Novice / Intermediate Status

Domer

Can anybody give me a definitive answer on the following:

1. What constitutes a Novice?

2. What constitutes an intermediate?

3. Once you loose either status, do you get it back after a lapse of number of years?

Thanks,
Domer

Racing Flat

Starting off, you are elligible to run Novice, Intermediate or Senior. If you come 1st 2nd or 3rd individually, or are one of the scorers on the 1st team (as in an AAI affiliated club) in a Novice cross country you are no longer elligible for Novice at that 'area' level (county, provincial, or National, see below). So you can run Intermediate or Senior. If you are 1,2,3 individual or 1st team in Intermediate you are no longer elligible for Intermediate, so have only Senior left. You can always run Senior.

If you are rendered inelligible by doing above at the County Novice race, you can still run Provinical and National Novice, and all Intermediate and Senior. If you are rendered inelligible for Provinical Novice, you can do National Novice and all Intermediate and Senior and so on.

So if you raced your first race ever and it was Leinster Intermediate, you came last but your club team-mates came 1st, 2nd and 3rd and you were the fourth scorer so you got the team Gold, you could only ever run National Intermediate or Senior at all 'area' levels after that. I'm not sure whether it lasts forever or 10 years, have heard both. In any case you could be inelligible for Novice without ever having run it.

Just to add an extra layer of confusion...If you get asked to run for your County at the Provinical level (usually they ask the first 8 or so across the line at the County race, but if some of then are unavailable they work down the list, so it's not too unusual for someone who was around 15th in the County race to be running for his County at Provincial level) and you win County Gold (your county beats all the other counties, and you are one of the scorers ie first 4 of the County team), you are ruled out at that provinicial level and obviously everything below - so if it happened at Leinster Intermediates, you'd only have Nat Intermediate and all Senior (County, Provincial, National) left.

Similarly you could get asked to run for your province at National level - another way to get excluded at that level if you are one of the scorers of the winning Province. So you can have fellows running for their club, county and province all on the same day! Gets akward when your clubmate is running for a different county than you (e.g. someone form Meath but living and running with a Dublin club, might get asked to run for the county of his birth, while you run for Dublin) - in one way he is your team mate but in another way he is not. So for one of your teams you want to pass him out and beat him, but for the other team you want to encourage him...in reality fellows just encourage each other anyway so that's not too much of a problem I suppose.

Hope that clears it up, but maybe not! I think on the entry form for Leinster Novice or Intermediate last year, (on the athletics leinster website) this was all explained in point form a bit more clearly than I have put it down.



You will hear in equal measure, people proudly complaining 'I've lost my Novice' but also other fellows complaining 'Damnit in my first year I got a team gold at Intermediate, but I was only 20th in the race - I'd love to have had another crack at winning/doing better in Novice and Intermediate, I'm just middle of the pack at Senior level, I could have been a contender at Novice/Intermediate, if I'd my time over again, I wouldn't have run that Intermediate race'

cfitz

Fair play to you for writing all that!



Just on this point though:

Racing Flat wrote: »

Similarly you could get asked to run for your province at National level - another way to get excluded at that level if you are one of the scorers of the winning Province. So you can have fellows running for their club, county and province all on the same day!

I don't think you can represent your province. Unless it's a very new thing? I've never seen provincial team results at adult level.

Domer

Wow... that was some good information. Thanks RF.

Does it only count in cross, or does it also count in track. I understood that if you were top 3 on track at 800m or over, you also lost your cross status. Is this true?

Basically the rational for my question is for personal reasons. I finished 3rd in the 800m at National seniors in 1991 (1:49.26). Never did much cross, so never won anything of note (individual or team). I am now running again and fancy giving county novice a go. Am I eligible?

Thanks,
Domer

Racing Flat

cfitz wrote: »

I don't think you can represent your province. Unless it's a very new thing? I've never seen provincial team results at adult level.

Whoops, I just assumed it was the same at adult level but that nobody took it seriously, to the point that 'provinvial boards' or County boards if responsible didn't bother picking teams. I thought I saw someone in a Munster singlet at the National Inter-Counties last year, as well as people in Cork singlets, but maybe that was a juvenile.

Domer wrote: »

Does it only count in cross, or does it also count in track. I understood that if you were top 3 on track at 800m or over, you also lost your cross status. Is this true?

Basically the rational for my question is for personal reasons. I finished 3rd in the 800m at National seniors in 1991 (1:49.26). Never did much cross, so never won anything of note (individual or team). I am now running again and fancy giving county novice a go. Am I eligible?

Thanks,
Domer

I didn't think there was a cross over between track and cross country, but I don't know for sure. It's probably rarely an issue because most people who are top 3 at National level at any distance are probably good enough to lose their Novice/Intermediate status or not interested in cross country. But there are bound to be cases like yours. As I said, someone told me it was 10 years, others have said it's forever, again I don't know for sure. Best bet might be to ring your club / County Board / Athletics Ireland and ask them. You've missed the County Novice for this year though!

