Mobiles on Aircraft

Davidth88

Ok, so we all know we are meant to switch our phones off, except soon on FR flights.

Anyway yesterday morning I was flying LHR-ORK we were about 10 in line to take off suddenly the chap behind starts a very loud conversation on the phone, giving out about the length of taxi, how the captain didn't know where he was going etc.

The flight attendant asked him to switch it off , he refused , carried on talking , they threatened to ' tell the cockpit ' about him and he shut up.

Anyway made me realise how peaceful it is without mobiles , rather hope the FR thing fails , although I guess it won't !

Fratton Fred

When I was at Vodafone there was a big thing about putting "Leaky Cables" on the underground so you could get mobile reception down there, unti they realised no one wants it.

These places are like a sanctuary from mobiles, it is just nice to be able to turn the thing off for an hour or so.

still strikes me as funny that using your phone could make the plane fly into a mountain, unless we charge you to use it:rolleyes:

pclancy

Yep there are very few places left that are sacred from the pain of some bloke or lady going on about their day, the weather or the latest sales forcasts and KPIs from today's board meeting. The safety factors aside, to me its just common courtesy not to blabber away when loads of other people can hear you. But there's always some muppet who cant be disconnected from the office for more then 10 seconds without panicking.

Silenceisbliss

and that is the ONLY reason why phones are not permitted on planes. all this BS about interfereing with instrumentation is as transparent as can be. I stand by the no phones rule though. It would drive me absolutly NUTS if I was locked in the plane beside some loud mouth who has to call everyone in her phone book while on the plane to pass the time. and you just know literally half of the plane would do this. can you imagine the noise?! it would be extremely unpleasant

Tenger

Silenceisbliss wrote: »

and that is the ONLY reason why phones are not permitted on planes. all this BS about interfereing with instrumentation is as transparent as can be. I stand by the no phones rule though.

Thats right, ignore the fact that phones are banned for SAFETY reasons.
Mobiles MAY interfere with some onboard equipment,thats why airlines do not take a chance. Its the same with not using your phone at a filling station or in an intensive care unit.

However I do agree with your rant that the no phones rule does allow cabin to remain an escape from 'fools blabbering'.


And remember that FR are introducing the phone usage on 10 aircraft first. This is due to the installation of a small cell on the aircraft. This will cause a lot of problems as many pax will assume they can use their mobile on all FR flights.

chickenhawk

Bramble wrote: »

.
Mobiles MAY interfere with some onboard equipment,thats why airlines do not take a chance. Its the same with not using your phone at a filling station or in an intensive care unit.

It's pretty widely accepted that it is very unlikely that phones cause interference to planes. Many studies have proven this but it's just because no one want's to take the risk and the noise of everyone on their phone would be too annoying. I know a few doctors who are always on their mobile in hospitals. I have also used my phone while filling petrol and I have never caused a fire.

But it would be awful if people were allowed to use their mobiles. Extra noise, and there is always going to be one guy who wants everyone to know where he is going and how important he is.

Duffman

Bramble wrote: »

Thats right, ignore the fact that phones are banned for SAFETY reasons.
Mobiles MAY interfere with some onboard equipment,thats why airlines do not take a chance.

This is rubbish. Think about it for a minute. On every flight there are a handful of people that forget to switch off their phones. I know I have done it.

Now, with this in mind, if there was even the slightest chance that handsets could interfere with critical flight systems do you really think airlines would permit them to be carried on board in the first place?

You are right to say that airlines don't take chances with things like this. The fact that you can bring a phone onto a plane demonstrates how much of a threat they pose to safety.

One possible reason for the rule is that a plane carrying a few hundred handsets would wreak havoc on mobile networks on the ground as the phones moving at high speed overwhelm cells.

pclancy

Yeah if there was definate evidence that they cuased interference they wouldnt be allowed at all or at least blocked in some way from operating.

I would assume as well that on a plane at crusing alt you're not going to get any signal at all from a mobile cell mast though...

*Kol*

Anyway a lot of airlines will be bringing in onboard mobile networks so that pax can use their mobile phones during flights. Havng a mobile network on board will mean that the mobile phones will not have to use as much power to search for a network. As was said previously you wouldn't get a signal in cruise anyway from a ground based cell so every mobile on board if it were switched on would be searching at max power in that case.

