New business logo

Caoimhín

Hi all.

Im starting up my own business in an industry which i have a related degree and over 10 years experience. I feel its time to start up on my own instead of making hundreds of thousands for employers who buy themselves Mercs and Italian villas on the back of my sweat and tears.

I have the company name registered, vat number and professional indemnity insurance sorted.

My next step is marketing and in particular designing a logo. I have a few ideas in mind but there is a catch. Now this query may be for the legal forum, but i want to include a harp in some way or form in the logo.

Does anyone know if this is allowed since Guinness and the Irish state use the harp as a logo, (Guinness harp is left to right where as the state harp is right to left, if you know what i mean).

Any thoughts or advice is very much welcome.

Regards,

Caoimhin.

keefg

I registered my own company logo with the Patents office in Kilkenny and (it was a while ago) but I'm sure there was something in the paperwork about your logo couldn't even slightly resemble something already used by a state body.

http://www.patentsoffice.ie/en/homepage.aspx

You should give them a buzz, they are really helpful there.

Caoimhín

keefg wrote: »

I registered my own company logo with the Patents office in Kilkenny and (it was a while ago) but I'm sure there was something in the paperwork about your logo couldn't even slightly resemble something already used by a state body.

http://www.patentsoffice.ie/en/homepage.aspx

You should give them a buzz, they are really helpful there.

Cheers keefg, i kinda thought that because it may suggest an accociation with the State. By the way, do you know of any graphic designers who might be able to help out on the design? Did you use anyone or did you craw one up yourself?

Thanks,

Caoibhin.

jetsonx

oh no! Another entrepreneur who worries about their logo!

Designing a logo for a business is the fun, and fluffy part of business that gives every budding entrepreneur a small ego-boost that this is their logo or stamp of their future empire!

No offence OP, but a logo for new start-up company is not important at all. Micheal O'Leary did not spend hours fretting over a logo for Ryanair. Ditto for Sam Walton of Wal-Mart fame. They were all basic simple logos.That is all you need. I never heard a sucessful owner of a start-up say the reason for sucess was a "well-designed logo"

The real value of a start-up business will be built by quality strategic thinking, a good finanicial director, excellent execution of that strategy, worn shoe leather, blood and sweat NOT a logo done up on Photoshop!

dahamsta

jetsonx is right, but to answer your question, just make sure it doesn't look too like an existing logo. Walter Wynne is the guy I work with for graphic design, but he just got married so he could still be on honeymoon, in which case give Gaz Edmunds a tinkle.

adam

Caoimhín

jetsonx wrote: »

oh no! Another entrepreneur who worries about their logo!

Designing a logo for a business is the fun, and fluffy part of business that gives every budding entrepreneur a small ego-boost that this is their logo or stamp of their future empire!

No offence OP, but a logo for new start-up company is not important at all. Micheal O'Leary did not spend hours fretting over a logo for Ryanair. Ditto for Sam Walton of Wal-Mart fame. They were all basic simple logos.That is all you need. I never heard a successful owner of a start-up say the reason for success was a "well-designed logo"

The real value of a start-up business will be built by quality strategic thinking, a good financial director, excellent execution of that strategy, worn shoe leather, blood and sweat NOT a logo done up on Photoshop!

Ha, cheers Jetsonx, your absolutely right. But as a start up business where i know my target market, the format of the logo is vital. Its a forestry company so my primary market will be the farming community so i need to come up with a logo that reassures potential clients that they are dealing with a local/irish company. If only i could call the company GAA Forestry, id be on the pigs back.

Your dead right about the shoe leather, blood, sweat and execution of strategy is the recipe for success in any business. Im not planning on global domination or being the next Richard Branson but the presentation of my advertisement and recognizability of a simple "friendly" logo is a very important step. Remember, i will not be dealing with corporate clients or blue-chip companies but small farmers in rural areas.

I plan on putting up a sign on the roadside of any site i developed so the logo/company brand has to be recognisable to a passing car.

I might check with the logo registration in Kilkenny before i go any further with this.

PS..
Anyone know of any farmers/landowners who would like to avail of premiums of up to €400 per hectare for 20 years tax free?

