timberframe spec

anoble66

Hi,

I am hoping to start building within the next 2 months. 2 Storey L shape house, 2966sqft, plenty of large windows and french doors to take advantage of the sun. I want to build with timber-frame. I have around 4 more builders quotes to come in, only quote I have back so far is for 267k for builders finish. I am also considering the direct route, and I have a detailed quote back from a timber frame company and I was hoping you could offer your opinions on the spec and price etc:-

Ok, so base price for supply and errect of the frame is 52,398 inc VAT, this includes plasterboard, insulation, felt and lath. Insulation spec;d as:-

140mm frametherm 35 to external walls (u value 0.27)
100mm glass wool to internal walls
300mm glass wool to roof space (2 x 150mm cross laid)
2x65mm TP10 Kingspan to sloping ceiling areas.

For an additional 1,860e I can add Reflectashield breather and reflectatherm vapor barrier, plus 50mm timber battens...achieves a U value of 0.22...to me this seems good value?

26 x Solid Oak doors, oak architraves, doorstops = additional 7,210e (supply only)

Supply of solid Oak stairs (half turn double landing) = 4,290e

Windows & Doors = 15,120 fitted. Oak effect PVC, 28mm Pilkington K Low E Glass. We have a lot of large windows going in, and previous builder quoted 18,500 for the same spec windows from the same source so this seems a good price?

Also, the main thing at the moment is I have 12 pages of timber frame specification here but I dont really know what makes a good timber frame...can anyone offer some help as to what to look for?, also does the above sound like a good price for frame and all the extras?

Thanks

eire1977

That price doesn't seem too bad. Really would depend on the house shape and ops sizes. The bigger the opening the more timber is needed to support. I've just finished weather proofing my TF. If I was you, I'd upgrade on the insulation spec on external walls. You can do this 2 ways - increase the wall thickness thus getting more insulation in or put an insulated slab over current spec (this will also stop cold bridging)
As for what spec you should be looking for in a TF ... things like
centre distances on internal and external walls
source and grade of timber
thickness of ply
do they expect the frame to sit on finished floor?

Hope this is of help!!!

anoble66

Hi eire1977,

What thickness insulation would you recommend upgrading to on the external walls? thanks again, everything scrap of advice is useful to me

muffler

anoble66 wrote: »

everything scrap of advice is useful to me

There is loads of advice and tips in this forum if you want to have a wee trawl through it.

Have a look also at the couple of stickys at the top of the front page.

AutoCAD

anoble,

looking for other insulating materials for specifying./...

http://www.tri-isosuper10.co.uk/tri-iso_super_10_thermal_insulator_install.htm

This Insulation Material is designed to relect tempretures outside out
and inside in - with the reflective skin on each side -

Its 15mm thick last time I saw it used.

Inside the external wall panel of your timber frame
staple this to the studs at centres (400mm c/c pref)
and fir a 50x50mm batten over these stud centres.
Then fit plasterboard. the 50mm gap between the
Insulation and the slab provides a service cavity
and the gap works for the insulating properties to
retain the heat.

This on its own is the equivanent to 200mm glassfibre
quilt insulation, as per the manufacturers. Its ideal for
timber frame as you have the cavity outside and inside.
Plus, if you put the timber frame companies standard
quilt insulation outside it, you can really achieve a high
rating.

Only draw back though is cost - I think its around
the €15m2 mark. Worth it in the long run though.
Looking back now, I'm sorry I did not use it in my
own TF build 3 yrs ago.

A

sydthebeat

AutoCAD wrote: »

anoble,

looking for other insulating materials for specifying./...

http://www.tri-isosuper10.co.uk/tri-iso_super_10_thermal_insulator_install.htm

This Insulation Material is designed to relect tempretures outside out
and inside in - with the reflective skin on each side -

Its 15mm thick last time I saw it used.

Inside the external wall panel of your timber frame
staple this to the studs at centres (400mm c/c pref)
and fir a 50x50mm batten over these stud centres.
Then fit plasterboard. the 50mm gap between the
Insulation and the slab provides a service cavity
and the gap works for the insulating properties to
retain the heat.

This on its own is the equivanent to 200mm glassfibre
quilt insulation, as per the manufacturers. Its ideal for
timber frame as you have the cavity outside and inside.
Plus, if you put the timber frame companies standard
quilt insulation outside it, you can really achieve a high
rating.

Only draw back though is cost - I think its around
the €15m2 mark. Worth it in the long run though.
Looking back now, I'm sorry I did not use it in my
own TF build 3 yrs ago.

A

jesus christ !!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

autocad, are you a technician?

