Photograph copyright law question- Irish car magazine problem

Cruising_R32

Hi all,

I’m sorry my first post is a question but I’m in need of some advice asap.

I’ve been doing some free lance motor sport photography over the last year and have supplied an Irish car magazine with photos each month for different articles.
I know the editor and so there was no money changing hands but there was an agreement that if they used my pictures in the magazine I would be given credit and my web site would be mentioned.
This suited all involved, I got work published, the editor received ready made articles, the event organisers got coverage and the magazine owner got paid for advertisements.

Now my question is this:

Last month I noticed the magazine had run two, one page advertisements using my photographs, one is a single photo and the other is made up of 14 photos.
What pissed me off was that they never asked me if it would be ok to use my photos again for the advertisements, did not give me credit for the photos, did not mention my web site and did not offer me any payment.
Again this month they have run the 14 photo, one page advertisement.

Are they allowed continue using my photos as they want because I gave them to them for an article?
I have emailed them and asked them to explain why they have used my photos without my permission but am not expecting a very positive reply.

Can someone please advise me on photograph copyright law and what I should do next?

Regards,

Alan.

ldunne

this might not be much help but u live and learn with these things,always do your deal before you hand anything over ,it is nice to see your shots published but it doesnt always put food on the table,if you know the editor give him a call and speak on the phone to him,the personel aproach i find is always better than email they can ignore an email
might not be the best legal advice but hope it helps

AnCatDubh

on the question of copyright - afaik, he/she who looks through the viewfinder and presses the shutter release owns the resulting image unless they are employed (some form of compensation) by another party.

You appear to have granted limited publication rights - was it verbal or is there an email trail?, either ways you would have the law on your side from the sounds of it.

This crops up regularly. It may be a misunderstanding in so far as the advertising department may be unaware as to the rights, however in any case you have a reasonable right to be sorted. The herald appear to be divils for it - publish now, worry about who actually owns the image later seems to be the modus operandi.

personally - i'd try a soft approach in the first instance, it could save you a solicitor fee if you are really serious about it. if they tell you to f*ck off, then you have the option to proceed down a legal route if you feel that strongly about it.

Another approach (which has worked around these parts) is to send them an invoice for the use of the image as they have obviously gone further than your original agreement.

sorry for your trouble though. its just plain nasty when it happens.

(the above isn't legal opinion by the way).

Borderfox

Unless you specify that it is for single use only and with it being verbal you might be on rocky ground, but still the pictures are your and you might be able to sort out some payment after the fact based on the point of change of usage from editorial to advertising?

sheesh

point out to the editor that you expected that any time your images were used that you expect that credit be given to you otherwise the deal is off and tell him that he cannot use your pictures. Explain that the reason he did not have to pay cash for them is that the credit on the images was worth money to you . Explain that you are disappointed that your credit did not appear on those images and that he needs to keep up his end of the bargin if he wants it to continue.

next question is what are you willing to do if he says something like 'it is too hard to get the credit printed for each picture'

Are you going to spend money on a solicitor?
is it worth it?


as far as I can see the deal is he credits you he gets to use the pics for free


you could always sell the pictures to a stock photo agency and when he doesn't credit you inform them that this person has no right to use the pictures and let them try and get money off him

pete4130

I'm going to take an ever so wild guess and say its a magazine that starts with an "S" and ends with a "K" and reads something like this.... S***k and rhymes with the word DICK?

He's used images of mine before without my permission (assuming it is the same magazine/editor). I gave my images to a friend for a specific use on a website, who without my permission passed them onto the magazine and they ran them without credit or knwoing who owned them.

He tried to say because I'd given them to my friend I had no copyright over them (he was chancing his arm). The end of the story was that the editor said any bill I'd invoice him with he would pas sonto my friend (which he was also "friends" with). I didn't want to my friend to incur any financial burden as he really wasn't aware he shouldnt have passedon my images.

To make matters worse the magazine gave all my B&W images a sicky green tone and lost all the detail in the shadows. I pointed this out that they had made my work look like sh!te in their magazine and I never any of my images to appear in their magazine again because their publication couldn't do them justice. The editor then asked me if I was implying his magazine wasn't good enough for my images to be used in. I told him that they were his words and wasn't going to disagree with him. He then basically said that I was shooting myself in the foot, that they were branching out with an "extreme" publication and a "music/DJ" publication as the magazine was expanding into a publication company as well and that they would never want to deal with people with my attitude again and I was making a big mistake.....in other words I was threatened with "You'll never work in this town again" routine.

For the record I did seek legal advice before approaching the magazine. I was told it can be difficult and lengthy to persue these sort of things if there is nothing in writing. Email him with your queries and see how he responds. His email could work in your favour, he didn't seem the brightest when I was dealing with him.

