Most expensive road schemes

Chris_533976

Ok one thing thats never really talked about on this forum is the cost of various schemes.

Do we have much actual cost information, ie: the total amount that a scheme will cost overall??


Reason I ask is that I've heard rumours that the New Ross bypass may cost €1 billion, which seemed utterly ridiculous.

Sponge Bob

The Most Expensive Project is the M50 Upgrade comprising the Westlink Purchase and E-Flowing and Widening at about €1.8bn for the lot if the state had to pay for it in one go . Some is a PPP or multi annual workout instead.

New Ross Bypass is Estimated at €315m at the hearing this year , it kicks off from elevated rock meaning that a complex tower is not required on the west side.

It is a much smaller ( shorter) project than the Waterford bypass but with a longer bridge. The Waterford bypass would have cost €600m in 2006 if it wasn't a PPP. That information is here .

The Limerick Tunnel and Galway - Ballinasloe would be near enough the same cost as Waterford if not PPP schemes.

€1bn is a ridiculous number , it simply must have come from a Dublin builder

Lennoxschips

315 million for a bypass of New Ross? Is it paved with gold?

It might be cheaper to rebuild New Ross somewhere else and just leave the road where it is.

A Dub in Glasgo

Most people seem to ignore the cost of road building!

The most expensive I have seen here in Britain is the M74 extension through Glasgow. Almost £700m (€905m) for a 5 mile extension!

Chris_533976

Someone has been lieing their heads off

http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/recession-will-not-affect-essential-road-projects-1500224.html

http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/bypass-funds-are-safe-1500239.html

THE ECONOMIC downturn will not affect the viability of Wexford's major infrastructural projects including the €1 billion New Ross bypass, despite them relying on Public Private Partnerships (PPPs).

Useless heap of a paper.

BluntGuy

Could somebody please tell me exactly what's going on with the New Ross bypass. There doesn't seem to be any real sources of information. The website is... well... ancient. The newspaper articles don't give any concrete information either...

Does anybody know what's actually going on?

Hotblack Desiato

Presumably that in Glasgow included some fairly expensive compulsory purchase orders.

Chris_533976

BluntGuy wrote: »

Could somebody please tell me exactly what's going on with the New Ross bypass. There doesn't seem to be any real sources of information. The website is... well... ancient. The newspaper articles don't give any concrete information either...

Does anybody know what's actually going on?

An Bord Pleanalas decision on the CPO and scheme was due back in April but got delayed several times, the most recent date being the 7th October. Still nothing. Theres still a lot of arguing going on about it, but it looks reasonably likely to be granted.

Whether it'll be built or not I dont know, its certainly not very far down the 'we would like to build this' list.

Bards

Chris_533976 wrote: »

An Bord Pleanalas decision on the CPO and scheme was due back in April but got delayed several times, the most recent date being the 7th October. Still nothing. Theres still a lot of arguing going on about it, but it looks reasonably likely to be granted.

Whether it'll be built or not I dont know, its certainly not very far down the 'we would like to build this' list.

According to http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/another-delay-in-bypass-decision-1500246.html the new date for a decision is to be made by Tuesday, November 11.

As far as I recall it is going to be a PPP but with a shadow toll instead of a hard toll

Chris_533976

Thats some lazy ass journalism

From that site -

The N25 New Ross Bypass comprises the construction of a bypass of the town from Jamestown to Ballymacar. A further link is also proposed from the junction of the N25 at Ballymacar to the N30 in the townsland of Knockroe to the North East of New Ross.

The scheme incorporates a new crossing of the River Barrow between Pink Point to the west and Stokestown to the east.

From the NRA website -

The proposed scheme comprises the construction of an N25 bypass of New Ross from the townland of Jamestown, west of New Ross, County Kilkenny to the townland of Ballymacar east of New Ross, County Wexford, A further link is also proposed from the junction of the N25 at Ballymacar to the N30 in the townsland of Knockroe to the North East of New Ross.

