Should bus station control be taken away from BE?

Colm R

I was going to ask this on the thread regarding Citylink closing its Galway Cork route.

So why does BE have exclusive access to Irelands Bus stations? Now before we start, I think Dublins Bus Aras is in need of a drastic overhaul to imporve space and access for passengers and buses.

But should state owned property like this be opened up to proper competition. Why does the Citylink/Aircoach/JJ Kavanagh etc intercity services not have access to these centralised facilities.

Just to add, what I would do with Bus Aras is:

knock it.
rebuild it with 5% of the current space as they don't all need to work there.
build two or three levels possibly going out over Amiens Street and the Luas line.
Dedicate one floor to intercity buses and another floor to commuter services.
Then allow in anyone who wants to run a service provided they have a licence etc.

The problem is what do you do with the buses during contruction.

Ste.phen

While I agree that we need a new/better bus terminal, Busáras is a listed building, and quite rightly IMHO.

What they could/should do is build a bus station on the Connolly Station carpark, and have a travelator from the main rail station concourse over to it.

Look at all that space!
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=swrrqsggck4q&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=29507652&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

paulm17781

Colm R wrote: »

So why does BE have exclusive access to Irelands Bus stations?

Unions would throw a hissy fit otherwise.

markpb

Colm R wrote: »

Then allow in anyone who wants to run a service provided they have a licence etc.

I'd very few operators would be keen on using Busaras in it's current state. Having to orbit the building at least twice (once on the way in and once on the way out) as well as joining a very busy road with no traffic lights could add several minutes to their journey.

Victor

Igy wrote: »

What they could/should do is build a bus station on the Connolly Station carpark

This is currently planned.

Ste.phen

Victor wrote: »

This is currently planned.

I probably shouldn't claim that as a fantastic idea on my part, then

Must have seen it mentioned somewhere. Are the plans likely to come to fruition, is there a timetable, etc?

L1011

I've a feeling it would be hard to get permission to knock Bus Aras... could see it getting protected at some stage in the near future as its one of the decent examples of mid 20th century architechture we have.

dowlingm

CIE still exists. What is needed is to demerge CIE as a property owner from BE/DB/IE, with the latter only owning non-public structures and lands such as the Portlaoise Train Care Depot and the various bus garages. However, as was seen with the demerger of Aer Rianta, easier said than done.

As noted above, demolishing Busarus ain't gonna happen.

Rawr

Igy wrote: »

What they could/should do is build a bus station on the Connolly Station carpark, and have a travelator from the main rail station concourse over to it.

Built a new Bus Station next to Connolly St? That's a great idea! It would provide an excellent transport hub.

I know that the current Busaras is not all that far away from Connolly (5 mins walk or 2 second Luas ride if you are incredibly lazy), but the only link available is a small staggered pedestrian crossing that only just gives you enough time to get across both lanes. A new station which is phyically linked to Connolly's main ticket-hall would be the way to go.

Do you have any information on the bus station plans Victor?

Victor

Rawr wrote: »

Do you have any information on the bus station plans Victor?

I don't think they have any design yet. It would be part of a greater redevelopment of that area, with offices and apartments.

KC61

I think that this is certainly something that will result in a negative comment from the current EU investigation into the use of state subsidies by our public transport companies. The provision of bus stations for the exclusive use by Bus Éireann using state aid is indefensible. There should (quite simply) be one bus station in each town/city for use by all operators.

The nonsense that prevails in each of the cities Dublin with private coaches picking up for long distance services on city streets (and particularly Aircoach on Westmoreland Street) has got to stop. It causes obstructions to city bus services and ordinary traffic, and also in some locations is nothing short of dangerous.

I would certainly hope that this will be a concrete proposal from the EU investigation.

HydeRoad

A simple piece of logic to my mind, would be to take all long distance Bus Éireann services out of Busáras, and move them to Connolly.

Then Busáras could be used for local bus routes coming in from the north east of the city, routes 31, 41, 42, for example, and perhaps one or two southside routes via Tara Street, say the 65 and 84 routes. Perhaps also the Bus Éireann Ashbourne and Kildare routes. This would get rid of those buses from parking on city streets. One of the stipulations, of course, would be an unpleasantly modern idea of buses entering the city, pulling into the terminus, loading, and exiting the city again without delay. All layover and crew change operations should happen at the outer end of these routes, or in the depots.

If O'Connell Street is ever to be prioritised for trams and pedestrianisation, the buses will have to go elsewhere, and now is the time to start planning, not, as Dublin Bus seem to be doing with all these fancy new bus stops, be staking long term claims to unreasonable amounts of city street kerbside space which is unsustainable in the future.

Hotblack Desiato

Colm R wrote: »

rebuild it with 5% of the current space as they don't all need to work there.

