People who have savings should not

Kline

My dad is in his eighties and worked night shift for the later part of the twentieth century in a state job paying his fair share of tax. Before that he worked in England during WW2 on Churchill tanks as an engineer. He never drank or smoked cigarettes, didn't gamble or blow his money on flash cars. Didn't go crazy on holidays to Spain like most people do twice a year nowadays, but maybe the odd Europe camping trip here and there. He raised a big family and was wise with his cash as he went through the recessions and fuel crisis of the 70's and 80's.

So after paying tax all of his life his wife, my mother had to go into a nursing home and he now gets trivial support from the government towards this expense - Because he has savings !!! And now this budget has come in he is probably going to get hit twice and drained of every bit of savings he spent almost half a century earning, after tax.

So the moral of the story is:

Blow all your money on drink, drugs, booze, horses, flash holidays twice a year because if you don't, the government will take it from you. Don't be fooled into thinking anything different - you are better off.

If you are in disagreement by this governments recent decision. Write to your local TD and ask them to address the issue in the Dail. Even if there is a reversal, write anyway. The stress that this budget has caused to the elderly in this country is an outrage.

silverharp

Kline wrote: »

My dad is in his eighties and worked night shift for the later part of the twentieth century in a state job paying his fair share of tax. Before that he worked in England during WW2 on Churchill tanks as an engineer. He never drank or smoked cigarettes, didn't gamble or blow his money on flash cars. Didn't go crazy on holidays to Spain like most people do twice a year nowadays, but maybe the odd Europe camping trip here and there. He raised a big family and was wise with his cash as he went through the recessions and fuel crisis of the 70's and 80's.

So after paying tax all of his life his wife, my mother had to go into a nursing home and he now gets trivial support from the government towards this expense - Because he has savings !!! And now this budget has come in he is probably going to get hit twice and drained of every bit of savings he spent almost half a century earning, after tax.

So the moral of the story is:

Blow all your money on drink, drugs, booze, horses, flash holidays twice a year because if you don't, the government will take it from you. Don't be fooled into thinking anything different - you are better off.

If you are in disagreement by this governments recent decision. Write to your local TD and ask them to address the issue in the Dail. Even if there is a reversal, write anyway. The stress that this budget has caused to the elderly in this country is an outrage.

The moral of the story is that gov panders to the masses and treats savers as milk cows, if this is so then your relative should have been aware of this and taken measures to move his savings "off balance sheet"

Kline

I agree with what your saying from a self preservation point of view however, why should an elderly person have to evade the government and more than likely feel as though they were a criminal by hiding their savings? The majority of elderly people like to have a simple life and have come to that point in their lives where they feel that honesty is their truth. This escape and evasion technique is actually the cause of the whole financial crisis in the first place by altering balance sheets to make them look different to their readers.

ninty9er

Kline wrote: »

I agree with what your saying from a self preservation point of view however, why should an elderly person have to evade the government and more than likely feel as though they were a criminal by hiding their savings? The majority of elderly people like to have a simple life and have come to that point in their lives where they feel that honesty is their truth. This escape and evasion technique is actually the cause of the whole financial crisis in the first place by altering balance sheets to make them look different to their readers.

Just how much savings are we talking here. Anything upwards of €40-€50k is fair game I think. I mean what was it put away for if not to make provision for the costs of old age?
Anything up to €50k ish should be backed up by state support.

However there is now a situation where people are living 20 years after retirement that didn't exist before so we're likely to see a major shift towards partial support and a complete abandonment of full support for anyone with an income above a state pension, which we can barely afford to sustain as it is.

Kline

A nursing home for anyone needing full time care is on average 5k+ per months. If you have savings you are at the bottom of the list for public care. 40k - 50k is eight to ten months in a private nursing home, then you might be eligible to be on the list for public care, if you are lucky you might get a place. And then the medical card is removed?

So our government squanders billions on over-budgeted projects such as the port tunnel and way over budgeted roads system to the tune of billions of euros. It pushes a property market to the extremes and then bails the banks who are responsible with their hedge fund packages.

And senior citizens pay for it !

Mr. Presentable

Why should your father (or mother) who raised a large family have to be in a nursing home? One of his children should take him/her in.

That's what would have happened in the pre welfare state days, and in my opinion, is what should still happen

ninty9er

Kline wrote: »

A nursing home for anyone needing full time care is on average 5k+ per months. If you have savings you are at the bottom of the list for public care. 40k - 50k is eight to ten months in a private nursing home, then you might be eligible to be on the list for public care, if you are lucky you might get a place. And then the medical card is removed?

