Purchasing new build, no septic tank

jwt

Had a hunt here for this and didn't see anything and if it's in the wrong area apologies.

We shelved our plans to build after finding a house that is almost complete and being sold.

Everything appears to be in order except for the septic tank.

Planning permission stipulates a pura flow waste treatment system which, from my limited understanding, is a waste pipe to a concrete tank with the overflow/liquid waste discharged to a bord na mona treatment sytem on a raised bed.

The pura flow system is in place but the first tank hasn't been installed.

However planning shows that an agreement is in place for maintenance, the condition is shown on the online planning as met.

I've rung the company that's listed in the attached planning documents and they are checking that they do indeed have a maintenance contract in place and to find out how much it is. They are getting back to me.

In particular the condition "The proposed effluent treatment system shall be install and maintained in accordance with the manufacturers specifications" is shown as completed in an attached document signed by the "Exec Planner"

But without the tank there's no way the planning condition could be met.

So where do I go with this?

Go ahead and install the tank myself?

Ring the planning office and point out the problem?

Is this normal?


JWT

sydthebeat

jwt wrote: »

Had a hunt here for this and didn't see anything and if it's in the wrong area apologies.

We shelved our plans to build after finding a house that is almost complete and being sold.

Everything appears to be in order except for the septic tank.

Planning permission stipulates a pura flow waste treatment system which, from my limited understanding, is a waste pipe to a concrete tank with the overflow/liquid waste discharged to a bord na mona treatment sytem on a raised bed.

The pura flow system is in place but the first tank hasn't been installed.

However planning shows that an agreement is in place for maintenance, the condition is shown on the online planning as met.

I've rung the company that's listed in the attached planning documents and they are checking that they do indeed have a maintenance contract in place and to find out how much it is. They are getting back to me.

In particular the condition "The proposed effluent treatment system shall be install and maintained in accordance with the manufacturers specifications" is shown as completed in an attached document signed by the "Exec Planner"

But without the tank there's no way the planning condition could be met.

1. So where do I go with this?

2. Go ahead and install the tank myself?

3. Ring the planning office and point out the problem?

4. Is this normal?


JWT

1. CAVEAT EMPTOR, buyer beware.... you are purchasing as is... warts and all.

2. yes, once the planning doesnt restrict the applicant to the site, whomever purchases gets to fulfill the planning conditions. was thre a cert of compliance on the works?? did you get a pre purchase survey done??

3. NO!!!!!!!!

4. well, normality is relative....

No6

Is it that the septic tank was definately not installed or that you cannot find it due to overgrown garden (frequently happens)

Did you not get a survey done is right, your solicitor should have advised you to get a survey done or where buying a new house get at least a snag list but also to check the boundaries, planning compliance, building regulation compliance.

jwt

We haven't signed yet, it was the survey that threw this up.

Solicitor is verifying architects cert is valid, fire cert etc.

Boundaries have been established and surveyor has verified them.

This is the only issue outstanding.


JWT

smashey

No6 wrote: »

Is it that the septic tank was definately not installed or that you cannot find it due to overgrown garden (frequently happens)

Agree with this. It took me 20 minutes to find one recently as it was completely overgrown. Briars didn't help my mood either. :mad::D

No6

smashey wrote: »

Agree with this. It took me 20 minutes to find one recently as it was completely overgrown. Briars didn't help my mood either. :mad::D

I normally try to find them but sometimes when its a complete jungle you have to draw a line. If the vendors and their auctoneers had any cop they would at least clear the growth around the septic tank, I have put in reports that I couldn't find the tank due to the garden being overgrown.

smashey

No6 wrote: »

I normally try to find them but sometimes when its a complete jungle you have to draw a line. If the vendors and their auctoneers had any cop they would at least clear the growth around the septic tank, I have put in reports that I couldn't find the tank due to the garden being overgrown.

My stubbornness got the better of me.

RKQ

Surely there is a septic tank! Could someone install a puraflow unit, without a tank, just to make the house look complete? (Maybe it was installed so the Exec Planner could "see" it installed!)

Ensure you receive a Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations. Installing a tank is not a big problem - subject to levels, especially pipe to puraflow unit.