Name and shame I say.

mikeanywhere

pete4130 wrote: »

I'm going to take an ever so wild guess and say its a magazine that starts with an "S" and ends with a "K" and reads something like this.... S***k and rhymes with the word DICK?

Thats the one alright!!

I had exactly the same issue with the editor and magazine quite a while back when my images weren't credited and they were changed/manipulated to suit the article. Problem is that I went through the organiser of the event who supplied the text and images. It seems the clearly expressed guidelines were somewhat lost in translation and the editor used the same story about pushing the bill back to the guy who submitted the article.

Hagar

Bill him, then when he doesn't pay pass the bills on to a debt collection agency. It probably won't get you your money but it will cause him grief which is the next best thing.

Paulw

This is an all too common issue when you give away images for free. You get used and abused.

Realistically, there is probably very little you can do. I gather most of the dealing has been done verbally, rather than in writing. It's always good to have a paper trail of what has been agreed, even just emails.

Best of luck with whatever you plan on doing.

shepthedog

This is now an unfortunately common problem.. . In future state implicitly from the outset, what exactly the terms of usage are for your images. i.e. single use of images for one issue only, no web use etc. Make them as detailed as possible.

In the meantime, I would invoice them anyway, as at least its better than doing nothing. Send it directly to accounts dept and might slip into the system.

Cruising_R32

ldunne wrote: »

if you know the editor give him a call and speak on the phone to him,the personel aproach i find is always better than email they can ignore an email

I've done this and he has said it is down to the owner and not him :mad:

Cruising_R32

AnCatDubh wrote: »

You appear to have granted limited publication rights - was it verbal or is there an email trail?, either ways you would have the law on your side from the sounds of it.

Yes its pretty much all verbal apart from a few emails and texts. Does that not work both ways in that he can not prove they had permission to use my photographs?

Cruising_R32

Borderfox wrote: »

Unless you specify that it is for single use only and with it being verbal you might be on rocky ground, but still the pictures are your and you might be able to sort out some payment after the fact based on the point of change of usage from editorial to advertising?

I gave my photographs with the understanding they would be used for an article and I would be given credit for them and my web site mentioned. Now seen as they can not take back 15000 issues per month for the last two months I reckon they should pay me for using the photos.

Cruising_R32

sheesh wrote: »

point out to the editor that you expected that any time your images were used that you expect that credit be given to you otherwise the deal is off and tell him that he cannot use your pictures. Explain that the reason he did not have to pay cash for them is that the credit on the images was worth money to you .

as far as I can see the deal is he credits you he gets to use the pics for free

you could always sell the pictures to a stock photo agency and when he doesn't credit you inform them that this person has no right to use the pictures and let them try and get money off him

I'm going to let them know they are not allowed use any of my photos again without my written permission. Selling the images on so someone else can chase them is a good idea

Cruising_R32

pete4130 wrote: »

I'm going to take an ever so wild guess and say its a magazine that starts with an "S" and ends with a "K" and reads something like this.... S***k and rhymes with the word DICK?

To make matters worse the magazine gave all my B&W images a sicky green tone and lost all the detail in the shadows. I pointed this out that they had made my work look like sh!te in their magazine

that they were branching out with an "extreme" publication and a "music/DJ" publication as the magazine was expanding into a publication company

For the record I did seek legal advice before approaching the magazine. I was told it can be difficult and lengthy to persue these sort of things if there is nothing in writing. Email him with your queries and see how he responds. His email could work in your favour, he didn't seem the brightest when I was dealing with him.

Yes that would be them.
I had the same problem with their "printer" ruining my photos.
branching out my arse, the owner fancies himself as a dj and has more interest in that then cars.
I've emailed them all as I now want (and need) a paper trail and I am hoping he runs his mouth off via email the way he does on the phone....

Cruising_R32

mikeanywhere wrote: »

I had exactly the same issue with the editor and magazine quite a while back when my images weren't credited and they were changed/manipulated to suit the article.

I had this problem too, they printed a "sorry" in the following issue which is worthless as everyone who bought/ read the magazine seen the photos but would never know who took them.

Cruising_R32

Hagar wrote: »

Bill him, then when he doesn't pay pass the bills on to a debt collection agency. It probably won't get you your money but it will cause him grief which is the next best thing.

I reckon he would just ignore any bill I send him but I like your thinking....

Cruising_R32

Paulw wrote: »

Realistically, there is probably very little you can do. I gather most of the dealing has been done verbally, rather than in writing. It's always good to have a paper trail of what has been agreed, even just emails.

A lesson I have now learned and will not forget


Thank you ALL for the advice.

Has anyone ever gotten a good result with a problem like this and how did you get it?

What is the going rate for a photograph to be used in an article/ advertisement?
If I do send them a bill, how would I work out the total owed?

ldunne

I used to suplie a magazine on a monthly bassis and my price was 500 euro a month plus vat,a good way to get what you want is to treaten to name and shame said magazine
regards

RCNPhotos

Let us know how this goes for you, I'd very interested to see how you get on.