The scheme incorporates a new crossing of the River Barrow between Pink Point to the west and Stokestown to the east.

Lennoxschips

"Field of Dreams" just finished on RTE2.

If you build it, they will come.

Perhaps that's the logic behind this massive scheme. Insanity.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Thats some lazy ass journalism

I know...

Still it was enlightning. Thanks to the article, I have found out that a DECISION on the fate of the New Ross Bypass, which was due to be decided upon last Tuesday, has yet again been put back.

An Bord Pleanala have again revised the decision date on this major infrastructural project and are now due to make their decision on Tuesday, November 11.

There are 28 parties involved in the case, including 26 objectors, An Taisce as an observer and Wexford County Council as the local authority.

Oral Hearings into the bypass Compulsory Purchase Orders were heard in the Horse and Hound at the beginning of April.


See! Proof that I can be even lazier than THEM!

cjpm

€1bn for M20 Cork to Limerick apperently!!

Public display of Preffered Corridor this week in 5 locations

BluntGuy

One billion...

I think we may be looking at three letters here...

PPP

loyatemu

Bards wrote: »

According to http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/another-delay-in-bypass-decision-1500246.html the new date for a decision is to be made by Tuesday, November 11.

As far as I recall it is going to be a PPP but with a shadow toll instead of a hard toll

so whats the story there - the govt pays a toll to the operator based on usage?

essentially we're borrowing the money to build the thing from the operator, but it doesn't count as borrowing? is that the reason for doing it like this....

New Ross is a pain in the ass, once this is built (along with the Waterford bypass) it will make a good alternative route for anyone going from sth dublin or wicklow to Cork.

Lennoxschips

you'd be mad to drive from south dublin to cork like that

that's no justification for the size of the bypass

loyatemu

Lennoxschips wrote: »

you'd be mad to drive from south dublin to cork like that

depends - if you were going from Shankill to Youghal or Midleton, distance is slightly shorter via the N11 than the N7. Main disincentive is going through NewRoss, Waterford and (to a lesser extent) Enniscorthy. Once they're bypassed, there'd be very little in it.

Bards

loyatemu wrote: »

essentially we're borrowing the money to build the thing from the operator, but it doesn't count as borrowing? is that the reason for doing it like this.....

exactly, moves the money from Capital expenditure (Capex) to day-to-day expenditure with no upfront cost.

Lennoxschips

loyatemu wrote: »

depends - if you were going from Shankill to Youghal or Midleton, distance is slightly shorter via the N11 than the N7. Main disincentive is going through NewRoss, Waterford and (to a lesser extent) Enniscorthy. Once they're bypassed, there'd be very little in it.

There's no denying New Ross needs a bypass, I've often driven from Rosslare to Cork. But it doesn't need the mega-bypass that's being proposed.

Having said that, how many people are driving from Shankill to Youghal? Tough titty for them, let them drive the few kilometres extra to the N7.

Zoney

Is it not due to the need for good transport connections between Cork and Rosslare (for trucks) that the intent is for DC along the N25 and N30?

Lennoxschips

I've driven that road many a time and it doesn't have anything near the amount of traffic to justify a DC. And never will. There aren't many trucks on it either, to be honest.

There's a difference between good transport connections (a decent New Ross bypass) and wasting public money (the current proposal).

gjim

Bards wrote: »

exactly, moves the money from Capital expenditure (Capex) to day-to-day expenditure with no upfront cost.

With the huge problem that private sector cost of finance is at least 10% - possibly much more in the current climate - while the cost of government supplying the finance is less than 4%.

What does this mean in the real world? If the government is prepared to pay 100 million a year for 30 years to a private company to provide the finance, you get 900 million worth of infrastructure. If the government finances the project themselves from the bond market you get 1.7 billion worth of infrastructure.

So why use PPP given the stark bad value? Answer: politics and dodgy accounting. A commitment to spend 1.7 billion appears in the current budget even if funded by borrowing; a PPP scheme means only 100 million appears in the current budget. Better again, you get all the glory for providing the infrastructure even though it's future politicians who are saddled with the yearly bill.

