IPSC Pistol World shoot in Bali

packas

All,

A group of IPSC pistol shooters representing the IPSA region are currently on a flight to Bali to take part in the 15th IPSC pistol world shoot. I'd like to wish them well in the competition. Some stats:-

No. of stages= 36. They will shoot 6 stages per day over 6 days
No. of rounds= 551
No. of paper targets= 218
No. of steel targets (poppers & plates)= 115

I'm hoping to get daily reports back from Bali. So please keep an eye on www.ipscireland.org where I will post the reports.

Also check out the World shoot website:-

http://www.worldshootbali.com/main.htm

packas

All,

The Irish have started shooting the match (12 of 36 stages shot so far). Interim results available here (The Irish are spread across two squads).

http://www.xtremeshooting.com.br/mss/squad.php?Matchnum=1&Squad=9
http://www.xtremeshooting.com.br/mss/squad.php?Matchnum=1&Squad=33

packas

All,

The match in Bali is concluded. No suprise that Eric Grauffel retains the Open division crown for 4th time in a row. Travis Tomasie (USA) took gold in Standard and once again Adam Tyc (CZE) took gold in production. It seems that 3 of the top 5 shooters in prodcution shot with the Sp-01 Shadow.


Congrats to the Irish squad. Andrew Pedlow shot best of the Irish in Standard Divsion earning 64.95% (116 out of 309 in that division).

full results here:-
http://www.worldshootbali.com/main.htm

It seems the temperature & humidity along with the crushed corral range surface took it's toll on all shooters & theior equipment.

Double-Alpha

Yes, a big congrats to all the Irish Team, but Packas, I think you have yet again over looked Paul Smith again as you did with the UK Open when he won the Senior Standard Division. It was I that discovered that he had won and also won Irelands first Presidents Medal.

Paul is placed as 34th in his Standard Senior division of the World Shoot in Indonesia.

Please post all placings in order of merit and read the scores of all shooters in their Division and Category next time.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

packas

Double-Alpha wrote: »

Yes, a big congrats to all the Irish Team, but Packas, I think you have yet again over looked Paul Smith again as you did with the UK Open when he won the Senior Standard Division. It was I that discovered that he had won and also won Irelands first Presidents Medal.

Paul is placed as 34th in his Standard Senior division of the World Shoot in Indonesia.

Please post all placings in order of merit and read the scores of all shooters in their Division and Category next time.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sorry I forgot Paul is mentioned in Standard (193rd) & Standard Senior (34th). Thank goodness you're always ready to reply correcting my mistakes DA.

I think you're mistaken by stating I overlooked Paul on winning the first Presidents medal for Ireland. I publicised that quite well on the IPSA website http://www.ipscireland.org/paul_smith_wins_presidents_medal.html & in The Irish Shooters Digest http://www.ipscireland.org/files/isd_august_sti_open__paul_smith.pdf

You're a hard woman to please :D:D



regards,
Pat.

Bananaman

Well done to all who attended - hundreds of competitors - it is worth noting that there are not only senior but also super senior, lady and junior categories in each division. All of which were very well attended.
There are also modified and revolver divisions.

We may not currently have any people in Ireland compete in those divisions or categories but I'm sure that will change.

Saul Kirsh has been doing daily reports on www.doublealpha.biz throughout the match. He himself took 7th in Open Division and won his shootoff.
Also Angus Hobdell won his shoot off

I suppose everyone knew what it would be like - I was in Bali in '02 - beautiful place - equatorial climate - everything is either crushed coral sand (the fabled white beaches) or volcanic sand (The fabled black beaches) unfortunately herself was not into the idea of me shooting for half of this years holiday.

Rock on the European championships in Serbia in 2010.

The next world shoot has been scheduled for Greece in 2011.

Found this out there aswell:


http://www.shred2.net/~shred/gallery/WorldShootBali/CIMG9661

B'Man

Double-Alpha

Good afternoon, I’m on my lunch break, so very quickly thanks Packas, yes, I am very hard to please. No smart remarks please.;)

To continue, let us not forget, that the Seniors are shooting along side the younger shooters but are shooting for score and position in the Senior Category only

B/man, don’t thank me too soon, you obviously don’t know any of the Team Members of which 2 are in 2 separate Senior Categories of Standard & Production or are you just referring to Modified & Revolver Divisions, hard to know really

B/man quote, “We may not currently have any people in Ireland compete in those divisions or categories but I'm sure that will change”


There are not just hundreds of competitors but over one thousand competitors in this World Shoot, yes, over 1,000 competitors. :eek::eek: Think about it, the organising and stats. The mind boggles.