Davidth88

Guys,

Have you ever been on a landline when you recv a txt ? You hear terrible interferance.

Now consider your pilot is recv instructions from the ground and someone gets a txt/the mobile is hunting for a network........

The problem is your mobile increases it's power when it can't find a cell , and hunts for one, so you end up with it on max power. The FR idea is to make the aeroplane its own cell , therefore reducing the power.

I don't think an aeroplane would ' fall out of the sky ' if you have a mobile on but there is a risk to communications at least.

I for one hope the experment fails , the experience I had on Sunday was pretty un-pleasant with a guy who had obviously had breakfast in the bar shouting and screaming down the phone that the captain was an idiot, and that aer lingus are the worst airline in the world blah blah blah ... I nearly hit him myself. Just imagine what it would be like on a 3am flight to Malaga with all the ' howayas ' roaring and screaming on the phone.

*Kol*

There is no real risk for interference on VHF coms in a large aircraft from mobile phones. If it was an issue they would be introducing the onboard networks.

OS119

i have no idea whether mobiles work on any of the same principles - as i'm a complete luddite who believes such things are a new form of devilry - but in the mid-1980's a pair of Luftwaffe Tornado's suffered a total loss of their relitively new 'fly-by-wire' flying controls as they did a low level run past a civilian FM transmitter. both aircraft were lost - and all four crew killed.

its quite possible that - almost regardless of the technical issues involved - the aviation industry has an emotional fear of the effects of radio signals on fly-by-wire systems that continues to this day.

*Kol*

OS119 wrote: »

i have no idea whether mobiles work on any of the same principles - as i'm a complete luddite who believes such things are a new form of devilry - but in the mid-1980's a pair of Luftwaffe Tornado's suffered a total loss of their relitively new 'fly-by-wire' flying controls as they did a low level run past a civilian FM transmitter. both aircraft were lost - and all four crew killed.

its quite possible that - almost regardless of the technical issues involved - the aviation industry has an emotional fear of the effects of radio signals on fly-by-wire systems that continues to this day.

EASA regs require that all VHF Comm and NAV equipment on transport category aircraft are FM immune. In relation to other systems I dont know if that is the case.

Del2005

Davidth88 wrote: »

Guys,

Have you ever been on a landline when you recv a txt ? You hear terrible interferance.

Now consider your pilot is recv instructions from the ground and someone gets a txt/the mobile is hunting for a network.....

I've heard this used as for not letting mobiles onto planes several times. Is there a reason why the pilot can't ask the controller to repeat what they said? And if the controllers are doing their jobs correctly there should be no issues with repeating the instructions, as I'm sure not all pilots can understand every accent they hear.

The problem is your mobile increases it's power when it can't find a cell , and hunts for one, so you end up with it on max power. The FR idea is to make the aeroplane its own cell , therefore reducing the power.

I don't think an aeroplane would ' fall out of the sky ' if you have a mobile on but there is a risk to communications at least.

I for one hope the experment fails , the experience I had on Sunday was pretty un-pleasant with a guy who had obviously had breakfast in the bar shouting and screaming down the phone that the captain was an idiot, and that aer lingus are the worst airline in the world blah blah blah ... I nearly hit him myself. Just imagine what it would be like on a 3am flight to Malaga with all the ' howayas ' roaring and screaming on the phone.

I hope it fails also. Bit like the phones in US plane seats, always wanted to make a call on them but never willing to pay the money.

Are Ryanair going to set their own rates or will it be standard charges. I'd say they'll set a huge premium if they can so people won't use it anyway.

diverdriver

Is there a reason why the pilot can't ask the controller to repeat what they said?

Yes there is a reason. It could be an instruction to descend immediately because interference from a mobile phone onboard may have caused the aircraft to go off course or because the pilot never heard the instruction to turn in the first place.

There are some ridiculous comments on this thread.:mad:

I have had a problem hearing the radio when my mobile started chirping on my headset. My fault entirely but imagine if all the passengers mobiles started the same thing?

