILWAY station.

lakes with hired row boats

hardly a major draw but nice if you have the water.

outdoor cafes to sip a mulled wine in winter or a cold beer in summer.

Unfortunately, Irish people have demonstrated that they are unable to enjoy alcohol in moderation like our continental friends. Best leave the booze out of it.

Rather than dismiss the planner's idea out of hand, think outside the box. His idea deserves attention, not scorn.

He is not thinking outside the box. There are dozens of other public transit projects that are more worthy than this. It is just silly to propose a tram link to a non existent cultural centre. Not only is it non-existent but there are no aspirations by the people or the city of Dublin to build a "cultural institution" in the park. People want to enjoy it as a public space.

The real problem as why the Phoenix Park may appear under utilised by Dubliners is not a lack of public transport but really that they don't have the drive or imagination to use it.

BostonB

At peak time, road traffic is a none runner in the park. Its choked with traffic at peak.

There already is a train line throught the park. Theres a tunnel underneath it.

Park is crying out for a decent cafe.

BrianD

BostonB wrote: »

At peak time, road traffic is a none runner in the park. Its choked with traffic at peak.

There already is a train line throught the park. Theres a tunnel underneath it.

Park is crying out for a decent cafe.

There is a train line <i>under</i> the park. I don't believe that it is a realistic option to put a station in the park at this point in time.

As for cafes, the xoo has one and there's the band stand one. Perhaps the OPW could consider issuing franchises for Coffee Angel type operations that don't require permanent buildings. The only problem is that food concessions invariable create a litter problem.

Metrobest

Whilst the idea of hired bikes and rollerblades is a good idea, turning it into some primarily tourist driven pastiche of sculptures, museums, cultural theatres and other such stuff is, in my humble opinion, complete bollocks. It is, for the major part, a beautiful wilderness in an immediately urban setting and does not need to be redeveloped into some sort of global cultural centre for the city.

Recent economic events have shown that Ireland is inextricably linked to the global economy. Future economic growth is dependent on infrastructure and especially on Dublin being able to compete with other European cities in the global economy. Dublin is falling behind. The Phoenix Park is not only a cultural and recreational resource, it has a role as an economic resource in the livability of the city. In its present uses the park is not reaching its potential.

a beautiful wilderness in an immediately urban setting

...is not sustainable.
Drive 30km outside Dublin and along with acres and acres of semi detached housing there's also field after field of 'wilderness'. Phoenix Park is not some safari park in Africa, it's an urban park and has to have some dialogue with the urban periphery that surrounds it. That's why it needs the new cultural institutions, cafes, rollerblade paths, tram lines and even new urban communities.

None of the parks that you detail are comparable to the Phoenix Park.

All are comparable - Vondelpark further from Amsterdam's central station that Phoenix Park is from Heuston. Retiro is set near Madrid's cultural institutions and has all of the above facilities I mentioned. Englischergarten has the delicious mulled wine outdoor cafes that I can imagine families of Dubliners flocking to in Spring and Autumn.

The real problem as why the Phoenix Park may appear under utilised by Dubliners is not a lack of public transport but really that they don't have the drive or imagination to use it.

They have the 'drive' to use it.. in their cars
There's only so much imagination one can derive from a zoo, some GAA fields, a lot grass, and a house for a president.

BostonB

BrianD wrote: »

There is a train line <i>under</i> the park. I don't believe that it is a realistic option to put a station in the park at this point in time.

Seems more practical than running a new spur off the luas. There obvously isn't the money now. TBH I not that fond of the idea of bring more people into it. Its fine as it is. We use it all the time.

BrianD wrote: »

As for cafes, the xoo has one and there's the band stand one. Perhaps the OPW could consider issuing franchises for Coffee Angel type operations that don't require permanent buildings. The only problem is that food concessions invariable create a litter problem.

They are all pretty poor. I said it needs a decent one. Bit expensive to pay into the zoo to get a coffee and use the loo. The one at the band stand is tiny, and not that well maintained IMO.

lostexpectation

the guy was only throwing things out there like people do at those conferences

strassenwolf

lostexpectation wrote: »

the guy was only throwing things out there like people do at those conferences

Of course, that's true. But what is worrying here is that he doesn't seem to have grasped the priorities for the city for which he works.

Earlier this year, a LUAS line to Rathfarnham, via Harold's Cross, was deemed unsuitable for development, because it would have lost 2 million euro a year in running costs. This is despite the fact that it would have been built through several parts of the DCC area which have densities which, in many other European cities, would justify a metro line. Munich, for example.

Yet we still wait for an analysis of what the absurd MetroWest would lose, even though it is being built largely through fields, outside of DCC's area?