Not everyone knew what the range would be like as it was totally extended and rebuilt with hundreds of truck loads of earth, clay and seemingly topped off with, what we are now told, as badly crushed coral etc according to reports on the GV. Some of the top shooters were even asking what the surface was like and conditions etc just days before the event started, so B/man, I’d love to see your holiday snaps of the range in 2002 seeing as you obviously knew well before them all!! What was your range like back in 2002 or did it even exist as it is today. Maybe for the next big competition we can put out a request for old holiday photos so our shooters can study them, hmmm, I think not, regardless of the fabled legends

Gentlemen, I also forgot to mention our Martin Byrne in Production Senior. He also finished in the 30’s position in his PRODUCTION SENIOR group in the World Shoot in Indonesia

While I’m at it, just a quick query, my husband told me that in the last shoot in Harbour House, Paul Smith also came third overall and also finished first in Standard Senior but only got a prize for Standard Senior and the fourth shooter overall was then given the third prize! Was he not also entitled to the overall third prize? What happened there? Anyone know?

Last question please. what happened to Brian Mcevelly??

Bananaman

DA - I knew we had senior shooters in Standard and Production - I just meant that even though we curretly only have Regular and Senior - Open, Standard and Production competitors in Ireland that there is also : Ladies, Juniors and Super Seniors and also Modified and Revolver. Plenty of room for expansion.

I think everyone gave a good accounting of themselves and will no doubt be very happy with their shooting. would have gone myself if I could have.

We have a large number of Senior competitiors in Ireland (Open, Standard and Production) which makes it a quite competitive section of the sport.

As we all know there is no way the gardai will license a junior so probably no junior competitors for the forseeable future.

It is quite expensive to get into (you would not see much change from 1000 euro for kit AFTER you have a firearm) and quite difficult to get into also (there seems ot be quite a backlog on people getting assessments for competition licenses) - I suppose that explains the fact that we have such a large % of seniors.

Lady shooters are thin on the ground at the moment but that seems to be true of all shooting sports.

I was not on a range in 2002 - I was only on holidays - In fact I had never even shot at that stage - having only started in 2006. What I meant is that we all know what the weather was likely to be with the equatorial climate.
It was always gonna be hot and sticky which will sap your stength like nothing else. Hydration would have been a major facotr for everyone.
There was also the dreaded Bali Belly to contend with.

The shooters had a relatively easy time of it shooting for 1/2 days 6 times - the ROs on the other hand were on the range for something like 8 full days.
Woulda been very tough. "Timer Burn" may have been a factor :-)

As to the range surface - well nobody was gonna know what that would be like til they got there. Same as any other match. I've shot on Grass, Tarmac Concrete, Muck, Sand, dust, crushed stone, etc. People don't have a World Shoot capable range handy in case - it was always going to be build for purpose. I've seen lads skin their arms on the finest of sand because they caught a piece of brass. Assume the worst and you will never be disappointed :-)

I don't have the HH results to hand but I do remember Paul getting a prize - he's becoming a bit of a regular on the podium.

B'Man

Double-Alpha

Well, B/man, you have done it again. Lots of bla bla bla and no answers to the question at hand, gone off topic again as usual.

BTW, I was talking to one of the Irish IPSA shooters over the weekend and he described the conditions, range and his account of their day in a completely different setting to yours or was your description just a figment of your imagination

Concerning the shooters and the ROs, who had it worst? The ROs were under purpose built shades, proper seating, rotated on regular intervals, supplied with ice cold water etc on a regular basis. 3 ROs to each stage and a hand full of young soldiers to patch and pick cases. The shooters, on the other hand, although they only shot for half a day for 6 days, had it pretty hard. The story as I was told.