The truth is that there is evidence that using mobiles can cause interference. What many fail to realise is that all the electronics are not 'up there' on the flight deck but are all around the aircraft, right beneath your or on antennae just above you. Wires run past you behind all those plastic panels.

The truth is no one really know what kind of interference can be caused. When they do, then we can use our phones on aircraft. Until then sit down and shut up.

Davidth88

Diverdriver beat me to it.

Consider this , you are on finals , and the ATC see something wrong and order you to go around , you don't argue, you apply power and get out of there , now think the ATC say gcrackcrackcrack....... you miss the instruction and land on someones head !

Bit over dramatic maybe , but I was making the point.


Of course FR are going to charge a premium , they charge you for everything else after all, the only reason FR are doing this is to make money. They are not doing it for fun , after all the kit will cost quite a lot of money, and the extra weight etc .

I like most people have no idea if mobiles interfere with anything on an airliner , but Ill be honest I am not willing to take the risk. No phone call is worth that ( although seeing drivers making calls/txts you wonder ! ).

I truly doubt if one mobile phone would make an airliner drop out of the sky , I would like to think that they are not that delicate, but as I said before I don't KNOW this.

Wasn't there a case recently on an Italian airliner where the captain heard some interferance while taxiing and turned around and got someone thrown off ?

Of course airlines do make some silly rules , for example MP3 players were banned by Aerlingus when they first appeared ( even during cruise ), and really I can't see how they can effect things. ( I think it was ban anything we don't understand )

Interestingly Emerates allow you to make calls during the taxi until the crew sit down for take off.

*Kol*

diverdriver wrote: »

Yes there is a reason. It could be an instruction to descend immediately because interference from a mobile phone onboard may have caused the aircraft to go off course or because the pilot never heard the instruction to turn in the first place.

There is absolutely no reason why a pilot can't ask for the controller to repeat what they have said. If you fly into countries where the controllers first language is not english it is very common for them to have to repeat themselves.

diverdriver wrote: »

There are some ridiculous comments on this thread.:mad:.

Maybe there are. Don't let it get to you.

diverdriver wrote: »

The truth is no one really know what kind of interference can be caused. When they do, then we can use our phones on aircraft. Until then sit down and shut up.

The fact is that there are already systems that are certified right now for using mobile phones on aircraft. So it's unfair of you to tell anybody to sit down and shut up.

jmayo

chickenhawk wrote: »

It's pretty widely accepted that it is very unlikely that phones cause interference to planes. Many studies have proven this but it's just because no one want's to take the risk and the noise of everyone on their phone would be too annoying. I know a few doctors who are always on their mobile in hospitals. I have also used my phone while filling petrol and I have never caused a fire.

But it would be awful if people were allowed to use their mobiles. Extra noise, and there is always going to be one guy who wants everyone to know where he is going and how important he is.

Actually that is not strictly true about hospitals.
Doctors may be on the phones in hospitals, but I would bet they are not on them whilst in ICUs or theatres because they can interfere with some equipment particularly wireless telemetry monitoring devices.

diverdriver

There is absolutely no reason why a pilot can't ask for the controller to repeat what they have said. If you fly into countries where the controllers first language is not english it is very common for them to have to repeat themselves.

Where is the disbelief smilie? This will have to do.

Resisting the urge to be patronising. I will say you are obviously not a pilot *Kol*. Try listening to an airband radio or perhaps this website. http://www.liveatc.net/ You can listen in on a Shannon or Dublin at times.

When you have, come back here and tell me that there is 'absolutely no reason why a pilot can't ask the controller to repeat what they said' On a busy frequency there is every reason to be able to hear the instruction first time.

Let me give you a typical example. I get airborne, Shannon is talking to someone who needs repeats or is slow on the uptake. I'm approaching controlled airspace. What do I do? I stop the climb. Now I'm burning fuel at low level right amongst the fun flyers. Shannon is too busy to tell me there's a chopper on a reciprocal course at my altitude. Is that a good enough reason?

Pilots missing calls or asking for repeats are more than a mere nuisance. It's dangerous.

*Kol*

diverdriver wrote: »

Where is the disbelief smilie? This will have to do.

Resisting the urge to be patronising. I will say you are obviously not a pilot *Kol*. Try listening to an airband radio or perhaps this website. http://www.liveatc.net/ You can listen in on a Shannon or Dublin at times.