Dublin's aims for development of public transport seem to tend towards the path of least resistance. We'll build the line to the Point, because there's nobody living there yet - so no complaints are likely. We'll build the line to Cherrywood, because nobody's living there yet, so no complaints are likely. We'll build the line to CityWest, because nobody's living there yet... etc.,etc.

And now we have this. A bloke in the City Council Offices proposing that a cultural centre will be built in the Park, and we'll buld a LUAS line to it.

I think he's probably on the right track, for the future. Unfortunately, for him, what Dublin needs is for this guy to do his current job, now.

murphaph

BrianD wrote: »

The Berlin zoo is almost in the city centre and has a huge population around it that justifies it. The Tiergarten would be a similar sized park and it relies on car transport within it.

....the main reason Zoo station is so large is that it developed into the defacto Hauptbahnhof for the western allied sectors once the other main long distance terminii were cut off from West Berlin.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

Recent economic events have shown that Ireland is inextricably linked to the global economy. Future economic growth is dependent on infrastructure and especially on Dublin being able to compete with other European cities in the global economy. Dublin is falling behind. The Phoenix Park is not only a cultural and recreational resource, it has a role as an economic resource in the livability of the city. In its present uses the park is not reaching its potential.

Dublin is not falling behind because it doesn't have a 2km tram spur to a public park. We definitely need more infrastructure in other areas of the city. Please do elaborate on the huge economic miracles that are the public parks in other cities.

...is not sustainable.
Drive 30km outside Dublin and along with acres and acres of semi detached housing there's also field after field of 'wilderness'. Phoenix Park is not some safari park in Africa, it's an urban park and has to have some dialogue with the urban periphery that surrounds it. That's why it needs the new cultural institutions, cafes, rollerblade paths, tram lines and even new urban communities.

You're not really making a point here. It is either a park or not a park? Which do you want? What is a public park? It is a large area of land preserved in its natural state as public property; a piece of open land for recreational use in an urban area; A tract of ground kept in its natural state, about or adjacent to a residence, as for the preservation of game, for walking, riding, or the like; A piece of ground, in or near a city or town, enclosed and kept for ornament and recreation; as, Hyde Park in London; Central Park in New York.

All are comparable - Vondelpark further from Amsterdam's central station that Phoenix Park is from Heuston. Retiro is set near Madrid's cultural institutions and has all of the above facilities I mentioned. Englischergarten has the delicious mulled wine outdoor cafes that I can imagine families of Dubliners flocking to in Spring and Autumn.

They are certainly not comparable. All of the european parks that you refer to are far closer to the central business district of those cities than the phoenix park is in relative terms. It just so happens that these parks have cultural institutions near by. Similar to Central Park in NY where there are a number of museums adjacent to the park. It's a coincidence of location or the local authority managed to get some cheap land.

The Englischergarten example you give. I am as familiar with Munich as you seem to be with Dublin. But having a quick look at Google maps indicates that most of the U Bahn stations are actually further away from this park than the tram service that services the Phoenix Park. The Parkgate St. entrance is 600m from the nearest tram/bus/rail interchange at Heuston Station. The majority of the "non parkland" facilities e.g. Zoo, playing fields, peoples park, bandstand cafe are within 1200m of the Parkgate St entrance. So this disproves the hypothesis that public transport would improve usage of the park.

The reality of the situation is that the parks you refer to are in densely populated cities and are closer to the central business district in relative terms than the Phoenix Park is to Dublin's CBD. Furthermore, within 2 km of Dublin's city centre we have low rise two story type housing with BACK GARDENS. A "luxury" that is not always enjoyed by the citizens of large cities elsewhere in Europe. Hence, flocking to the park may not be something high on the priorities of Dublin dwellers.

They have the 'drive' to use it.. in their cars

No they don't as you well know. With a dozen bus routes, a tram line and a rail head serving the park, Dubliners have either the option to drive or use public transport. The park tram is a bit like the arguement for an "airport metro". The question iswho will really use it? For a family of 2 adults and two children with all their bits and bobs, car transport is actually sensible and economical form of transport.

There's only so much imagination one can derive from a zoo, some GAA fields, a lot grass, and a house for a president.

Well that's what public parks are all about! I can't see how whizzing around on a pair of rollerblades/paddleboat with a latte in one hand and a glass of wine in the other will improve either the amenity of the Phoenix Park or bring us back from the brink of the recession. In fact much of this is what people are trying to get away from when they visit any park.

As it happens, I pass through the park most Sundays all year round and there is absolutely no doubt that Dubliners are enjoying it. There is also a growing number of events taking place in the park such as the Bloom festival, various runs, cycles etc. There is no doubt that Dubliners are making use of the park as it is.