First day, up at 4.30 am in the morning, shower and go down for brekkie by 5.00 am, back to room grab gear and be ready and on the coach to the range by 5.40 am, arrive at range by 6.40 am get ammo from police tent and go to first stage of the day to commence shooting by 7.00 am at the latest. Temperature at 7 am was about in the mid 20’s and rising fast with very high humidity. At each stage there was not enough seating so some of the lads had to share their seats with others or do without. The shade was pretty good in the mid morning to late noon, before and after the sun shone under the canopies with temps at around 37c with very high humidity. Drink water every 2 mins to keep hydrated, go through approx 8lts of water very quickly, try and find a stall to buy more in between stages. Reapply more sun block only for it to run down into eyes and sting the living day lights out of you, can not see targets. This I’m told continues up to about 1.30 – 2.00 pm when they finish. Wait for coach back to hotels, arrive at hotel at approx 3 pm, stand in shower for approx half an hour to cool down, 5 pm change and go for lunch / dinner / tea whatever, 7 pm back to hotel to clean gear and equipment for next day, bedtime and a welcome sight of the pillow, crash-out until next day which starts late at 9.15 am and everything else starts again except at later times.

He told me that the hotel was a 4 star plus, with all the amenities including 2 swimming pools but they only got to use it on the 2nd last day they were there, too much to do in preparation for the coming days and during the competition and no time was ever wasted.

Lesson learned here but will it be remembered, never try and second guess what people go through or the conditions that they have endured, try asking them for first hand information next time and save the embarrassment of making a total **** up of it. Please excuse my bad language and bluntness but sometimes I just so annoyed with silly responses and assumptions.

Better tell Marge to buy some DeCaf instead. :D

bunny shooter

fight, fight

Double-Alpha

Certainly not a fight, Mr Bunny Shooter, just a matter of putting the record straight for once. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Bananaman

O'Dear,

I have no intention of robbing this thread to do an "I said, you said" and quote each other until we no longer know what we were talking about.

I am not going to go toe to toe with you DA on this. I would suggest that you come to a match - formal or informal. If you have not yet recieved any training in how to be safe on a pistol range, specifically during a practical pistol match, contact your club or IPSA and arrange the training. You will be more than welcome. If you need more info and do not want to do this in public feel free to PM me and I will make sure you gte hooked up with the correct people.

I've shot in loads of informal (club) matches in various clubs, a few Level Is (provincial matches), ~10 Level IIs (national matches) and 4 Level IIIs (International Matches). As yet I have gone no further. A number of people from Ireland have attended some Level IV (Continental Matches) and now a Level V (World Match).

I hope to attend the European Championships in 2010 (Level IV) and the world shoot in Greece in 2011 (Level V) but will need to qualify as there are very limited spots for Ireland as we have so few shooters here.

The "Practical" in Practical shooting, contrary to what some people would have you believe, means deciding on the day based on the challenge you are presented with and the conditions in which you find yourself, how best to complete a challenge.
All I was trying to do was point that out to the people, on this board, who may not know what this thread was about.

Suffice it to say that this was the IPSC WORLD SHOOT - what that means is - this was the F1 Grand Prix, of pistol shooting.

That means that you go there expecting there to be extreme challenges presented by the holders. It also means you put up with whatever mother nature throws at you. You may not perform your best but you are "practical" about it.

Probably due to the fact that it was in Bali and was so prohibitively expensive in terms of cost and time off work required (someone in IPSA sent around some initial estimates at ~2500 Euro or something like that for travel/accom/match entry) there was not much demand for places so there was no need to qualify this time round. That will not be the case next time with the match being in Greece.
There are no sponsored shooters in Ireland and there is no grant aid or subsidies so 100% of the cost of shooting in these competitions must come from the shooters own pocket.
(I do not have the actual mails to hand so it may have been even more - I'm sure the people who were there will clarify)

My own experience of Bali (October 2002 - yes I was there when the bombings occurred - I was actually in that pub earlier that night) was that is was extremely hot and humid - I has just spent two months in Thailand so was "acclimatised" at that stage but still found it good and sticky.
That is all I was saying.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Suffice it to say that this was the IPSC WORLD SHOOT - what that means is - this was the F1 Grand Prix, of pistol shooting.

