Drum Mics

Mars Bar

Hey guys,

I was looking at these mics for my drums... http://www.thomann.de/ie/audix_fusion_7_drum_set.htm
I have been saving for quite a while to get a decent set to mic up my drums at gigs and possibly in the studio some time down the line. I don't know too much about mics so I just want to get a decent set that will last me a long time(i will make it my mission to keep good care of them!). Has anyone tried these? What did ya make of them!
Thanks for your help.

danjokill

mars bar wrote: »

Hey guys,

I was looking at these mics for my drums... http://www.thomann.de/ie/audix_fusion_7_drum_set.htm
I have been saving for quite a while to get a decent set to mic up my drums at gigs and possibly in the studio some time down the line. I don't know too much about mics so I just want to get a decent set that will last me a long time(i will make it my mission to keep good care of them!). Has anyone tried these? What did ya make of them!
Thanks for your help.

Yankie drum sound from them. Maybe that's what your after?

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

Yankie drum sound from them. Maybe that's what your after?

What do you mean by that D?

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What do you mean by that D?

They are overused "state-side" ever small studio in the states has them and I hear them all the time on "yankie demos" that F14 bass drum mic has a very distinct sound (not to my taste). Personally i'd go and make up a set if i the budget allowed.

danjokill

danjokill wrote: »

They are overused "state-side" ever small studio in the states has them and I hear them all the time on "yankie demos" that F14 bass drum mic has a very distinct sound (not to my taste). Personally i'd go and make up a set if i the budget allowed.

I might have put my foot in it I think its the D6 i don't like.

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

They are overused "state-side" ever small studio in the states has them and I hear them all the time on "yankie demos" that F14 bass drum mic has a very distinct sound (not to my taste). Personally i'd go and make up a set if i the budget allowed.

Interesting, is it a 'scooped' sound?

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Interesting, is it a 'scooped' sound?

Mid's are like the rocky road to god knows where. And the top end it far to much for my taste makes it sound like a tom. The shure 52 or akg D112 are better mic for me that is. i have a trick with a AT pzm in conjunction with one of these that i love.

PaulBrewer

Apologies for hijacking Mars Bars post but, did you see the Ken Scott Drum Recording videos on RecordProduction.com Danjokill ?

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Apologies for hijacking Mars Bars post but, did you see the Ken Scott Drum Recording videos on RecordProduction.com Danjokill ?

No, but just found it on the recordproduction site I'll give it a watch tonight and get back to you with my thoughts on it.

PaulBrewer

I posted about it a few weeks ago ....

You're not saying (sniff) that you don't (sniff) read all my posts are you (wobbly lip)?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

those mics arent bad , but for most live gigs all you need is a kick mic , tand maybe aoverheads

and the akg d112, ev 868 , or any shure kick mic will do . factor about 100 euro for one

if you do need toms - the seinnhiser clip on e 604 is good about 100 each

and a 57 for the snare. 100

over heads - you cant lose on the oktava mk12 pair - wonderful mic. 300

so for 500 - youd have a decent kick , over head , snare setup

and add tom mics later.

and they will do you well in the studio as well.

dont buy a cheaper midrange package , as they are not worth it in the long run - trust me ive been there.


oh,, and DONT BUY AN AUDIX D6 KICK MIC ! ITS A HORRIBLE MIC - ( but if you play non triggered death metal - its great !)

Mars Bar

Thank you Dadumtish for that advice. Much appreciated.:D

danjokill

DaDumTish wrote: »

those mics arent bad , but for most live gigs all you need is a kick mic , tand maybe aoverheads

and the akg d112, ev 868 , or any shure kick mic will do . factor about 100 euro for one

if you do need toms - the seinnhiser clip on e 604 is good about 100 each

and a 57 for the snare. 100

over heads - you cant lose on the oktava mk12 pair - wonderful mic. 300

so for 500 - youd have a decent kick , over head , snare setup

and add tom mics later.

and they will do you well in the studio as well.

dont buy a cheaper midrange package , as they are not worth it in the long run - trust me ive been there.


oh,, and DONT BUY AN AUDIX D6 KICK MIC ! ITS A HORRIBLE MIC - ( but if you play non triggered death metal - its great !)

Very good choices actual I'd nearly go as far 100%.
And yes stay away from the D6.