So our government squanders billions on over-budgeted projects such as the port tunnel and way over budgeted roads system to the tune of billions of euros. It pushes a property market to the extremes and then bails the banks who are responsible with their hedge fund packages.

And senior citizens pay for it !

I agree with a lot of the sentiment there. BUT FOR F*CK SAKE,

can people get it inot their heads that the banks....none of them....have gotten ONE CENT from the taxpayer.

€5k does seem like an overbudgeted price on the issue of overbudgeting.

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why should your father (or mother) who raised a large family have to be in a nursing home? One of his children should take him/her in.

That's what would have happened in the pre welfare state days, and in my opinion, is what should still happen

Similar situation with a neighbour. She's in her 80s and fine on her own during the day, but one of her kids stays with her EVERY night.

Kline

Some people have illnesses that require full time care such as stroke victims, whom can require two full time nurses 24 / 7 depending on the seriousness of their illness. What you are suggesting is a valid point but not necessarily a viable one in every circumstance.

And I think the "For Fu*k sake" comment on the banks is slightly pro-banks. By receiving a guarantee from the government, they are indirectly benefiting in that they are not going bust like Iceland banks (Yet) and they secure the present and future business (deposits ) because the tax payers are backing them.

ninty9er

Kline wrote: »

Some people have illnesses that require full time care such as stroke victims, whom can require two full time nurses 24 / 7 depending on the seriousness of their illness. What you are suggesting is a valid point but not necessarily a viable one in every circumstance.

And I think the "For Fu*k sake" comment on the banks is slightly pro-banks. By receiving a guarantee from the government, they are indirectly benefiting in that they are not going bust like Iceland banks (Yet) and they secure the present and future business (deposits ) because the tax payers are backing them.

And what about your parents savings? Would you like to see them go under with a bank.

Our guarantee scheme is the most imaginative, least expensive option put up anywhere on the planet, and has been copied endlessly since it was put into effect.

It was necessary, because without the builders debts, the banks WOULD have gone under and the state would be left facing the unnecessary bill of stumping up for all private deposits had it not been done.

I reckon there's short term pain here, but the ultimate goal of the long term gain is state supported respite for stroke sufferers and other people needing rehabilitative care for a short time.

is_that_so

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why should your father (or mother) who raised a large family have to be in a nursing home? One of his children should take him/her in.

That's what would have happened in the pre welfare state days, and in my opinion, is what should still happen

In pre-welfare days people died a lot younger of other diseases and so we were a lot less exposed to the range of advanced age difficulties that we see nowadays. This is the price we pay for advances in medicine. Contrary to what you might think there is no simple answer to this. Some will just die in their sleep , still fully lucid, whereas others can lose their mobility, bodily functions and identity and end up needing that care.

Kline

A friend of mine in Austria had a stroke and how he described his care compared to the Irish care system makes the Irish Care system seem like a back street garage - And that doesn't just apply to stroke victims. You ask anyone in that line of work and you'll get the same answer "Ireland doesn't cater". You get pockets here and there but thats about it.

If we are tightening things up, hit every where else, but sorry guys, pointing the finger at the elderly is just "wrong".

ninty9er

Kline wrote: »

A friend of mine in Austria had a stroke and how he described his care compared to the Irish care system makes the Irish Care system seem like a back street garage - And that doesn't just apply to stroke victims. You ask anyone in that line of work and you'll get the same answer "Ireland doesn't cater". You get pockets here and there but thats about it.

If we are tightening things up, hit every where else, but sorry guys, pointing the finger at the elderly is just "wrong".

And we'll never have that level of care as long as we waste money on paying the medical bills of the wealthy just because they're over 70.

It's not pointing the finger, it's facing up to the facts.

What's wrong is allowing kids to go hungry because we have to pay €100m to give old people with one of the most generous state pensions in the developed world free healthcare, what's wrong is SO MANY THINGS, but what is not wrong is means test the medical card for the over 70s.

is_that_so

ninty9er wrote: »

And we'll never have that level of care as long as we waste money on paying the medical bills of the wealthy just because they're over 70.

It's not pointing the finger, it's facing up to the facts.

What's wrong is allowing kids to go hungry because we have to pay €100m to give old people with one of the most generous state pensions in the developed world free healthcare, what's wrong is SO MANY THINGS, but what is not wrong is means test the medical card for the over 70s.