It's like buying a car on hire purchase (where the finance costs 20% APR) instead of organising a bank loan (at 12% APR). These schemes have been proven over and over to provide the terrible value but the above mentioned political attractions make them irresistable to politicians.

For once the lefties are right concerning the rotten value PPP provides. However the solution isn't to ignore the private sector; instead maximising value for the public is achieved by government borrowing and then competitive tender for design, build and maintenance with periodic payments.

Alesi27

You are reading the wrong paper. The New Ross Echo always has the news before The New Ross Standard. While The Standard quoted from the NRA website The Echo actually contacted Brian Lenihan and got him to commit to saying the by-pass in New Ross will not be affected and will go ahead as planned.
If an announcement is made in November it is still not a guarantee that the by-pass will go ahead on time and on budget because of the way the Government do their u-turns.

Zoney

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I've driven that road many a time and it doesn't have anything near the amount of traffic to justify a DC. And never will. There aren't many trucks on it either, to be honest.

There's a difference between good transport connections (a decent New Ross bypass) and wasting public money (the current proposal).

Well, to be perfectly frank, your anecdotal experiences aren't what dictates transport policy. And indeed current traffic levels are not the sole factor either - the current state of the route, strategic importance, planned increase in traffic, percentage of HGVs, etc. all are factors.

Lennoxschips

What is the "planned increase" in traffic? When in the future will the amount of traffic bypassing New Ross justify a four lane bypass? What is the percentage of HGVs on the road? How is a massive New Ross bypass of strategic national importance?

What would the Germans do?

As for the current state of the road, with the exception of the bit through New Ross itself, and the approach into Waterford city, the N25 between Waterford and Rosslare is one of the finest two lane roads in the country, with good sight lines, wide lanes and wide hard shoulders. Vast stretches of this recently upgraded road would be made obsolete by an overly long and much too large four lane bypass. Why?!

They should just build a normal bridge slightly downstream from New Ross. Job done.

invincibleirish

100% agree with Lennoxchips. a gold plated DC for a town of 7k is not a sensible option in these times of economic prudence.

Beyond Gorey the N11 has relatively light traffic(7-9k AADT according to the NRA counters at Gorey) New Ross is an awful bottleneck but lets be realistic all it needs is a bypass of any type. the N11 from Gorey to Rosslare is not a major route, despite the best efforts of the semi states & me feiner Politicians over the years to turn Rosslare into some kind of Rotterdam light it isnt of national importance.

the proposed NR bypass is the worst example of the governments transport policy for the past 10 years, a massively over spec expensive project when a simple solution will suffice for now and the immediate future.

Build a bridge and with the money saved use that to advance other more deserving urgent road projects like oh i dont know Newlands X upgrade, or the Cork SRR upgrades......

Chris_533976

I realise it'll be a hugely overexpensive and overspecced project, but I really want to see that bridge

Hotblack Desiato

BluntGuy wrote: »

One billion...

I think we may be looking at three letters here...

PPP

I was expecting PFO

mysterious

Well I don't mind the Rosslare bypass going ahead it is needed, but I still can't get my head around the cost of it:eek:

Can't they not just build it in phases, or at least build the bridge with 4 lanes and leave the latter of it S2? I'm sure that would make some difference in costs?

naughtyeskimo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Most people seem to ignore the cost of road building!

The most expensive I have seen here in Britain is the M74 extension through Glasgow. Almost £700m (€905m) for a 5 mile extension!

Part of the reason for the high cost of the M74 is due to 35,000t worth of steel box girders...

dmeehan

Bards wrote:

As far as I recall it is going to be a PPP but with a shadow toll instead of a hard toll

what is a shadow/hard toll?

Bards

dmeehan wrote: »

what is a shadow/hard toll?

Hard toll is where there is a toll plaza/gantra and the driver has to pay either through coinage or electronically via tags etc.

Shadow toll is where the govt gives the toll operator cash according to vehicle usage