*Sorry for the pimping, but one can not live on love alone*

jetsonx

"I've past your're sign hundreds of times. I did'nt know what the sign was all about"

Jetsonx's vision of what your target market (farmers) will think.

Caoibhin, A fancy logo alone will not sell any product or service - believe me. Here is what I would do. Get a simple memorable domain name and put that on your sign. Thats all - one simple domain name. This will arouse curiosity and get your website some hits. If you wanted to you could use a domain name and a tagline summing up in one line what your business does. Words sell better than any logos.

No pun intented, but you have to see the wood from the trees here!

Caoimhín

jetsonx wrote: »

"I've past your're sign hundreds of times. I did'nt know what the sign was all about"

Jetsonx's vision of what your target market (farmers) will think.

Caoibhin, A fancy logo alone will not sell any product or service - believe me. Here is what I would do. Get a simple memorable domain name and put that on your sign. Thats all - one simple domain name. This will arouse curiosity and get your website some hits. If you wanted to you could use a domain name and a tagline summing up in one line what your business does. Words sell better than any logos.

No pun intended, but you have to see the wood from the trees here!

Right, but like i said, i know my market and to be honest, most farmers are just about getting to terms with mobile phones never mind PC's and d'internet. I am dealing with people who view technology with the suspicion usually reserved for witches in the 18th century.

Yes i am in the process of setting up a website aimed at investors and i have sent out correspondence to the major life assurance companies and charities.

Just as a side topic. Im doing a part time M.Sc in renewable energy and carbon sequestration and trading. I truly believe this is the way forward for the energy crisis that our little island will have to face up to in the next decade.

Are you in business development yourself jetsonx? If so id appreciate some advice if you have the time. (i wouldn't expect it for free either),

Oh, and i agree about the waste of time in a ego boosting, fluffy logo. I have always thought myself that a logo/sign should be clear, concise and with a simple contact phone number and web-site address.

Darragh29

caoibhin wrote: »

Hi all.

Im starting up my own business in an industry which i have a related degree and over 10 years experience. I feel its time to start up on my own instead of making hundreds of thousands for employers who buy themselves Mercs and Italian villas on the back of my sweat and tears.

I have the company name registered, vat number and professional indemnity insurance sorted.

My next step is marketing and in particular designing a logo. I have a few ideas in mind but there is a catch. Now this query may be for the legal forum, but i want to include a harp in some way or form in the logo.

Does anyone know if this is allowed since Guinness and the Irish state use the harp as a logo, (Guinness harp is left to right where as the state harp is right to left, if you know what i mean).

Any thoughts or advice is very much welcome.

Regards,

Caoimhin.

Fair play to you Caoimhin. You can put a harp in your logo without legal hassle.

Caoimhín

Darragh29 wrote: »

Fair play to you Caoimhin. You can put a harp in your logo without legal hassle.

Thanks Darragh, are you sure about that? I think i remember Guinness taking legal action over infringement of trademark a few years ago.

My biggest problem right now is capital for advertisement and professional indemnity insurance.

Any idea if there are any grants/tax breaks for start up business? Im looking into the Enterprise board at the moment but they arent too keen on sole traders..

Trump

caoibhin wrote: »

Right, but like i said, i know my market and to be honest, most farmers are just about getting to terms with mobile phones never mind PC's and d'internet. I am dealing with people who view technology with the suspicion usually reserved for witches in the 18th century.

Yes i am in the process of setting up a website aimed at investors and i have sent out correspondence to the major life assurance companies and charities.

Just as a side topic. Im doing a part time M.Sc in renewable energy and carbon sequestration and trading. I truly believe this is the way forward for the energy crisis that our little island will have to face up to in the next decade.

Are you in business development yourself jetsonx? If so id appreciate some advice if you have the time. (i wouldn't expect it for free either),

Oh, and i agree about the waste of time in a ego boosting, fluffy logo. I have always thought myself that a logo/sign should be clear, concise and with a simple contact phone number and web-site address.

You have sent out information already to potential customers. What logo did you use for the correspondence..?

First impression are everything in business.You only get one chance.

Caoimhín

Trump wrote: »

You have sent out information already to potential customers. What logo did you use for the correspondence..?

First impression are everything in business.You only get one chance.

i used a logo not unlike the UK forestry commission;

Native Irish Woodlands Ltd

What do you think lads?