"I'll counter your vulnerable group with one of my own."

This just reinforces the belief in the mean-mindedness of the approach of FF/Govt and the treatment of large groups of people as just costs to be cut.

Neither argument is convincing but the concern for the over 70s , as even some of your own County Councillors are aware, is that they believe they are being unfairly targeted and some are in a great degree of agitation about it.

Whatever way you want to spin this they have made an unholy mess of it and thrown up a now effectively defunct(if one B Cowan is to be believed) but even more confusing mess of a proposal, which at present looks set to be rejected by your own party.

Kline

It would not matter how much money this government had, it would find a way of not spending it on proper Health Care. No matter how much this government saved, it would not create an adequate health care system let alone a good health care system.

Do you think now that the government has decided to hit the elderly, that the savings are going to help those "kids going hungry" - I don't even doubt it, its a definite "No".

Those savings are going to filter into the same melting pot of corruption and mis-management that is ever present in this country.

It is not the wealthy that this is going to hit. Its the average person who has worked their a*ss off all their lives. The wealthy don't bother their bo*lox with a medical card because you have to wait 6 months for an appointment and fill out this and that form.

ninty9er

Kline wrote: »

It is not the wealthy that this is going to hit. Its the average person who has worked their a*ss off all their lives. The wealthy don't bother their bo*lox with a medical card because you have to wait 6 months for an appointment and fill out this and that form.

It doesn't matter if they never use it. It's still costing the state a fortune for them to have one.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT

Macha

One major issues here is the amount that the doctors are being paid to run the medical card system. Perhaps if they didn't demand such high figures, this would be less of an issue and the huge amounts of money disappearing into the health system would be smaller.

I don't understand why doctors and consultants are allowed to hold our health care system to ransom.

genericgoon

taconnol wrote: »

I don't understand why doctors and consultants are allowed to hold our health care system to ransom.

Probably because a Health system doesn't work without them. Its sad that they are taking advantage of their incredibly strong bargaining position to this effect but what can you do?

Breezer

taconnol wrote: »

One major issues here is the amount that the doctors are being paid to run the medical card system. Perhaps if they didn't demand such high figures, this would be less of an issue and the huge amounts of money disappearing into the health system would be smaller.

I don't understand why doctors and consultants are allowed to hold our health care system to ransom.

I agree, and this should have been tackled first, before the elderly were targeted. But no, that would have involved the Government facing down vested interests, rather like the public service cuts that didn't happen either.

Whatever about means testing for medical cards, at the very least those who currently have them should be allowed to keep them. The reason being, many over 70 but better off, given a medical card by this government, expected (reasonably) to have it for life, and therefore cancelled their private health insurance. Now, they have to reapply, and any existing conditions that they suffer from either will not be covered, or will cost them an absolute fortune to insure.

ninty9er

Breezer wrote: »

Whatever about means testing for medical cards, at the very least those who currently have them should be allowed to keep them. The reason being, many over 70 but better off, given a medical card by this government, expected (reasonably) to have it for life, and therefore cancelled their private health insurance. Now, they have to reapply, and any existing conditions that they suffer from either will not be covered, or will cost them an absolute fortune to insure.

I think you're overestimating the amount of people who cancelled private care. They would have used the medical card to see a GP but private insurance for hospital stays.

I do agree with targeting doctors too though.

Macha

genericgoon wrote: »

Probably because a Health system doesn't work without them. Its sad that they are taking advantage of their incredibly strong bargaining position to this effect but what can you do?

Yeah..I think they tried to get higher salaries a few years ago and Harney faced them down so she gets a bit of my respect for doing that.

But it isn't just about the salaries. A friend of mine is a doctor in St James in Dublin and he said that basically consultants are allowed to use public facilities for free to run their own private clinics. This is something that consultants in the UK have to pay for.

I don't know what can be done about it at this stage..it's much easier not to give something in the first place than take it away. I mean I'm all for rewarding responsibility with a higher salary but..it just smacks of the same sort of over-the-top salaries that all these top bank execs earn. Does one person really need 10 times the average industrial wage?

TheBigLebowski

ninty9er wrote: »

And we'll never have that level of care as long as we waste money on paying the medical bills of the wealthy just because they're over 70.

So anybody getting 1 cent more than the state pension is wealthy? Get a grip. €240 a week does not go far.

Nobody cares if the really wealthy lose their medical card but it's the levels that are the issue. I don't think anyone will shed a tear if Gay Byrne loses his medical card.