*cough*ofIPSCpistolshootingyoumean*cough*

There are no sponsored shooters in Ireland and there is no grant aid or subsidies

Bar the carding grant. And there are a few sponsored shooters.

Bananaman

*cough*ofIPSCpistolshootingyoumean*cough*

Sure, it's subjective and I am biased, but thirty six seperate events shot over six consecutive half days, with no opportunity to practice, sounds pretty much like the Grand Prix event in Pistol Shooting to me.

Correction: There are no sponsored or subsidised IPSC shooters in Ireland (as far as I know)

B'Man

Sparks

Depends on your viewpoint B'man. Sheer number of matches held isn't what would give the title in my honest opinion.

Bananaman

Sure - it's all in the eye of the beholder.

However, not matches - events - you have 36 seperate events, in one match - never seen before or seen again - you will have some sense of the skills that may be required - prone, weak hand, strong hand, accuracy, speed, distance, etc.

You can practice your skills alright and to be competitive they all need to at their absolute best, but you cannot practice the actual challenge - you get one go at it - during the competition and that's it.

Not unlike playing a new championship golf course, which you have not played before, every day for 6 days. Heady stuff but that there is the attraction. (In my opinion)

I cannot wait for an opportunity to attend one of those. 3 years of training with potentially the European Championships the year before (if I qualify) to cut my teeth on the endurance under pressure.

B'Man

Sparks

The novelty aspect is interesting B'man - but if every competition has a different course of fire entirely, how can you possibly compare shooters from different competitions, or even track one shooter's performance over a season? For example, I know Ray Kane's 569 from this Sunday would have handily beaten my 549 from a fortnight ago (and by how much, and with a lot of data on means and standard deviations, so I can tell if it's just a lack of training on my part or if it's actual technical deficiencies, and there's more information in there if I go digging). So I know where I am performance-wise, and I can also compare those to the 597-600 scores that win the international matches so I know how far I have to go. How do you do that in IPSC?

packas

Sparks wrote: »

*cough*ofIPSCpistolshootingyoumean*cough*
:pBar the carding grant. And there are a few sponsored shooters.

Accuracy, Power & Speed are the factors in IPSC. Sounds like F1 to me :D:D:D

packas

Sparks wrote: »

The novelty aspect is interesting B'man - but if every competition has a different course of fire entirely, how can you possibly compare shooters from different competitions, or even track one shooter's performance over a season? For example, I know Ray Kane's 569 from this Sunday would have handily beaten my 549 from a fortnight ago (and by how much, and with a lot of data on means and standard deviations, so I can tell if it's just a lack of training on my part or if it's actual technical deficiencies, and there's more information in there if I go digging). So I know where I am performance-wise, and I can also compare those to the 597-600 scores that win the international matches so I know how far I have to go. How do you do that in IPSC?

This is my understanding of the system ( Note to more experienced IPSC officials please correct me if I'm wrong)
There are classifier stages that test specific skills of an IPSC shooter. For example see attached. There are many of these. Most international matches have at least one of these classifier stages. After a set number of matches you can submit your results for these stages & you get an international classification. With that you can compare your skill level with other shooters internationally.

Sparks

packas wrote: »

Accuracy, Power & Speed are the factors in IPSC. Sounds like F1 to me :D:D:D

And the gun you buy directly affects the score you get at the end of the day, so there's that similarity as well...

Sparks

packas wrote: »

This is my understanding of the system ( Note to more experienced IPSC officials please correct me if I'm wrong)
There are classifier stages that test specific skills of an IPSC shooter. For example see attached. There are many of these. Most international matches have at least one of these classifier stages. After a set number of matches you can submit your results for these stages & you get an international classification. With that you can compare your skill level with other shooters internationally.

That would be more sensible from the sport point of view - but do you win the prizes based on those classifier stages, or determine the world champion, or the world rankings based on them?

Dr_Teeth

Double-Alpha wrote: »

While I’m at it, just a quick query, my husband told me that in the last shoot in Harbour House, Paul Smith also came third overall and also finished first in Standard Senior but only got a prize for Standard Senior and the fourth shooter overall was then given the third prize! Was he not also entitled to the overall third prize? What happened there? Anyone know?