Always important to protect yourself as best you can with a full survey, full certs of compliance and a good Solicitor. "Buyer beware" is very true.

muffler

RKQ wrote: »

Ensure you receive a Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations. Installing a tank is not a big problem - subject to levels, especially pipe to puraflow unit.

RKQ hit the nail on the head there. Its no big deal installing a septic tank but if the Puraflo is in place then you should get someone to check it for levels first.

And then again maybe there is a tank on the site and is just not visible as has been mentioned by others (including smashey the slasher )

jwt

Defo no tank, piping and power run down towards the pura flow and stop, capped, then 8 foot away is the service point for the pura flow with a capped connection.


Forgive my ignorance buts what the difference if any between the architects certs and a compliance cert?


JWT

RKQ

IMO Architects certs are what some people call "Certificates of Compliance with Planning Permission and the Building Regulations".

A Certificate must be supplied from the person that inspected open construction and drew down the mortgage stage payments. This person must have full Professional Indemnity Insurance. Qualifications and experience are also important. These Certificates are based on visual inspection, so hopefully the Certifier has seen all construction - open foundations, radon & ground floor construction, open block work walls and dpc's, open roof structure etc.

A Certificate is a "Professional Opinion". I look at them as a sworn affidavid which are attached to the Deeds of the property and which I must back up in Court if necessary.
Thankfully construction of domestic houses is relatively straight forward and black and white. It either complies or it doesn't. (Non-compliance is futile)

In simple layman terms, these Certificates protect your interests, as a third party has confirmed compliance. Should materials, construction or details not comply with Building regulations then you can issue proceedings against the Builder and the Certifier.

No6

I agree RKQ however the certs (RIAI certs Anyways) says substantial compliance, in other words it allows for minor issues.... I don't think the septic tank missing is minor however and the matter should be refered to you solicitor who should fefer it on to the vendors solicitor. You should not buy the house unless the septic tank and puraflo system is installed and comissioned, do anything else and you will most likely end up in big trouble!!!:eek:

smashey

No6 wrote: »

You should not buy the house unless the septic tank and puraflo system is installed and comissioned, do anything else and you will most likely end up in big trouble!!!:eek:

Aye in deep sh1t.

Kashkai

No6 wrote: »

I agree RKQ however the certs (RIAI certs Anyways) says substantial compliance, in other words it allows for minor issues.... I don't think the septic tank missing is minor however and the matter should be refered to you solicitor who should fefer it on to the vendors solicitor. You should not buy the house unless the septic tank and puraflo system is installed and comissioned, do anything else and you will most likely end up in big trouble!!!:eek:

Not to mention ending up knee deep in sh1t

I have a puraflow system and the planning permission states that it should be serviced once a year which I actually intended to do but Bord na Mona insisted on the septic tank being emptied before they did their check. Trouble is, they wouldn't give a definite time for when they'll call so what am I supposed to do, not use the toilets, showers, sinks etc until they show up?

muffler

smashey wrote: »

Aye in deep sh1t shit.

I corrected that for you

muffler

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Not to mention ending up knee deep in sh1tshit

And yours is also corrected

This fucking swear filter means zilch to muffler


Now then back on topic.

jwt

UPDATE

Just an engineer out to look at what's there and what's missing.

Basically there is pipe work to the percolation area (raised percolation bed)
Wiring run to same area

An inspection point for the percolation pipes

NO puraflow

NO pump

NO tank

guesstimate is 4,500 euro upwards for supply and fitting of missing bits.


JWT

RKQ

Ring Puroflow, I'm sure they cost circa 6K plus. A septic tank might be €500 and a pump about €300 to €600, depending on what it has to pump!