I reccomend Joe Duffy, the most powerful man in ireland

No better place to name and shame someone!

Cruising_R32

ldunne wrote: »

I used to suplie a magazine on a monthly bassis and my price was 500 euro a month plus vat
regards

So would that be the going rate for work?
Would people normally charge per photograph or per article?

RCNPhotos wrote: »

I reccomend Joe Duffy, the most powerful man in ireland
No better place to name and shame someone!

I'm not going to go down that road just yet and to be totally honest I don't think it would work with the owner- leather neck :mad:


PS. sorry for not using multi quote earlier, only just noticed it.

Paddy@CIRL

Removed - see post below.

Samson

Whilst you sound genuinely aggrieved, your unsubstantiated allegations against Slick Magazine cannot be left unchecked for a number of reasons. The most pertinent one that comes to mind is libel.

Samson

Cruising_R32 wrote: »

Has anyone ever gotten a good result with a problem like this and how did you get it?

Several years ago, I was browsing through a certain Irish current affairs magazine that I used to buy regularly, when I recognised one of my shots.
The particular photo had only ever appeared previously on one popular Irish website (gratis, but with my permission), and they had obviously lifted it from there.

I rang the magazine's office and asked the receptionist who the Photo Editor was, as I wanted to submit some work for consideration. Once I had his contact details I sent him an email stating that I was the copyright owner of photo on page XX of issue YY and would like to be compensated. I didn't go over the top - just said something along the lines of "I'm sure it was an oversight on your part not to seek my permission etc." but I did hint at my legal team waiting in the wings.

I got a fairly quick response saying send us an invoice for the photo; which I had in the post about ten minutes later. I received a cheque within a week.

Easy money (for once).

Paddy@CIRL

If you want, I can get the Slick issue number my images were used in without permission and the corresponding issues of Modified Motors magazine, who pay me for my photographs, if thats of any use to you ?

I can also show you the images online they used and show you the print version where they photoshopped out my watermarks ?

Cruising_R32

Samson wrote: »

Once I had his contact details I sent him an email stating that I was the copyright owner of photo on page XX of issue YY and would like to be compensated. I didn't go over the top - just said something along the lines of "I'm sure it was an oversight on your part not to seek my permission etc." but I did hint at my legal team waiting in the wings.

I got a fairly quick response saying send us an invoice for the photo; which I had in the post about ten minutes later. I received a cheque within a week.

Thank you for that advice, would you mind sending me a PM with a rough draft of what you sent them in your letter seen as it got you the result I would like to receive?

I never got to see the post made by Paddy that has now been deleted but if this is the same Paddy that I know photographed for Modified Motors and spends time in Waterford....... hello, it seems the same "work =pay" issue you had recently has now affected me

I'm still waiting on a reply from the owner of the magazine to the email I sent him on Tuesday 14 Oct.
I'm going to send the editor and Owner another email, hopefully I will hear something back from them soon.

I'd prefer not to go down the route of....
1. name and shame
2. solicitors letters
so I'll give it another day or two before I escalate it further.

Any help with what I should write to them (legal copyright facts etc) to try get a positive reply that will suit all concerned would be greatly appreciated. PM if you like.

Alan.

Samson

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

If you want, I can get the Slick issue number my images were used in without permission and the corresponding issues of Modified Motors magazine, who pay me for my photographs, if thats of any use to you ?

I can also show you the images online they used and show you the print version where they photoshopped out my watermarks ?

I don't disbelieve you. But, boards.ie is responsible for any allegations made on this site (just look at what happened with the MCD thing), and could be held legally liable if a libel case were brought. Therefore, very little leeway can be given in such matters.

Samson

Cruising_R32 wrote: »

Thank you for that advice, would you mind sending me a PM with a rough draft of what you sent them in your letter seen as it got you the result I would like to receive?

I never got to see the post made by Paddy that has now been deleted but if this is the same Paddy that I know photographed for Modified Motors and spends time in Waterford....... hello, it seems the same "work =pay" issue you had recently has now affected me

I'm still waiting on a reply from the owner of the magazine to the email I sent him on Tuesday 14 Oct.
I'm going to send the editor and Owner another email, hopefully I will hear something back from them soon.

I'd prefer not to go down the route of....
1. name and shame
2. solicitors letters
so I'll give it another day or two before I escalate it further.

Any help with what I should write to them (legal copyright facts etc) to try get a positive reply that will suit all concerned would be greatly appreciated. PM if you like.

Alan.

It's quite a few years ago, but I'll see if I still have it in MyDocs on my PC at home this evening.

Cruising_R32

Thank you, really appreciate any help with this

Covey

And don't forget there is always teh small claims court. Fast and inexpensive.