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I posted about it a few weeks ago ....

You're not saying (sniff) that you don't (sniff) read all my posts are you (wobbly lip)?

You're a machine man!!! I wish i could read them all but i need sometime in the studio otherwise all I'd do is read.

Watching the vid's at the moment. super stuff. did you see where he places the ev re20 on the kick (first vid). looking right at the hammer? i'd aways have it or any kick mic either a little to the right or left 2" or so. so as to get not to get to much attack.

but jaysus i'd sell my own mother to work with him. the things you'd learn.
and my god he's got the best mic's in the world. i dream of the day i'd own a pair of coles for over heads!!!!!!

danjokill

danjokill wrote: »

Very good choices actual I'd nearly go as far 100%.
And yes stay away from the D6.

make that 80% i'm not to keen on anything that clips onto the tom.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i agree, i sold my 604's and use my oktava mk12's on the toms , very nice

danjokill

DaDumTish wrote: »

i agree, i sold my 604's and use my oktava mk12's on the toms , very nice

oktava mk12 have'nt tryed them. But only read good things about them.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

for 300 euro for a matched pair - they work miracles - destined to be a classic .

if6was9

I've used that audix set minus the floor tom mic alot as its the main drum mic set i've had access to.
I think the mics on the toms are nice but a little muffled, the attack isn't picked up so well on them but you can get a very nice tom sound with them.
they're not great on the snare, again kinda muffled and i just didn't really dig the tone with it.
the overheads are really decent- very clear with plenty of detail, weird low end but I pretty much always filter it off anyways on overheads- i don't like these mics on anything else like acoustic guitars, they sound very tinny and kinda strange but they're really nice on the overheads.
the kick mic is alright, you can get a decent rock kick sound with it but I don't really like it for metal much, too much has to be done to it.

What I've done is use this kit with my shure drum mic kit-( 3 57's, beta 52a) so now i use 57's on the snare, these on the toms and overheads, my own mic on the kick and then I use the other kick mic on the floor tom.

If i were you I'd look for this set either in the US or used, you'll save a good bit and can get something else then for the snare if you think it needs it.
I'm getting a set of those oktava mics soon so i'll see how the OH's stack up to them when I try them side by side.

tweeky

Just look at any Jools / live DVD or studio / concert pix the starting point is;

Kik = RE20/Senn 421/Shure D12.
Snare Top = Shure 57 & maybe an Akg 414 if you are brave.
Hats = AKG 451/Akg 414 for hi-fi or Shure 57 for Grit.
Toms = Senn 421
OH = Akg 414/ Neumann 87 for old school
Centre OH any Large condenser or 57/58 for grit (with smashed comp)
Amb= Neumann 87/ Akg 414 or if the record companyis paying U47's.

Most of these mics are standard PA rental except the condensers which most studios worth their salt should have. The condensers can be swapped with equivalents as they will be to personal taste but the dynamics are a great starting point. But hey Kak kit, kak drummer = Kak

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

Just look at any Jools/ live DVD or studio/concert pix the starting point is

Kik = RE20/Senn 421/Shure D12.
Snare Top = Shure 57 & maybe an Akg 414 if you are brave.
Hats = AKG 451/Akg 414 for hi-fi or Shure 57 for Grit.
Toms = Senn 421
OH = Akg 414/ Neumann 87 for old school
Centre OH any Large condenser or 57/58 for grit (with smashed comp)
Amb= Neumann 87/ Akg 414 or if the record companyis paying U47's.

Most of these mics are standard PA rental except the condensers which most studios worth their salt should have. The condensers can be swapped with equivalents as they will be to personal taste but the dynamics are a great starting point. But hey Kak kit, kak drummer = Kak

Very Good Post - There's very little mystery left in Recording - use the right tools and get on with it!

I always encourage people to go with 'industry standard' stuff before exploring the lottery of 'other stuff'.

It becomes 'industry standard' because a lot of the World's Best Ears made it so.

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Very Good Post - There's very little mystery left in Recording - use the right tools and get on with it!

I always encourage people to go with 'industry standard' stuff before exploring the lottery of 'other stuff'.

It becomes 'industry standard' because a lot of the World's Best Ears made it so.