A major boo boo by this government and one which is going to cost them a lot of votes and rightly so.

Macha

^^ Yes I agree with you there TheBigLebowski.

But there are two issues in my opinion. Firstly the levels are far too low and secondly the way the budget was announced with few details has left thousands and thousands of people over 70 and their carers extremely worried and having no idea how this measure is going to affect them.

It was the same with the car park measure, people didn't know who was going to be paying it:the employee or the employer. And same with the bank bailout. IMO it's symptomatic of FF's disregard for the electorate as they have failed to show us even minimal levels of respect either by assuming we don't care about details or by just being so bloody shoddy about the whole thing.

luckat

The free medical cards for over-70s should stay. They're more efficient, and they keep people out of full-time care for longer, so they're cheaper.

As for savings, what I'm hearing is that everyone is shrugging and spending their savings - a lot of it for sensible stuff like insulating the roof, at the moment, but basically the savings of the country are being spent.

This is what happens when you have a government made up of the cleverest boys and girls in the class. No common sense.

Kline

luckat wrote: »

The free medical cards for over-70s should stay. They're more efficient, and they keep people out of full-time care for longer, so they're cheaper.
...

This is what happens when you have a government made up of the cleverest boys and girls in the class. No common sense.

Thank you The Big Lebowski, Tacconol and Luckat. I was beginning to get disillusioned with the heartless "Balance Sheet" orientated attitudes in this forum. Hitler had a balance sheet too and he called it euthanasia - Maybe the Fianna Fail government should just come straight out and up front with ze master plan and bring out ze final solution - "Old people are costing this government too much. . lets get rid of them"

luckat

Well, I'm a wealthy plutocrat earning nearly €23,000 per year - almost double the amount that would put me out of range for the free medical card. I can afford my kindly patronising.

Run_to_da_hills

Kline wrote: »

Maybe the Fianna Fail government should just come straight out and up front with ze master plan and bring out ze final solution - "Old people are costing this government too much. . lets get rid of them"

Fiana Fail could defuse this issue by backing down on the medical card scrappage for the over 70ies and makie a secret deal with the IMO to prescribe certain drugs that will prematurely terminate the lives off the old folk. This would be a master plan and would save millions and would go virtually unnoticed.

Kline

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Fiana Fail could defuse this issue by backing down on the medical card scrappage for the over 70ies and makie a secret deal with the IMO to prescribe certain drugs that will prematurely terminate the lives off the old folk. This would be a master plan and would save millions and would go virtually unnoticed.

You might not be far off the mark. Looks like they are backing down. Problem is that pharmaceuticals are such big business - and their sales force are guess who? - Your local GP dishing out perscriptions to beat the band.

Macha

Harney has just ruled out negotiations with the IMO over doctor's pay for the medical card scheme. Now who are the real sacred cows?

Kline

Another one resigning from FF - The Ship is sinking !!!!!

RoundyMooney

Oh, I sincerely hope so

is_that_so

A councillor it appears, not a TD.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidcwgbsnau/

As for the Harney story, there are competition issues to the Govt renegotiating with IMO.

Macha

is_that_so wrote: »

A councillor it appears, not a TD.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidcwgbsnau/

As for the Harney story, there are competition issues to the Govt renegotiating with IMO.

Well how did they manage to negotiate with the pharmacists last year? Surely it's the same thing.

Kline

is_that_so wrote: »

A councillor it appears, not a TD.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidcwgbsnau/

Tomato, Tomato -

Kline

19th October 2008

Dear XXXX

Thank you for contacting me with your concerns regarding the withdrawal of the medical card for over 70’s.

It is a disgrace that the Government is looking to our old age pensioners to make €100 million savings on the health budget by abolishing the automatic entitlement of the over 70’s to medical cards. For a long time we have had a two-tier health service. This Budget decision will effectively give our pensioners a four-tier health system: some over 70’s will have medical cards, others will have GP cards, some will receive the €400 grant while others will get nothing at all.

There is genuine fear, anger and utter confusion everywhere.

The re-introduction of the means test for medical cards for over 70’s has to go down as one of the most cynical political stunts we have seen in quite some time, having been removed a year before one election, only to be re-introduced a year after another one.

Because of public outrage the Government has already made some changes to their initial budget proposals. However we will continue to fight for the principle of automatic entitlement of people over 70 to medical cards.