They don't all work there. It's the HQ of the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote: »

I think that this is certainly something that will result in a negative comment from the current EU investigation into the use of state subsidies by our public transport companies. The provision of bus stations for the exclusive use by Bus Éireann using state aid is indefensible. There should (quite simply) be one bus station in each town/city for use by all operators.

The nonsense that prevails in each of the cities Dublin with private coaches picking up for long distance services on city streets (and particularly Aircoach on Westmoreland Street) has got to stop. It causes obstructions to city bus services and ordinary traffic, and also in some locations is nothing short of dangerous.

I would certainly hope that this will be a concrete proposal from the EU investigation.

KC61, for this to happen in a fair minded and level manner will require either the DoT or local authorities in cities and towns to provide it as an level and fair exercise for ALL providers. Given their current Arse/Elbow management of bus services in Ireland, can we be surprised that nowt has and will be done on it?

lostexpectation

can't private operators build there own bus stations?

Colm R

lostexpectation wrote: »

can't private operators build there own bus stations?

Does each airline build its own airport?

A centralised bus station for all providers is the way to making life easier for the travelling public and tourists.

All over the world, the bus and train stations are provided by local authorites and used by any provider who wants to use it. Port Authority bus station in Manahattan is a classic example of this.

monument

Colm R wrote: »

All over the world, the bus and train stations are provided by local authorites and used by any provider who wants to use it. Port Authority bus station in Manahattan is a classic example of this.

Where exactly? What exactly is covered by "All over the world"?

Victor wrote: »

This is currently planned.

Now, or at least when ever it is built, the next thing is all of the intercity buses need to take the Port Tunnel / M50 to get there.

KC61

My point is that the bus stations were financed using public funds, not from Bus Eireann's own funds. Therefore I really do think that it is nonsensical that only BÉ can use the bus stations. I honestly think that there can be no legitimate justification for this, and I cannot see the EU agreeing to it.

Incidentally, there is now a private bus station open for business in Galway. Meanwhile the Bus Éireann bus station is held up in the planning process, and people still have to squeeze their way up the ramp outside Ceannt Station.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

My point is that the bus stations were financed using public funds, not from Bus Eireann's own funds. Therefore I really do think that it is nonsensical that only BÉ can use the bus stations. I honestly think that there can be no legitimate justification for this, and I cannot see the EU agreeing to it.

Have you or do you work for the Competition Authority or a private transport company or related companies or groups?

What about public funds for a state owned company and private funds for privately owned companies?

Did you know the Minister for Transport / the Department of Transport owns BE on behalf of the State, which owns it on behalf of the people (ie the public). See the connection? Public funds for a company owned (indirectly) by the public? [I'm posing this as a question as it does not look like you know such]

If you want to continue the argument implying BE are a normal private transport company I would then say interfering with their assets is anti-free market and anti-competitive to the highest order.

You may now argue that there's waste in the system, but that's a different argument than you are using now. Another argument you may want to use is to call BE anti-competitive, but if that is really the case - by your rules - they should be treated like any other company who are acting anti-competitive. Can you honestly disagree with this... or is it you only want companies interfered with when it suits your view point?

KC61 wrote: »

Incidentally, there is now a private bus station open for business in Galway. Meanwhile the Bus Éireann bus station is held up in the planning process, and people still have to squeeze their way up the ramp outside Ceannt Station.

The main station in Dublin is also full to the brim... what exactly would be the point in trying to overload them more? Or even more to the point how exactly to you propose to overload them more? Where are the private buses to fit?

markpb

I think you're missing the point a little monument. KC61 (I hope) isn't proposing it has to be opened up to other operators, he's just posing the question that since the EU has a problem with the government giving subsidies to CIE companies but not giving the same subsidies to private companies, how would they feel about the government giving state assets (which amount to a subsidy) to BE when those assets aren't available to private companies.

monument

markpb wrote: »

I think you're missing the point a little monument. KC61 (I hope) isn't proposing it has to be opened up to other operators, he's just posing the question that since the EU has a problem with the government giving subsidies to CIE companies but not giving the same subsidies to private companies, how would they feel about the government giving state assets (which amount to a subsidy) to BE when those assets aren't available to private companies.

By his logic (or at least the logic implied in his posts) the Government are CIE's owners and there should be no problem with the owner of a company giving it money or allowing it to use its property etc.

If anybody is going to say "the State/Government are all powerful etc", down that road of argument I have to ask: Are we to stop well funded, powerful multinational parent companies giving money to companies they own? The Competition Authority would have a collective hart attack.

markpb

I don't think the EU look at it like that. Their concern is that governments will give state aid to one company (which they own) but not other companies that are licensed to compete with the state company. By their view, this is unfair competition.