Agree 100% but you'd hardly call that a budget mic set as per the posters comment

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

Agree 100% but you'd hardly call that a budget mic set as per the posters comment

No, Indeed. I was just agreeing with Tweeky's comments.

I think there's some argument for buying a good Stereo Pair and not a cheap multi mic set. I believe one would get better results.

Check out -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

as was posted by someone else recently.

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

No, Indeed. I was just agreeing with Tweeky's comments.

I think there's some argument for buying a good Stereo Pair and not a cheap multi mic set. I believe one would get better results.

Check out -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

as was posted by someone else recently.

Yeah i've seen that alright. But i'd still think prefer to have everthing close mic'ed first.

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

Yeah i've seen that alright. But i'd still think prefer to have everthing close mic'ed first.

But that's the point a good stereo pair will sound better! Or perhaps you think otherwise?

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

But that's the point a good stereo pair will sound better! Or perhaps you think otherwise?

Hang on, i'm not dishing the (recorderman method) nor am I saying if you have to buy two mic's buy a pair of c414 and everthing will be ok.
Simply a selection of mid range mic's as outline prior for close micing and a xy setup overhead (maybe rode nt5's which are not two pricey and sound good) will when it comes to mixing give you much more control over the sound of the kit and i feel this would be a better choice someone starting out.

But hey thats just my thinking on it.

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

But hey thats just my thinking on it.

I disagree.

I think you either want to play at being a recording engineer or you want to be one.

My experience with cheap multi mic sets is that while they may give you more control, it's control of an inferior signal.

If the mic/preamp/converter chain is compromised by inferior mics, so is the final result.

The 'Recorderman method' is an old 60s plan used by one of the Johns brothers (either Glynn or Andy I can't recall)

The path to recording good drum sounds is well trodden, all you have to do is go down it!

Don't be afraid of simplicity, it didn't do the Zep any harm!

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I disagree.

I think you either want to play at being a recording engineer or you want to be one.

My experience with cheap multi mic sets is that while they may give you more control, it's control of an inferior signal.

If the mic/preamp/converter chain is compromised by inferior mics, so is the final result.

The 'Recorderman method' is an old 60s plan used by one of the Johns brothers (either Glynn or Andy I can't recall)

The path to recording good drum sounds is well trodden, all you have to do is go down it!

Don't be afraid of simplicity, it didn't do the Zep any harm!

just for the record at No point in this thread have i said buy or recommend buying "multi mic set"

second as "DaDumTish" pointed out 57's, a D112 and maybe some MD421's won't break the bank.

third i have no qualm with the johns brothers and it was "Glyn" who came up with it. and anyone who has a room that sounds as good as that used by him then by all means try it. (not sure where it was .... maybe abbey or some other top room)


Everything in context

PaulBrewer

danjokill wrote: »

just for the record at No point in this thread have i said buy or recommend buying "multi mic set"

second as "DaDumTish" pointed out 57's, a D112 and maybe some MD421's won't break the bank.

third i have no qualm with the johns brothers and it was "Glyn" who came up with it. and anyone who has a room that sounds as good as that used by him then by all means try it. (not sure where it was .... maybe abbey or some other top room)


Everything in context

Olympic Studios I believe ! I visited Cenzo Townshend there last year.

Have a look at this -

http://www.recordproduction.com/craig-silvey-drums-recording.html

PaulBrewer

Here's Olympic as it is now-

http://www.recordproduction.com/townhouse_studios_cenzo_townshen.htm

danjokill

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Olympic Studios I believe ! I visited Cenzo Townshend there last year.

Have a look at this -

http://www.recordproduction.com/craig-silvey-drums-recording.html

Very Interesting, Neumann’s 67 i presume. I'd love a pair!!!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

glyn johns method etc is only good in a good room ,
most of us home guys have to use dead rooms as they are small / tiny.
so we need to mic everything to fully control the sound / recreate a room artificially later -

we aint all pro recorders on this forum lads - some of us have to make do with the next best thing - ( and some next best things are actually better in a home studio than the best thing ;-) )

that said - i have mangaed to capture nice images of the kit with just two oktava mk12s and and akg 112 kick mic - in my experiments.

but since i got the josephson c42s for overheads - I messed around with the oktavas and found they work very sweetly on the toms - i can also mic further away from the toms with more air and the spills are nicer so i dont have to gate the toms anymore .