Not a bad 800 time:eek: might have got you a gold this year:eek::eek:

cfitz

Racing Flat wrote: »

Whoops, I just assumed it was the same at adult level but that nobody took it seriously, to the point that 'provinvial boards' or County boards if responsible didn't bother picking teams. I thought I saw someone in a Munster singlet at the National Inter-Counties last year, as well as people in Cork singlets, but maybe that was a juvenile.

Yeah I don't think it exists, and it would be hard to pick teams for it given that people might eligible for National Novice but not Leinster Novice etc. Your man at the Inter-Counties may have been wearing a Munster singlet that he earned when he ran juvenile previously or something.

Racing Flat wrote: »

I didn't think there was a cross over between track and cross country, but I don't know for sure. It's probably rarely an issue because most people who are top 3 at National level at any distance are probably good enough to lose their Novice/Intermediate status or not interested in cross country. But there are bound to be cases like yours. As I said, someone told me it was 10 years, others have said it's forever, again I don't know for sure. Best bet might be to ring your club / County Board / Athletics Ireland and ask them. You've missed the County Novice for this year though!

I think there is usually a facility for regrading people whose performances are now at a much lower level than they were when they were when they were elevated to the higher grade.

Oh and not all counties have had their Novice Championships yet.

violator13

The whole thing needs to be scrapped and perhaps just hold a novice and senior only.Some guys are doing the three,which can mean nine races!
Also look at any race and there are guys running who broke their status..Not always their fault as its so bloody complicated!! I once asked a so called aai oficial who said "havent a fcking clue pal"..
The AAI make the FAI look like pros!

T runner

Heres an old AAI doc I found on Net

I have a feeling an athlete becoming a master has something to do with becoming re-eligable for novice but this may be combined with a period of time.

Anyway here are the rules for Novice and Inter from this doc although may be out of date.

RULE 4 - Definitions

4.1 Novice Cross Country
The definition of a Novice for Cross Country is an athlete who has
never been:
a) A medal winner at National Intermediate or Senior Cross Country, individual or team (Club or County) in Grade A.

b) A medal winner at National level in any track (indoor or outdoor) or road event at 1500 metres and upward.

c) Represented Ireland at Senior International level.

d) A medal winner in individual Novice or a scoring member of the winning team, club or county, at the National Novice Championships.

e) Athletes must be aged 19 years or over on the 31st December in the year
of competition.



4.2 Intermediate Cross Country
An athlete shall be ineligible for Intermediate cross country competition if:

a) He/she has placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd individual in the National Intermediate or the National Senior (club or county) Cross Country Championships.

b) He/she has been a scoring member of the winning team (club or county) in the National Intermediate Cross Country.

c) He/she has been a scoring member of the winning team of Grade A (club or county) in the National Senior Cross Country.

d) He/she has represented Ireland in a Senior International Cross Country event.

e) Athletes must be aged 20 years or over on the 31st December in the year
of competition.

Racing Flat

cfitz wrote: »

Oh and not all counties have had their Novice Championships yet.

:eek: They'd want to get a move on.

Racing Flat

violator13 wrote: »

The whole thing needs to be scrapped and perhaps just hold a novice and senior only.Some guys are doing the three,which can mean nine races!
Also look at any race and there are guys running who broke their status..Not always their fault as its so bloody complicated!! I once asked a so called aai oficial who said "havent a fcking clue pal"..
The AAI make the FAI look like pros!

I agree with this to a certain extent - the fact that the general standard in the Novice seems to be higher than that of Intermediate perplexes me (as in I and a few others tend to finish a higher % up the field in Novice than Intermediate, and I don't think it's down to the difference in distance).

About fellows running who shouldn't be, I've never seen this, but imagine it could happen very easily. No one checks from the offical side (as far as I know). But obviously if Cragg turned up for the Dublin Novice everyone would know, but fellows further down the field scoring for teams could well get away with it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are official checks? The way you might get caught is that you do get some eagle-eyed coaches form clubs who would be hoping their club is going to medal, so they'd know about the competition and might launch an appeal. Not known this to happen but I remember the week before one of the big races recently, 'rumours' being relayed from one club to another that there would be an appeal launched if a certain inelligible runner ran, so the club withdrew the runner in advance. As it turns out the runner would have been elligible anyway!

T runner

Id normally agree about the intermediate but it was actually more competitive than the novice his year. Some of the top ten lads in the novice didnt make it into the top ten in thei netremediate. Any Stronger lads also did better in this as the going was softer.
The fact taht intermediate was reduced to 8k this year might have had an impact on its competitiveness.

Alan OBrien won again but he must have a good chance in the nationals. The guy he beat into second ran sub 15 mins in Rathfarnham the week before and OBrien bided and picked him off impressively opening up 16 secs at the end in the intermediate. Hopefully the Leinster novice should be of a very high standard this year.

I dont think ineligable runners is too much of a problem. Its a small enough community and hard to getaway with. I hope the vast majority if not all coaches and athletes wouldnt do it anyway on grounds of honour.

Id be for keeping the intermediate as long as its competitive.

ecoli

T runner wrote: »

Id be for keeping the intermediate as long as its competitive.

i agree this country has such a small cross country season as it is i think we should jump at the chance to have good quality races that give are athletes options for when they want to race as opposed to designing their training schedules around the few races that are available