This is why governments can't give money (on an ongoing basis) to national airlines anymore. They can provide rescue packages or they can pay them a subsidy to provide a public service obligation (Dublin - Kerry is one such route) but they can't just give them money each year.

monument

I know how the EU look at it.

They do so in a very blinkered way. They want State owned companies to act one way (ie act like a private companies) when it suits their view point but in other key areas they quickly dispatch from this.

So, my question still stands...

If anybody is going to say "the State/Government are all powerful etc" [which is apparently the reason for the EU's stand point], down that road of argument I have to ask: Are we to stop well funded, powerful multinational parent companies giving money to companies they own?

And if anybody is thinking "But it protects small companies?", yeah, the above question would be linked to that matter too.

AlekSmart

Its amazing what a World Wide economic collapse will do.

From a situation some 6 months ago whereby the EU was confidently expected to strike down all and every piece of State Aid to National Public Transport operators we now have a far less certain vista opening up.

The entity of the EU as we know it is suffering fiscally also,with many of its own directorates under pressure to scale back their,hugely expensive,programmes.

Our own Department of Transport is virtually alone in Europe in adhering with commendable ridigity to what it assumes EU policy to be.(The boy stood on the burning deck principle)

Throughout the remainder of developed Europe,National and Local Governments continue to preside over extremely functional and generally Public Service focused systems.
Many of these Administrations take a quite fluid view of EU regulations and in some cases take a robust stance when challenged by the relevant directorate whether Transport or Competition related.

Our own system is little more than a farce,with the Departments "view" now restricting all sectors to the extent that as with the Patton Flyer the Departments writ is deemed to be no longer valid.

As many European countries demonstrate there is no reason whatever why Public and Private cannot operate to the betterment of the Public Service generally...however we simply do not possess any senior administrators with enough interest or vision to make any progress in this direction.

One only has to look at Departmental General Secretary Julie O Neill and the Integrated Ticketing fiasco for some case study material !!

KC61

monument wrote: »

Have you or do you work for the Competition Authority or a private transport company or related companies or groups?

What about public funds for a state owned company and private funds for privately owned companies?

Did you know the Minister for Transport / the Department of Transport owns BE on behalf of the State, which owns it on behalf of the people (ie the public). See the connection? Public funds for a company owned (indirectly) by the public? [I'm posing this as a question as it does not look like you know such]

If you want to continue the argument implying BE are a normal private transport company I would then say interfering with their assets is anti-free market and anti-competitive to the highest order.

You may now argue that there's waste in the system, but that's a different argument than you are using now. Another argument you may want to use is to call BE anti-competitive, but if that is really the case - by your rules - they should be treated like any other company who are acting anti-competitive. Can you honestly disagree with this... or is it you only want companies interfered with when it suits your view point?



The main station in Dublin is also full to the brim... what exactly would be the point in trying to overload them more? Or even more to the point how exactly to you propose to overload them more? Where are the private buses to fit?

I don't and never have worked for the competition authority, and have no vested interest in using the bus other than being a daily user and observer of public transport in Ireland.

If you go through my posts on this messageboard, you'll see a vast number of posts defending both Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus against some of the nonsense that has been coming from the Department of Transport over the last few years.

I am not suggesting that private operators should operate into/out of Busarus as there is patently no room to do so. Dublin does, however, need a new bus station as the current facility cannot in any way shape or form cope with Bus Éireann's expanding services. That new facility could serve inter-urban services, with commuter services continuing to use Busarus as Hyde Road suggests. And if that facility were provided, why should it not be available for all operators to use?

What I am saying is that some common sense needs to apply here in planning new infrastructure, and if the State is paying for brand new bus stations as it has in Ennis, Tralee, Athlone and elsewhere, it should be done in such a way as to facilitate all bus companies and not just Bus Éireann. We have a situation in several towns/cities while Bus Éireann can park/load buses in safe off-road bus stations funded by the State (quite correctly), the private operators are using on-street stops that cause traffic congestion and in some cases (as Aircoach in Westmoreland Street) result in dangerous situations prevailing as city buses cannot access the kerb safely. There needs to be some more sensible planning into these facilities, with integration being the key.

And I suspect that the EU investigation into the use of State funds will agree with the view that such new facilities should be open to all companies (and that is my opinion as an observer).

There are plenty of examples of legitimate state aid, such as grants for the purchase of new vehicles for public transport operators for services that are not economically viable, maintenance facilities for them and subsidies for their operation. This would cover most urban public transport operations and most rural services with the exception of major inter-urban routes.

However, in the case of many city services, the current stance by the DoT regarding potential competition is simply nonsensical. The ongoing 37, 41X, 141, and Celbridge/Lucan fiascos are testament to a regulator that has no idea of how to operate and manage an urban transport service, and is running scared of potential litigation.