( with the close mic dymanics - i found the spills very muddy and unmusical and the tom hum very loud - which is not the case with these condesers )


i learned this trick after Antimo in AP studios used 414's on the toms , and got the same effect - low level musical sounding spill and low tom hum.

im still learning to caprure drums well, and find that the less eq used ( find mics with the graph you want ) and the more musical the spills , the better the overall blend in the end.

tweeky

DaDumTish wrote: »

glyn johns method etc is only good in a good room ,
most of us home guys have to use dead rooms as they are small / tiny.
so we need to mic everything to fully control the sound / recreate a room artificially later -

The Glyn john method only works with a good drummer and then add a good room for flavour. A good drummer will make a "t bone" kit in a bathroom sound good but a poor Drummer in Olympic/Abbey/Windmill etc. will not.
I listed a basic standard mike list with 57's and 421's etc. and led on to some €500 414's, i did not give it the big one as i clearly stated the condensers are personal taste.
If a young engineer asks my advice about a basic kit of mics to replicate a classic record he has heard in the 70's 80's 90's onwards there is a good chance these mikes will feature and that is a great help to the young buck as ii was to me back in the last century when my questions were answered. Jesus a SM58 is only €80. i brought my own sambos to work to save up for a good set of mikes and one by one i collected and treasured them realising the radio shack copy would not deliver the goods.
Rant over, where's me medical card gone!

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

i brought my own sambos to work t

And the 214s are cheap as chips now! Has anyone compared them to 414s directly?

What sort of sambos?

if6was9

I think a few of you guys are getting a bit carried away and even a little dilluded.

Those mics she posted up are quite capable of getting a really good drum sound- S(H !)ure they aren't expensive and they aren't the best thing on the market but, they're not terrible either. I use really nice mics in college, expensive rodes and neumanns sennheiser md421 etc.., but when I record at home I use stuff liike this and if you take your time with positioning and have a nice source you can get awesome results. For the budget she's in this set is great.

Also in regard to the 2-3 mics set ups vs close mics, it really depends on the sound your after, we got an experienced enginner to mic drums for a recording we were doing, he used a kick mic, a snare mic and then a few expensive condensors( neumann U87, C414s, Rode tube classic, K2 I think) around top and back of the kit to catch the whole thing. it was really room sounding and the toms lacked punch and just had a general "room" sound, this would have been fine for some stuff but we couldn't do anything to the toms- couldn't change their level, gate them, eq em nothing. The next day we used one of those very budget sets with a 57 on snare and were way happier. we set that one up ourselves and it was the same kit, in the same room. The mis were worst but the sound was alot closer to what we were after.

PaulBrewer

if6was9 wrote: »

dilluded.

???

danjokill

if6was9 wrote: »

I think a few of you guys are getting a bit carried away and even a little dilluded.

Those mics she posted up are quite capable of getting a really good drum sound- S(H !)ure they aren't expensive and they aren't the best thing on the market but, they're not terrible either. I use really nice mics in college, expensive rodes and neumanns sennheiser md421 etc.., but when I record at home I use stuff liike this and if you take your time with positioning and have a nice source you can get awesome results. For the budget she's in this set is great.

Also in regard to the 2-3 mics set ups vs close mics, it really depends on the sound your after, we got an experienced enginner to mic drums for a recording we were doing, he used a kick mic, a snare mic and then a few expensive condensors( neumann U87, C414s, Rode tube classic, K2 I think) around top and back of the kit to catch the whole thing. it was really room sounding and the toms lacked punch and just had a general "room" sound, this would have been fine for some stuff but we couldn't do anything to the toms- couldn't change their level, gate them, eq em nothing. The next day we used one of those very budget sets with a 57 on snare and were way happier. we set that one up ourselves and it was the same kit, in the same room. The mis were worst but the sound was alot closer to what we were after.

Interesting. What College are you at?

PaulBrewer

You're missing the point -

1. Drum recording is a well developed craft at this stage - everyone does practically the same with the same tools, why try to reinvent the wheel? There's obviously plenty of variation sonically within that.

2. An investment in something like a pair of 214s or 414s will allow you to get better value from your money because you'll use them forever.(probably unlike the cheapo set) They're a proper tool for the job.