Bandara

http://www.legalline.ie/

€2.90 a minute and you'll have your answer

Caoimhín

Hammertime wrote: »

http://www.legalline.ie/

€2.90 a minute and you'll have your answer

Cheers Hammertime, but its a bit pricey. At the moment im begging and borrowing to get started. I have already talked to my neighbour who is an accountant and my next step is to talk to a cousin of mine who is a solicitor.

By the way, can anyone recommend a graphic design company in Dublin/North East area?

Thanks again for all your help lads.

Bandara

caoibhin wrote: »

Cheers Hammertime, but its a bit pricey. At the moment im begging and borrowing to get started. I have already talked to my neighbour who is an accountant and my next step is to talk to a cousin of mine who is a solicitor.

By the way, can anyone recommend a graphic design company in Dublin/North East area?

Thanks again for all your help lads.

Sorry? Its a bit pricey? Its TWO EURO NINETY CENTS a minute, your going to ask one question and get a response that will probably take two minutes.

Thats about €8. If you think thats pricey then there's no point you even looking to speak to a graphic designer b efore you even know if you can use a harp.

forbairt

A logo is going to set you back anywhere from 20 quid to 20,000 depending on who you go to and what you're getting. If you're approaching a professional design agency you're probably looking at having them do up a professional corporate identity type package for you its going to run to a couple of hundred at least.

Bluefoam

forbairt wrote: »

A logo is going to set you back anywhere from 20 quid to 20,000 depending on who you go to and what you're getting. If you're approaching a professional design agency you're probably looking at having them do up a professional corporate identity type package for you its going to run to a couple of hundred at least.

Always hire a professional where required. You wouldn't act as your own solicitor/barrister unless you had the right skills, so don't do the work of a designer without the right skills.

Poor identity can & will negatively effect your business.

The OP wants to offer his services for a fee, because he feels they are valuable & feels that others are incapable of offering those services at a similar standard. Well therefore he should respect the role of the graphic designer/brand consultant & get the job done properly.

BTW there is a lot of value out there at the moment for professional fees...

You would probably pay more in a year for waste charges than you would spend on a branding excerise that will last years. + the positive effects of good branding are immense, mainly it will set you aside as a professional as opposed to a one man band which may be recognised as offering no security to the client.

Sonnenblumen

Bluefoam wrote: »

Always hire a professional where required. You wouldn't act as your own solicitor/barrister unless you had the right skills, so don't do the work of a designer without the right skills.

Poor identity can & will negatively effect your business.

The OP wants to offer his services for a fee, because he feels they are valuable & feels that others are incapable of offering those services at a similar standard. Well therefore he should respect the role of the graphic designer/brand consultant & get the job done properly.

BTW there is a lot of value out there at the moment for professional fees...

You would probably pay more in a year for waste charges than you would spend on a branding excerise that will last years. + the positive effects of good branding are immense, mainly it will set you aside as a professional as opposed to a one man band which may be recognised as offering no security to the client.

Well a logo is only but a small but important aspect within a coherent umbrella brand or corporate identity which depending on theb scope of a business eg international bank, is a very complex environment presenting opportunities but also with many challenges for the graphic environment alone. In such cases yes the logo etc is a enormous undertaking and can literally run up to millions when you include implementation costs.

However I suspect the OP's reqwuirements are not as diverse or complex. That said it is always wise to use professionals, it might cost more, but you'll probably achieve better results short and longer terms (but there's no guarantee). On the otherhand, a cheap logo is potentially very expensive, if after implementation costs are factored in, it fails to achieve objectives.

A further complication is how to distinguish an amateurs approach form that of a professional? Creativity is one aspect, costs also, but understanding the client's environment or more importantly the client's competitive environment is essential if success is achieved.

My advice is to seek out a professional who can demonstrate relevant experience and success with projects of similar requirements. Pay whatever the costs (having qualified them before hand), because it will most likely realise your aspirations.

A`logo is much more than just a memorable graphic icon, and to see as such is to patently overlook the marketplace. Many designers fail at this basic hurdle, because they fail to embrace the fundamentals of market intelligence.

Sorry for going on but it might help you or others.