Op, stay away from multifoils. they do NOT do what they claim.....

heres a multifoil, that has ceritifaction, http://www.enigma-insulations.co.uk/pdf/TLXBBA.pdf

but this shows that the product MUST BE USED in conjunction with other insulations to meet minimum regulations.
If you use a product that doesnt have proper insulation you must ignore it from the point of view of certifying compliance with buildimg regulations, and also carrying out a BER assessment.
basically, its not worth the hassle...

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

jesus christ !!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

autocad, are you a technician?

Going from the content of another thread I thought he was a builder who happened to have a friend who done cheap plans at a very low cost in the west of Ireland

AutoCAD

Hi Guys,

the clients Architect specified this on a timber frame
build the year before last - http://www.actis-isolation.com/pdf/11pdf23.pdf

They used a K'Span rigid board behind the Actis
in the frame and maintained required the cavity.

Looks good and performs.

And yes we do build.

A

sydthebeat

AutoCAD wrote: »

Hi Guys,

the clients Architect specified this on a timber frame
build the year before last - http://www.actis-isolation.com/pdf/11pdf23.pdf

They used a K'Span rigid board behind the Actis
in the frame and maintained required the cavity.

Looks good and performs.

And yes we do build.

A

That makes a bit more sense, the architect used the multi foil as a (very expensive) vapour barrier.

ardara1

COMPLAINT:
Objection to a brochure for roof insulation distributed in 2005. The brochure stated "TRI-ISO SUPER 9 Insulation for roofs ... Thermally equivalent to 200 mm of mineral wool when installed in a roof situation, as certified by the European certifying body, BM TRADA CERTIFICATION (following real building trials, certification n°0101) ... THERMAL EFFICIENCY equivalent to 200 mm of mineral wool RT = 5* ... *in situ measured values." The complainant challenged:

1. the claim "Thermally equivalent to 200 mm of mineral wool" and

2. the quoted thermal resistance "RT = 5".

ADJUDICATION:
THIS ADJUDICATION REPLACES THAT FIRST PUBLISHED ON 31 MAY 2006 AND SUBSEQUENTLY WITHDRAWN ON 26 JULY 2006. THE COMPLAINTS REMAIN UPHELD BUT THE WORDING HAS CHANGED.

Actis Insulation Ltd (Actis) said they had stopped advertising TRI-ISO SUPER 9 because it had been replaced with their new product TRI-ISO SUPER 10. They said the efficiency of their products was demonstrated by their track record in the market. Actis said they had commissioned TRADA Technology Ltd to assess and report on the TRI-ISO SUPER 9 product. Its sister body, BM TRADA Ltd had certified TRI-ISO SUPER 9 on the basis of those results. They provided us with a copy of the BM TRADA Certificate dated February 2005, and Report dated August 1997, which they said substantiated their claims. They said that BM TRADA was a leading multi-sector certification body accredited by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service.

Actis explained that TRI-ISO SUPER 9 was different from traditional bulk insulation because it was a multi-foil product that used layers of reflective foils spaced with synthetic wadding and foams. They said the product required less space than traditional bulk insulation and, therefore, internal insulation cavities could be made smaller, and internal useable spaces could be enlarged without compromising efficiency of insulation.

Actis argued that traditional methods of testing were not appropriate for their product because such methods measured thermal efficiency mainly by measuring heat transfer by conduction. They said their product inhibited various methods of energy transfer including radiation and convection as well as conduction, and worked principally by reflective radiative heat. They said the effective functioning of their insulation system required installation of the sheets of multi-foil as a "sealed envelope" with taped joints between sheets, so testing of small pieces of product in a laboratory was inadequate. Actis also argued that traditional methods of testing did not allow representation of the real behaviour of building materials once installed. The test supervised by TRADA Technology had used 'in situ' testing involving a real external environment with variations in temperature, humidity, etc. The tests were carried out in Limoux in France over two months in early 1997.

They explained that the 1997 testing used two identical and adjacent chalets, one of which was lined completely with TRI-ISO SUPER 9 and the other was lined with 200 mm of mineral wool. Because the manufacturers quoted a thermal resistance of 5 m²K/W for the mineral wool and the test results showed an equivalent thermal performance in the two chalets, the report concluded that TRI-ISO SUPER 9 was "thermally equivalent to 200 mm of mineral wool" and had a thermal resistance of 5 m²K/W. Actis therefore maintained that the BM TRADA Certification demonstrated the thermal efficiency of their product and provided proof of their claims.