When you have, come back here and tell me that there is 'absolutely no reason why a pilot can't ask the controller to repeat what they said' On a busy frequency there is every reason to be able to hear the instruction first time.

Let me give you a typical example. I get airborne, Shannon is talking to someone who needs repeats or is slow on the uptake. I'm approaching controlled airspace. What do I do? I stop the climb. Now I'm burning fuel at low level right amongst the fun flyers. Shannon is too busy to tell me there's a chopper on a reciprocal course at my altitude. Is that a good enough reason?

Pilots missing calls or asking for repeats are more than a mere nuisance. It's dangerous.

I don't mean to be patronising but you obviously haven't flown an aircraft in Asia or Russia and you clearly didn't read my post properly as I specifically mentioned countries where english may not be the first language. Shannon would not be one of these.

I understand your point that all pilots should pick up and understand calls from the ATC. At times they may not for whatever reason so it is perfectly acceptable to ask for a repeat in these rare case rather than make an error based on what you thought the ATC may have said. You can give all the examples you like but its a fact that sometimes the ATC instructions may have to be repeated.

diverdriver

Del2005 said:

I've heard this used as for not letting mobiles onto planes several times. Is there a reason why the pilot can't ask the controller to repeat what they said? And if the controllers are doing their jobs correctly there should be no issues with repeating the instructions, as I'm sure not all pilots can understand every accent they hear.

*Kol* said

There is absolutely no reason why a pilot can't ask for the controller to repeat what they have said. If you fly into countries where the controllers first language is not english it is very common for them to have to repeat themselves.

Standing alone out of context your statement is indeed correct. There is no reason why a pilot can't ask a controller to repeat. In fact it's essential to do so if you don't understand the communication. But lets not play at semantics, Del2005 referred to mobile interference. I was referring to mobile interference. The thread is about mobile interference. It's nothing to do with regional accents.

Don't worry, you're not patronising. I don't fly in Russia or Asia, well not yet. But if I do the last thing I need is to have a mobile phone interference adding to my difficulty in understanding what controllers say. Oh and by the way, there is at least one Spanish accented controller on the Shannon. I've never had to ask him to repeat though.:p

pclancy

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate If a bit of phone interference interferes with radio coms the plane will still be flown safely using its commander's judgement and final authority over what's safe. If you dont understand something you ask again and readback the instruction correctly, no matter how busy the airspace.

Lets hope they stay banned onboard for as long as possible. We know its technically safe and the avionics are certified but for our own poor ears lets hope they don't become more widespread

Tenger

pclancy wrote: »

Lets hope they stay banned onboard for as long as possible. We know its technically safe and the avionics are certified but for our own poor ears lets hope they don't become more widespread

In an effort to get back on topic:

I think we can all agree that the chance of mobiles significantly interfering with aircraft operation is negligible.Studies have shown the risk is very low but have not conclusively proven that there is no risk at all. (I have personally seen interference whilst in the cockpit which stopped after cabin crew physically checked all phones on board were off.....no evidence that it was mobiles that caused it....it may be just coincidence)

Airlines however try to minimise this risk by instructing pax to keep them turned off (or use flight mode depending on the airline) This aggravates pax which airline staff usually try not to do.

Some airlines are introducing onboard cells to allow limited mobile usage as an additional amenity and/or revenue generator. If successful (which I think it will be) this may well become the norm on all commercial aircraft.

Until all airlines install this eqipment you are required to obey the instructions/policy of the airline you are travelling on. This is part of the terms and conditions bit that most people throw out after printing.

mikeyb

I heard that the reason airlines don't want mobiles used onboard is that the sudden disappearance of a hundred or so phones from a cell causes a great deal of technical grief to the network. I also heard that airlines are charged a fine each time this happens. So, from what I've heard, it's nothing to do with safety, however, personally I have no wish to use my mobile when on a flight. I can stand to wait a few hours.