Are you related to Paul or something? Seriously your posts in this thread are weird for someone who doesn't actually take part in the sport afaik. Paul's a nice chap, I'm sure his ears must be burning with all these mentions of him, and what prizes he did or didn't get etc.

To answer your question about the HH competition: As there were at least 5 people signed as shooting Standard - Senior, that category was eligible for prizes. As a consequence, Standard - Senior shooters weren't in the running for Standard - Regular prizes. That's my understanding anyway.

Oh, and none of us is allowed to slag ISSF until we're shooting all alphas in every match. :P

Bananaman

Sparks,

Classifiers can allow you to gauge your progress in accuracy and speed, however the ethos of "Practical Shooting" is to test the competitors ability to solve the challenge, on the spot, as well as perform that solution to the best of their ability. Therefore, to really know what your performance is like in relation to another, you must go compete agianst them to find out as the match is always a one off challenge.

The world shoot decided the world champion, on the day, and that is it

Classifiers can appear in a competition and are scored as a normal stage for the purposes of determining who won the match.

However, if the holders of the match wish to do so, they can pay to have the results of those classifiers registered with the IPSC itself. The shooters then get a world ranking - on that classifier - if you shoot the same classifier again, and the holders pay for the submission, your world ranking may improve.

I could be wrong, but I believe you do not need a sanctioned match to submit this but you do need a recognised range officer to validate the stage setup and score.

The payment requirement is to prevent people continuously shooting the same stage, day after day, to try to get a better world ranking. The intentions is that you do it under match pressure, the same as everyone else.

I personally have a world ranking in two classifiers, which I shot at the Lithuanian Open this year. There may be more that two digits in my world ranking.:p

As to the firearm choice - the 'A' (Alpha) is worth 5 points regardless of calibre - if you miss it and hit one of the outer zones ('C' or 'D') then a larger calibre is an advantage.
I shoot a minor calibre (9mm) so I try not to miss the Alpha.
Yur firearm choice may put you in a different classification aswell.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

to really know what your performance is like in relation to another, you must go compete agianst them to find out as the match is always a one off challenge.

We get an element of that in ISSF in the outdoor events. Wind & light are variable, thus you can't get a perfect comparison between two matches - so you can't hold a 50m qualifier round over two details in a world cup type competition - but you can get enough to get a good idea of how you compare to the international shooters.
I just can't get behind the idea of every competition being something you can't train for, can't repeat and can't compare. It makes no sense at all to me.

The world shoot decided the world champion, on the day, and that is it

So the world champion really doesn't know if he's the best, just the best on that day in that place with that layout and that set of competitors. Each to their own, but I prefer our way - if you shoot 600 in the world championships, you know you're the best, at least to the level that anyone can ever know it. If you win by shooting a 595, you know you got it because others had bad days, not because you were better shooters than they were. I like that lack of fudge

The payment requirement is to prevent people continuously shooting the same stage, day after day, to try to get a better world ranking.

In other sports, we'd call that training

The intentions is that you do it under match pressure, the same as everyone else.

If you think match pressure goes away because you know the course of fire, you need to go to more matches

I personally have a world ranking in two classifiers, which I shot at the Lithuanian Open this year. There may be more that two digits in my world ranking.:p

There's no shame in that!

As to the firearm choice - the 'A' (Alpha) is worth 5 points regardless of calibre - if you miss it and hit one of the outer zones ('C' or 'D') then a larger calibre is an advantage.

That's what I meant - I can understand spending money on batch-tested ammo so you have more consistent shooting, but this thing that one kind of firearm gives you higher results than another if you don't hit the ten ring, that's just wierd to me. I just don't see the point to it. In ISSF 300m shooting, you can use any calibre to 8mm, but if you hit the nine, you hit the nine and that's the end of it.

Bananaman

Right now - I am competing at in interclub/national level. What I mean by that is that my current goals are to do better againt members of my own club and against people at a national level.

At the moment, in Ireland, there are very few IPSC shooters - I have been at matches where there were more competitors than there are shooters in Ireland. Therefore everyone knows everyone and knows who is doing well in their division. There is no sense that Bob (fictional name for current goal) is '10%' better than me - I simply know he is better than me and I know that I can beat him and must work at it. Some of it is down to skills training/practice and some of it is down to the roll of the dice where the challenge on the day may play to his or my best skills.