How an extension to the 37 to Blanchardstown Centre from Carpenterstown could be refused (due to it conflicting with URbus along Castleknock Road) but (as it may appear) an extension to outside the Blanchardstown Centre might be ok is an example of how ludicrous this all is.

The fact that a local TD acting on the wishes of the combined residents' associations in Swords had to physically bring a DoT official and a Dublin Bus manager out to Swords to come up with a route for the 41X that did not (in their view) conflict with Swords Express so that the far longer established 41X could use the Port Tunnel is another example. And then we get Swords Express crying wolf?

What the whole public transport system urgently needs is an independent regulator and network manager. Competition on regular urban public transport will (in my opinion) never work, but a market definitely exists for competition on high quality urban peak hour express services (such as Swords Express), and on major inter-urban routes (such as Dublin-Cork/Limerick/Belfast). I see no reason why such inter-urban routes cannot successfully co-exist in State funded bus stations.

Voipjunkie

What about a private company being given sole access to very valuable state assets namely the tram lines

should another company not be allowed to run their trams along this valuable state asset that the government paid for

L1011

The trams are also owned by the state - Veoila just operate them. The situation is as such essentially the same as Irish Rail's.

markpb

The government held a tender to operate Luas and Veiola won. They get paid a (semi-) fixed fee each year, they don't actually get money from tickets or fines.

Cool Mo D

I think this argument exposes the back-arseways the Government is trying to implement competition in the public transport centre. Bus Eireann are expected to run a comprehensive service, while private operators can choose which routes to operate. They are all subject to waiting for DOT approval for their routes which seems to decide completely arbitrarily which new routes are allowed.

The obvious, much better way to do it is fairly simple. The Department of Transport must sit down and come up with a complete list of every bus route that should be operated in the country. These should all be put out to tender, probably in packages of routes, with bus companies returning a portion of profits on well travelled routes, and the DOT providing subsidies for lesser used routes. The bus company that offers to operate the package for the smallest total subvention gets to run it for a number of years, before it is re-tendered.

This would put an end to route duplication, and allow all services to be offered in buses with standard Bus Eireann fit out whether operated by CIE or a private company. Basically, the system used by TfL for buses in London, which works well.

Voipjunkie

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think this argument exposes the back-arseways the Government is trying to implement competition in the public transport centre. Bus Eireann are expected to run a comprehensive service, while private operators can choose which routes to operate. They are all subject to waiting for DOT approval for their routes which seems to decide completely arbitrarily which new routes are allowed.

The obvious, much better way to do it is fairly simple. The Department of Transport must sit down and come up with a complete list of every bus route that should be operated in the country. These should all be put out to tender, probably in packages of routes, with bus companies returning a portion of profits on well travelled routes, and the DOT providing subsidies for lesser used routes. The bus company that offers to operate the package for the smallest total subvention gets to run it for a number of years, before it is re-tendered.

This would put an end to route duplication, and allow all services to be offered in buses with standard Bus Eireann fit out whether operated by CIE or a private company. Basically, the system used by TfL for buses in London, which works well.

Thats not the system run by TfL and besides the TFL system only works because of the huge subsidies supplied by KL when he was Mayor lets see if Boris keeps pumping in the money and if he does not how well the system survives.

The problem with the system you have suggested is that companies compete with each other by driving down the only cost that they have any control over ( given that diesel and buses cost the same pretty much to everybody) labour.
what happened in London before red ken pumped in Billions was that the companies simply could not keep staff at the wage rates they had budgeted for in their tender. But they also could not afford to pay anymore and had no incentive to develope the business as they were paid a rate no matter how well a route did.

yes a lot of these problems could be addresses with proper standards and regulation but we don't have a great track record here for that

dowlingm

Here in Toronto the central long distance bus terminal is owned by the City through the Transit Commission and is shared by Coach Canada, Greyhound and others.

I think the object here should be to release some of the bus termini to local authority ownership, starting with standalone stations like Cork and Busaras. A slot system for bus stands could then be operated in a similar manner to airport stands, with operators only occupying stands when boarding passengers and vacating promptly at scheduled departure times.

monument

I don't know Cork... but AGAIN where is the space in Busaras???

KC61

monument wrote: »

I don't know Cork... but AGAIN where is the space in Busaras???

If you read my posts above I referred to the fact that Dublin needs a NEW bus station. You obviously cannot fit even all of Bus Éireann's own services into Busarus. What could then happen is one bus station for inter-urban services, and one for commuter services - at that point all of the operators could share the facilities.

Any comments that I've made above make reference to brand new facilities that have been built with state aid, such as Tralee, Ennis, Athlone, Letterkenny, but that Bus Eireann have exclusive use of, whilst private operators are still stopping on streets causing congestion etc.