Don't know how true the above is but I heard it from a wireless telecoms guy, not from anyone connected with flying

Geri Boyle

Hi all, im new to this particular forum.. Not an expert in aircraft by any stretch but this is an interesting topic! I agree with the ban of mobiles on aircraft simply because if something God forbid, did go wrong and my pilot needed immediate instruction I would prefer he didnt need to take time out to say 'attention passengers, we are about to crash and i cant quite hear what ground control are trying to tell me, could everyone please switch off their phone!'

Tenger

mikeyb wrote: »

I heard that the reason airlines don't want mobiles used onboard is that the sudden disappearance of a hundred or so phones from a cell causes a great deal of technical grief to the network. I also heard that airlines are charged a fine each time this happens.

This seems bizare to me. How do the cell company know which aircraft they mobiles were on when they dropped off the network? Do they bill FR,RE or EI? In 10 years at EI I haven't ever heard anything that even hints at this.


Not allowing mobiles is a precaution against a statisically tiny chance of interference.
Look at 'flight mode' on a mobile. Its disables the search for network function so the phone emits no signals looking for a network.
Another thing to tell people is that by leaving your phone on you will drain the battery quickly as it constantly tries to contact a network.

jt123456

Im not a telecommunications engineer but as far as im aware some airlines do offer mobile services. Ive flown Qatar twice and all seats in all classes have a detachable remote for the in flight entertainment and on the flip side of the remote is a phone. You just swipe your credit card on the dise and start using it. Great at FL40 half way over the indian ocean where im sure there is no signal for normal phones. The airlines would be better off using this new on board networks for supplying internet access on planes especially on long haul flights. If ryanair are to go ahead with their little gimmick, they should make a little phone booth type area in the rear toilet so we dont have to listen to evey pretend business a**hole talking about the days meeting.

Our man in Havana

Actually just convert a toilet into a phone booth.

diverdriver

cmcskeane, that is not a mobile or cell phone service. This has been around for a while. Naturally the phone service is checked for possible interference when fitted.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before mobiles are allowed on aircraft but only when everyone is sure that it won't cause problems AND when it can be used as an excellent revenue stream for the airline concerned.

*Kol*

diverdriver wrote: »

cmcskeane, that is not a mobile or cell phone service. This has been around for a while. Naturally the phone service is checked for possible interference when fitted.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before mobiles are allowed on aircraft but only when everyone is sure that it won't cause problems AND when it can be used as an excellent revenue stream for the airline concerned.

Mobiles can already be used on Emirates flights.

Davidth88

Mobiles can already be used on Emirates flights.

Really ........ when I flew them they allowed calls when on the ground .

Ill have to have a look at that

*Kol*

They have it fitted to one of their A340 aircraft.

jmayo

Bond-007 wrote: »

Actually just convert a toilet into a phone booth.

Shag that for a game of cowboys :rolleyes:
I know which one I would rather have.
I have once gotten sick as a dog on long haul flight, a carry on from getting food poisoning a few days previous and I would much rather have the use of a toilet than have a little cupboard so Johnny or Mary could phone someone to tell them they were flying at 35,000 feet.

Toilets are way more important than fecking phone booths in thre grand scheme of things.

Our man in Havana

Agreed.

But if there were to allow mobiles onboard, I would prefer if they had to go to a designated area away from other passengers.

*Kol*

I imagine the pricing will be expensive, probably the same as the current phone systems on aircraft. I dont see that people are going to be on their phones for very long at all. It would take long to go through your pay as you go top up at €3 a minute. I can't see the calls being any less than that at least initially.

Plus it would seem that initially the systems are only able to cope with calls being made by about 14 pax at a time.

Also on long haul flights there is the option to turn the cell off during the night time so that calls cannot be made.

I think it is a good thing and it would be great if it works for a blackberry so that emails could be sent an received.

Our man in Havana

Also on long haul flights there is the option to turn the cell off during the night time so that calls cannot be made.

How exactly do you define nightime on a long haul flight? The cell should either be on all the time or not at all.

Davidth88

You know what if I could TXT on an aeroplane I would find that more useful....

a) Silent
b) I can tell people I am late or whatever

Tenger

*Kol* wrote: »

They have it fitted to one of their A340 aircraft.

They will gradually introduce the equipment on all their fleet. Just as FR will start to do soon.

The mobiles may only be used on aircraft with the equipment so you may still be stopped for quite a while on both these airlines.