1. Complaint upheld
The ASA obtained expert advice. We understood that the 1997 testing had not tried to measure the thermal resistance of TRI-ISO SUPER 9 directly, but had compared the measured energy consumption and internal temperatures in a chalet lined with TRI-ISO SUPER 9 with those in a similar chalet lined with 200 mm of mineral wool. The TRADA report stated that the construction method of both test chalets was representative of real buildings. We noted that both insulation systems were installed in the test chalets without a tiling underlay between the insulation and the ventilated space under the roof tiles, and with no internal plasterboard lining to the interior. Actis argued that the use of underlay and plasterboard was not common in France in 1997, but we understood that a tiling underlay and a plasterboard lining were used in most real buildings and noted that both the underlay and the plasterboard lining featured in the brochure for TRI-ISO SUPER 9 and the BM TRADA Certificate for TRI-ISO SUPER 9. Because there was no tiling underlay and no plasterboard lining, air would penetrate the mineral wool from the outside, and to a lesser extent, from the inside degrading its thermal performance. In addition we noted that care was taken to seal the joints between the pieces of TRI-ISO SUPER 9, which in itself was completely airtight, so as to eliminate air infiltration in the chalet that contained TRI-ISO SUPER 9. According to the TRADA report and the photographs annexed to it, the joints between the pieces of mineral wool in the second chalet were left open, which would lead to some ventilation in that chalet. Actis produced recent statements suggesting that TRADA were aware of the problem at the time and had directed Actis employees to seal the joints, and that this had been done, but there was no evidence in the contemporaneous documentation that that had been done. We concluded Actis had not substantiated the claim. We noted the ad was no longer appearing, but told Actis not to make claims in future advertising unless they held sufficient substantiation at the time of publication.

2. Complaint upheld
We understood that RT was a symbol of total thermal resistance and typically had the standard unit of measurement of m²K/W. We noted that the claim "RT=5" was not qualified by any recognised units of measurement e.g. m²K/W and a small footnote stated only 'in situ' measured values" without further explanation. While a professional trade reader would probably not be misled by this omission, Actis agreed to include a unit of measurement in future. We noted that the TRADA Technology report did specify an overall resistance (RT) of 5.0 m²K/W derived from the "in situ" testing. Because heat loss in the chalet with TRI-ISO SUPER 9 was by transfer through the fabric, whereas heat loss in the chalet with mineral wool was from a combination of fabric transfer and air penetration (see 1 above), we considered that it was not possible to compare accurately the thermal resistance in the two test chalets. On the other hand, the ASA's expert considered that it was possible to estimate the thermal resistance for the well sealed TRI-ISO SUPER 9 chalet, from the data recorded there, as being between 1.6 and 1.8 m²K/W, not 5 m²K/W. Even if, as Actis argued it was not possible to estimate an actual RT value from the data for that chalet alone, it was clear to us that the report did not substantiate the claim "RT=5". We noted the ad was no longer appearing, but told Actis not to make claims in future advertising unless they held sufficient substantiation at the time of publication.

Mellor

AutoCAD wrote: »

anoble,

looking for other insulating materials for specifying./...

http://www.tri-isosuper10.co.uk/tri-iso_super_10_thermal_insulator_install.htm

This Insulation Material is designed to relect tempretures outside out
and inside in - with the reflective skin on each side -

Its 15mm thick last time I saw it used.

Inside the external wall panel of your timber frame
staple this to the studs at centres (400mm c/c pref)
and fir a 50x50mm batten over these stud centres.
Then fit plasterboard. the 50mm gap between the
Insulation and the slab provides a service cavity
and the gap works for the insulating properties to
retain the heat.

This on its own is the equivanent to 200mm glassfibre
quilt insulation, as per the manufacturers. Its ideal for
timber frame as you have the cavity outside and inside.
Plus, if you put the timber frame companies standard
quilt insulation outside it, you can really achieve a high
rating.

Only draw back though is cost - I think its around
the €15m2 mark. Worth it in the long run though.
Looking back now, I'm sorry I did not use it in my
own TF build 3 yrs ago.

A

Those products are marketed in a very misleading fashion.
This is evident from Adara's post above (the parts in red are very important).
But also in the fact that you champion the fact that they " relect tempretures outside out
and inside in", this is physically impossible. Temperatures are relative for a start. And there temperatures don't move, heat does. Cold doesn't. Cold doesn't come in through a wall, ever. Heat goes out. (before somebody gets pedantic, air infiltration and convection are different as they are displaced).

Long story short, those products are very obscure in their marketing.
Most people in industry debunked them straight away, If you search here, you will see that we announced these facts a long time ago. Nearly the whole industry has caught up now

Basically that is an insulated vapour barrier*
If there marketed themselves as one of that from the start, they would of far better (as an identical product)


*I just though of insulated vapour barrier there, I nearby copyright it