3. I'm NOT saying only use a good stereo pair. But that a good stereo pair will be a long term investment and invaluable to be augmented as and when it's appropriate.

4. Agreed you'll be more limited sonically now, but that's a short term inconvenience on the path towards long term goal. At least it will be a good sounding limitation in the meantime.

5. The lads who are saying 'buy once, buy right' have all been in that very same boat of 'will i send a grand and get 5 mics' or 'will I spend a grand on 2' and at some stage made the wrong decision!
We're offering you our experience to avoid very common pitfalls. It's up to you what you choose to do with it.

6. All of the above is only valid if you have a good drummer, good kit and a good room as Tweeky says.

Maybe we're not so 'deluded' after all?

danjokill

hahahaha .... I don't think you are deluded in the slightest (i am puzzled by that comment too). i agree with comments 1 through 6 no argument at all. C214 (i've never used them but take you're word on them) and C414 are great overheads, i won't compare them in the slightest with anything else.
Methods and the acoustic situations change and there are horse for courses. recorderman method maybe one in one acoustic situation but there are other methods for others.

Love, peace, respect, word!!!!!

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

im still learning to capture drums well, and find that the less eq used ( find mics with the graph you want ) and the more musical the spills , the better the overall blend in the end.

And so am I, but I'm much more interested in whizzing through the drum recording jungle in the path cut by the smart lads before me than trying to cut a new path with a penknife that will blunt very soon.

I agree about the less EQ and spill.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

if6was9 wrote: »

it was really room sounding and the toms lacked punch and just had a general "room" sound, this would have been fine for some stuff but we couldn't do anything to the toms- couldn't change their level, gate them, eq em nothing. The next day QUOTE]


thats actually the drummers fault - not the mics to be honest .

the drummer sgould have mixed the kit levels himself while he played - to take advantage of the room and the mic setup.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

thats actually the drummers fault

Everything's the drummers fault ...

tweeky

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Maybe we're not so 'deluded' after all?

Diluted maybe?

if6was9

maybe deluded was the wrong word, just i think some of ye are missing the point of what the original poster was asking.

-that recording wasn't the drummers fault, we didn't get the sound we wanted at allo, the next day we did, the only change was the mics used, same room, kit, pres, drummer even cables. We looked for a focused, clear, punchy sound we could have control over later on, by not close micing we didn't get that. The next day by close micing we did. Like I said the sound we got not close micing would have suited some people, not us. Different strokes for different folks.

Sure getting an expensive set of overhead would be a good purchase, but if the original poster wants a sound where close mics are a must then the set posted up fits the bill within budget and in my opinion would do a good job.
What your saying is kinda similar to saying to someone buy a high quality 2 channel interface because you'll use it for a long time when the person wants to be able to track a full kit- it makes since to get the best quality but you need to match your needs too.

I'm just saying that if your on a budget like the poster is , your not going to be able to afford a set like this http://www.thomann.de/ie/akg_c414_bxls_stereoset.htm that some of you mentioned and still not be able to mic what you want. Ye mentioned treading the paths of the greats- how many records have been made where they do close mic the drums? I mean its hardly uncommon now is it? I agree with alot of your points just they're not all practical all the time.

danjokill -The college im at is L.I.T by the way, they've savage gear there. Neumann Km84's, U 87's. Rode K2, Tube Classic 2, Nt-1as, Sennheiser Md421, Audix A2's, etc.. A yammie O2r room, a 5.1 d- command room, a stereo D command room and an analogue room with a soundcraft spirit desk. They've also got avid in all the labs and edit suites there.

PaulBrewer

if6was9 wrote: »

maybe deluded was the wrong word,

It certainly was the wrong spellin' !

I see where your coming from, but I don't think you're thinking big enough!

Reach for the Stars, they won't come down to you.

Mars Bar

I really got this going. This is turning into a very interesting thread but, now I'm all confused as what to buy.:(

PaulBrewer

I'm not!

2 x C214s and build up to a professional arsenal of mics!

Mars Bar

Okay...they are a bit pricey though. But I do appreciate the straight-to-the-point answer!

PaulBrewer

mars bar wrote: »

Okay...they are a bit pricey though. But I do appreciate the straight-to-the-point answer!

They won't be when you're still using them in 10 years time;)

Mars Bar

Point taken!