Sonnenblumen

caoibhin wrote: »

i used a logo not unlike the UK forestry commission;

Native Irish Woodlands Ltd

What do you think lads?

Noithing particualrly native and why use a similar logo that is probably registered? Passing off or plagiarism would reflect very poorly on the imitator and could also lead to more serious consequences.

Generic icons might be fine, but did you not consider depicting some native tree(s)? I'm not sure if there are any suitable types that could be considered native, but still a graphic outline/silhouette of common trees found in Ireland might still be better than a generic Pine/Broadleaf.

Caoimhín

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Noithing particualrly native and why use a similar logo that is probably registered? Passing off or plagiarism would reflect very poorly on the imitator and could also lead to more serious consequences.

Generic icons might be fine, but did you not consider depicting some native tree(s)? I'm not sure if there are any suitable types that could be considered native, but still a graphic outline/silhouette of common trees found in Ireland might still be better than a generic Pine/Broadleaf.

Very true, im thinking maybe a majestic Oak tree with a Harpset behind it, what do you think? Then maybe the name of the company in English at the botton and in the Old Irish writing above it.

Bluefoam

BTW. The OP may only need business card, letter head, invoice. There are costs in setting these up and printing properly. But worth it IMO. I too am involved in a small operation where overheads are kept low. But some things are necessary.

niceirishfella

Hi,

Logo's ehhhhhhhhhhhhh, well - they are important as they are FRONT OF HOUSE 24/7 in your business - its you're corporate identity and its worth while taking some time to get it right.
But i would'nt doss over it for AGES! get it done, and then get on with the more pressing stuff - !

Suggestion - do a contest on www.99designs.com or www.denook.com (this one is cheaper). Just pop up your brief, start the contest and watch the entires from freelance designers roll in from all over the world.

I got a very nice design logo done for $125 and $40 to set up the contest on 99designs.com
I got over 25 entries and 10 of which were brilliant and i was able to feed them all feedback to get the logo tweeked to perfection.
All you need to do is write a good brief and try and get your desires/needs explained in the brief.
Be sure to put in the brief that you want the winning logo design emailed to you in PSD (Photoshop), PNG (large version) and EPS.
The vector files would be great too, for use when printing.
You can pay the winner by paypal - totally safe.
Best of luck anyways.

Rgds,
NIF.

Sonnenblumen

caoibhin wrote: »

Very true, im thinking maybe a majestic Oak tree with a Harpset behind it, what do you think? Then maybe the name of the company in English at the botton and in the Old Irish writing above it.

I think you missed the point, so try harder and if you can, be original!

DubTony

forbairt wrote: »

A logo is going to set you back anywhere from 20 quid to 20,000 depending on who you go to and what you're getting. If you're approaching a professional design agency you're probably looking at having them do up a professional corporate identity type package for you its going to run to a couple of hundred at least.

I'd go for the 20 quid option myself. Here's a fellah who didn't put much thought or money into his logo. And the (€) euro symbol was "invented" by an EU civil servant doodling at his desk.

Bluefoam

DubTony wrote: »

Here's a fellah who didn't put much thought or money into his logo.

???

Caoimhín

Mmmmm, you know, it crossed my mind to eh... mimic a logo of a well known multinational. The ensuing kerfuffle would attract a bit of media exposure. Any publicity is good publicity right?

What do yous think?

jetsonx

Headlines of Wall Street Journal

"Small Irish Forestry Start-up Copies Logo of Starbucks"


Today, shares in Starbucks plummeted after a small start-up company in the West of Ireland.....


Meanwhile, back in the real world -

Not newsworthy I'm afraid. All you would get would be an email from a junior in their legal dept. "advising" you to change your logo...

DubTony

Bluefoam wrote: »

???

OK. How's this

Bluefoam

DubTony wrote: »

OK. How's this

Do you know that no money was spent on that logo - or are you just speculating because you don't like it?

jetsonx

jetsonx wrote: »

Headlines of Wall Street Journal

"Small Irish Forestry Start-up Copies Logo of Starbucks"


Today, shares in Starbucks plummeted after a small start-up company in the West of Ireland.....


Meanwhile, back in the real world -

Not newsworthy I'm afraid. All you would get would be an email from a junior in their legal dept. "advising" you to change your logo...