Until recently, I hadn't done any structured training, bar the safety courses to get my license to compete. I simpy shot the matches safely and enjoyed myself.

Now with the impending European Championships and World shoot within reach that is changing. I did a course recently where a few subtle changes were made and the performance increase was immediatley evident..

Still, I can only rank myself. I need to know that my draw, magazine change, two handed, left handed, right handed, prone, kneeling, 10 yard, 20 yards, etc shooting is the best it has been because until I go to the match I do not know what I will face. If on the day I beat 'Bob', great, if I don't but I shoot all alphas, great. If I let myself down with my left handed shooting I work on it.

You're only as good as your last match - (in which I came 7th out of about 40 in my division and beat 'Bob'.)

If you look at the IPSC world shoot - Saul Kirsch has often been the Bridesmaid but never the Bride - having been pipped many times but always placed in the top 10. This time he was 7th. Most people would regard his as one of the best shooters in the world. (He used to shoot ISSF rifle but switched to IPSC Pistol)

In the shoot-off - knockout speed shoot between the top eight in each diviision - he beat Eric Grauffel (reigning world champ for a good few years)

He may think he did well or not in the match but all anyone will remember is that he beat the world champ - on the day - manno'a'manno.

B'Man

Bananaman

I just can't get behind the idea of every competition being something you can't train for, can't repeat and can't compare. It makes no sense at all to me

Oh - you can train for it - you need to work on all the shooting skills - it is quite possible, especially at the top shoots - where you may have to run 20 yards to the first shooting position and engage some classic targets (Alphas) at 5 yards followd by some 200mm plates at 50m metres, followd by classic targets at 30 metres, prone, followed by a target 75% obscured by a penalty target @ 25 yards with your left hand only.

You just need to train for every eventuality, all the time thinking safety, safety, safety,

In other sports, we'd call that training

What I meant, in that context, is that you cannot just go to the range and shoot a classifier all day and submit your best score. You can go to the range and shoot a classifier all day but you must recreate that performance, at a match, to get the ranking.

but this thing that one kind of firearm gives you higher results than another if you don't hit the ten ring

To be honest it's not an advantage.
People, like myself, who shoot 9mm in standard division, are at a disadvantage, by our own choosing.
A lot of people would shoot .40 or bigger. It's what I had and it's the division my firearm falls into. I don't wnat to go through the hassle of getting another one.
Make the winning all the sweeter when the competiton have an advantage

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

What I meant, in that context, is that you cannot just go to the range and shoot a classifier all day and submit your best score. You can go to the range and shoot a classifier all day but you must recreate that performance, at a match, to get the ranking.

Hang on, is it the classifier that decides your world ranking or the match results?

Make the winning all the sweeter when the competiton have an advantage

Doesn't seem terribly practical to me. I'll take an even field over an uneven one any day of the week. Otherwise someone could say "sure, you won, but only 'cos I was using this pistol, if I had yours I'd have beaten you". And they could well be right.

Bananaman

Is it the classifier that decides your world ranking or the match results?

You get a ranking in THAT particular classifier e.g. here is my world classification - I am currently 'unclassified' as I only have two submissions - I require 4 to get a classification. Someone of Grand Master rank mut be competing at the match for the scores to count towards classification.
Once I have four and a classification, the best 4 of my most recent 8 will give me my ranking, I believe.
(http://www.ipsc.org/ics.htm)

Date        Classifier Stage or Match Name   	          Percent  
2008-07-05   CLC-03  	                                  22.70 
2008-07-05   CLC-33  	                                  20.87 

Doesn't seem terribly practical to me

The puns just keep on coming

The sport was here before I was - I only abide by the rules.
Generally speaking 9mm compete in production division but there is a limites set of firesrms that may be used in that division and no changes may be made to it e.g. no grip tape, no changing the sights, no anything.
.40 and above compete in standard.
I have a Glock model 34 - it qualifies for Standard but not for production (The Glock model 17 is on the production list)
To remove my disadvantage I either go buy a Glock 17 for production or a Glock 35 (.40) for standard.
Right now - I'm happy out.

B'Man