It has already been pointed out that the financial institutions are being bailed out by the taxpayer to the tune of the €480 billion guarantee and that the Government is only charging the financial institutions €1 billion. This is a miniscule amount.

If the Government were to even increase their charge on the banks to €1.1 billion there would be no need to take away the right of the over 70’s to the medical card.

I will be raising these issues in the Dail this week when the Budget debate continues. The Labour Party will continue to oppose this awful budget.

Yours sincerely,

Joe

JOE COSTELLO TD
Dáil Éireann
Dublin 2

Kline

If you agree, write to your local TD, you will find them below here, and urge them to put forward a "vote of no confidence" in this government.

Dublin
http://www.dublin.ie/politics/home.htm

I dont have the rest of the country.

is_that_so

taconnol wrote: »

Well how did they manage to negotiate with the pharmacists last year? Surely it's the same thing.

Doctors are classified as independent businesses.

From the Competition Authority.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1020/health.html

...

The Competition Authority has said that the Irish Medical Organisation cannot negotiate with the Government on GPs' fees to try to end the controversy over medical cards for the over 70s.

On RTÉ Radio's News at One, director of the authority's monopolies division Dr Stanley Wong said any such talks would be a breach of Irish and European competition law.
...

The_Conductor

ninty9er wrote: »

I agree with a lot of the sentiment there. BUT FOR F*CK SAKE,

can people get it inot their heads that the banks....none of them....have gotten ONE CENT from the taxpayer.

The effect of the sovereign guarantee on bank loans is their borrowing costs have been considerably reduced while the borrowing costs of the Irish government has increased. The National Treasury Management Agency will have to raise roughly 5.6 billion by April '09 along with refinancing about 28 billion before the end of 2010. Our new loans are going to cost us roughly 18 basis points more than they would otherwise have done, and refinancing our current loans roughly 13 basis points. Over the 2 year period of the bank guarantee- there will be a net cost to the tax payer of approximately 1.3 billion Euro- being the additional interest paid on national debt that would not have been incurred, had we not forwarded the loan guarantee to the banking sector. The banking sector are to pay 1 billion over the 2 years- meaning a shortfall of approx. 300 million for the taxpayer.

We may not be paying money directly to the banks- but we are paying much higher interest rates on our national debt as a result of the banking guarantees, than we would otherwise have done- thats where the money is going.......

Macha

is_that_so wrote: »

Doctors are classified as independent businesses.

From the Competition Authority.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1020/health.html

And pharmacists are not?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1020/1224279464873.html

The Minister said under existing legislation the State could negotiate on price individually with each professional. However, with more than 2,000 GPs holding contracts with the State, this was not practical.

Ms Harney proposed that a new tariff-setting body be established to get around such restrictions. She suggested that the new body could be similar to the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector.

Ms Harney last year established an independent body to examine fees for pharmacists

As I said earlier, it's a thousand times harder to take away than it is to give. FF should be cursing Bertie's vote-grabbing antics of a few years ago. And of course he's nowhere to be seen when the sh1t hits the fan.

is_that_so

taconnol wrote: »

And pharmacists are not?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1020/1224279464873.html

Dr Stanley Wong explains. Very convoluted.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1020/news1pm_av.html?2438320,null,209

Kline

is_that_so wrote: »

From the Competition Authority.

So it would seem that the government realized their mistake on the pensioners medical cards, has tried to do a u-turn and head in a different direction without doing any homework on either area.

They have walked themselves into a hole, of their own volition - Check. No wonder he's putting off going to China , he's afraid he'll be coming back to.. . .well. . . . Check Mate.

Macha

is_that_so wrote: »

Dr Stanley Wong explains. Very convoluted.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1020/news1pm_av.html?2438320,null,209

Ah! I have a headache after listening to that.

Kline

Due to public outcry Age Action Ireland is holding a public meeting on Tuesday October 21st at 11:00am, O’Callaghan Alexander Hotel, Fenian Street, Off Merrion Square, Dublin 2.

http://www.ageaction.ie/

is_that_so

taconnol wrote: »

Ah! I have a headache after listening to that.

Basically what he is saying is that the IMO cannot negotiate but the government can "consult" the IMO and doctors and anyone else they want. It's a bit like the talks about talks that was the peace process in its early days.

It might go something like this. The IMO can make noises about what they think doctors might find acceptable in those "consultations". Based on those noises the Govt. can then suggest a figure that the IMO "thinks" might not be unacceptable and doctors will miraculously come out of the woodwork, en masse, to sign up to the new system.