I agree

lanod2407

Agree with niceirishfella - you need to get it done without spending too much time on it.
I had 9 different ideas from my designer and was prevaricating over 3 of them ............ this stuff can suck up your time and send you into tailspin very fast.
I visited the designer and told him "by 11 am we're going to have the logo finalised so we can move on to the next thing". And we did - but only because I decided I wasn't leaving until it was done.

It should (imo) -
- reflect your business to some degree
- be coloured in a way that can be matched into other print / web stuff
- reflect the quality of your product / service.

Greens can be hard on the eye if it's matched into, say, a lot of content on a website. Light blues and yellows scream cheap - Ryanair.
Dark blues and purples can signify quality and luxury - Cadbury's wrappers.

I like the idea of the design competition - that way you get lots of diverse inputs from different sources, instead of 10 potential variants on the same theme from one guys.


Best of Luck

newwifey

I too am in the process of setting up an ecommerce store and recently got our logo designed.

We went with some of the web based companies initially, think it was 25pound logo or something, but what we got back was dreadful. Seriously my 10 year old would de better.

After making a few phone calls to established companies in Ireland most quoted €80 to €100 per hour for design work so we decided to make sure we had a fair idea of what we wanted as a logo before we commenced.

We scoured websites like istockphoto and shutterstock for illustrations that we liked. Eventually we narrowed it down to one single design and instructed the graphic designer on the exact changes we required.

We went with a company based in Naas called www.creativestate.ie and were eventually happy with the outcome. It took a good bit of tweaking but the results were good.

Keep and eye on their web site they do monthly special offers on business cards, flyers etc.

dahamsta

Wired did a review of some of the web-based companies a few years ago, outdated now of course but it might be useful as an overview.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.10/start.html?pg=13

adam

DubTony

Bluefoam wrote: »

Do you know that no money was spent on that logo - or are you just speculating because you don't like it?

Actually I don't dislike the logo. In fact, it's as recognisable as any in the country, and at the end of the day that's the most important thing. From what I've heard, Sean Quinn isn't the type of man to spend money on frivolous unnecessary "trinkets" like a fancy corporate logo.

Here's the new updated version. Hardly a masterpiece, but does all thats required.

The point I'm making is that start-ups don't necessarily need to spend chunks of investment / working capital on logos. There are many financial pressures on a new business and getting fancy and spending tons of cash on a logo instead of using the money in moving the business on is not very smart and is no guarantee of success or even recognition.

heggie

spec work contests will get you a load of generic results from amateur designers. Spend the money if you value your image, it will be worth it in the long run.

niceirishfella

heggie wrote: »

spec work contests will get you a load of generic results from amateur designers. Spend the money if you value your image, it will be worth it in the long run.

Fair comment Heggie, tho' to balance it i would say that some "up and coming" very talented young designers enter design work on 99designs.com and denook.com too.
Just because they are starting out does'nt mean that the talent in not in their DNA - cos' in my experience - it is.

Its all about the brief you lay out too - you've really got to articulate and paint a picture to them of what you desire, this is key!
For a modest outlay -its worth it and if you don't get the design you want out of it - well you're not out much outlay wise. :P

Caoimhín

Thanks for all the advice people,
. Ive been in contct with a graphic designer and shes going to work something for me. I had a little look myself today and came up with a few ideas.

[Jackass]

The logo symbol is not "owned" by anyone and is free for use. If you want to style it on something, style it on the Harp of Leinster / Ireland.

This was used commercialy for years by Leinster rugby, but they designed their own logo for reasons outlined below.

My point is, take that harp and incorporate it into your own design (which you can then copyright) and you are basing it on a public property. As have Leinster Rugby, Guinness, etc. etc. ....(Plus as you're not in the same line of business as these people there is no direct conflict.)

In 2005 Leinster Rugby re-branded which saw the introduction of a new stylised harp logo. With the old logo, which Leinster Rugby had no copyright on, Leinster’s brand, intellectual property, and merchandise was largely unprotected. The new logo incorporates the traditional harp which represents the province with a rugby ball which makes it specific to Leinster Rugby and it is used in various formats and colours. It is fully copyright protected and is popular among supporters and can be seen on the wide range of Leinster merchandise which is available.