I'd cost all the missing pieces before proceeding. Its all looking abit "funny". what else is "missing?":rolleyes:
Did you get both Certificates of Compliance?

jwt

We have the architects cert of compliance which stipulates


"The relevant works and services thereof have been designed in substantial conformity with the Buildings Regulations made pursuant to the Building Control Act 2001"


"I made periodic inspections of "The Relevant Works" during the construction thereof AND in my opinion the construction of the same complies substantially with the Grant of Permission in paragraph 3 hereof and substantially with all The Buildings Regulations applicable thereto"

couple of other references to conditions of permission being "substantially complied with"

JWT

Kashkai

Maybe I'm thick but a dwelling thats missing a wastewater collection (septic tank) and treatment system (puraflow) that was specified in the planning permission is not "substantially compliant". I'm sure the Council wouldn't allow a dwelling like this to be occupied and have the wastewater flowing all over the rear garden with no septic tank/puraflow installed. They'd send their Environmental Health Officer round to you pdq and issue you with a warning of court proceedings for pollution.

sydthebeat

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Maybe I'm thick but a dwelling thats missing a wastewater collection (septic tank) and treatment system (puraflow) that was specified in the planning permission is not "substantially compliant". I'm sure the Council wouldn't allow a dwelling like this to be occupied and have the wastewater flowing all over the rear garden with no septic tank/puraflow installed. They'd send their Environmental Health Officer round to you pdq and issue you with a warning of court proceedings for pollution.

it could be the case that the architect refers to the dwelling alone as 'the relevant works' and includes a clause 'in so far as site works are complete'... meaning he doesnt take respoinsibility for incomplete site works.....
quite common in cases where say, entrances arent built... landscaping not done etc...

Kashkai

I'd disagree there Syd as the wastewater collection system is usually an integral part of the planning permission (it was in mine down to the part where I had to have the puraflow serviced annually) and the absence of one would mean that the finished house is not substantially compliant with the planning permission.

jwt

Well relevant works is defined at the start of the cert as....

"I was retained by Xxxxx Xxxxxxxxxxx to make periodic inspections during the construction of a development known as XXXXXXXXXX in the County of XXXXXXX such buildings or works being hereinafter referred to as "The Relevant Works"

"The Grant of Permission dated the xx xxxxxxx20xx planning register no: 20xxxxxx refers to "The Relevant Works"

Aren't these certs of a standard language?


I'll type the lot up xxxxing out names, places and dates or anything else that would identify the architect, planners or any body else or place identifiable.



JWT

sydthebeat

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I'd disagree there Syd as the wastewater collection system is usually an integral part of the planning permission (it was in mine down to the part where I had to have the puraflow serviced annually) and the absence of one would mean that the finished house is not substantially compliant with the planning permission.

im not disagreeing with this dave....., but rather pointing out a situation in which substantial compliance CAN be certified once certain addedums and stipulations are added.... and this would be if the relevant works are soley described as being the construction of the dwelling...... this probably happened in order for the product to be sod... if not, then the certifer may find himself/herself liable...

jwt, do you mind me asking which county?

No6

jwt do you mind me asking if you have paid for the house, If not then you have to insist through your solicitor that the septic tank and puraflo is installed before the money is handed over.

smashey

sydthebeat wrote: »

in which substantial compliance CAN be certified once certain addedums and stipulations are added.... and this would be if the relevant works are soley described as being the

I agree with syd here, I did one recently that had the addendum...

insofar as the relevant works are complete.

AIB had no problem with it.

jwt

Note any capitalisations, spelling errors, incorrect words e.g. assignment instead of assigned etc are deliberate copies of the original cert.

@sythebeat pm sent

@no6 - house being sold as seen hence me going through the entire house, planning, compliance, fire certs etc with a fine tooth comb. basically once we sign contracts unless I can show the vendor lied or deliberately misled me I'm cream crackered. hence much toing and froing between solicitors confirming everything in writing, at great expense no doubt.

Certificate of Compliance

I, Xxxx Xxxx, Dip. Arch. Tech. RIAI(tech) of X Xxxxxxx, Xxxxx, Co. Xxxxx certify as follows:-

1
I was retained by Xxxxx Xxxxxxxxxxx to make periodic inspections during the construction of a development known as XXXXXXXXXX in the County of XXXXXXX such buildings or works being hereinafter referred to as "The Relevant Works

2
I further certify that I visited the office of the local Planning Authority and there inspected the House Plans, Site Layout Plans, Specifications and other Drawings and documents which were represented by the Planning Authority as those on foot of which planning permission hereunder were granted.

3
The Grant of Permission dated the xx xxxxxxx20xx planning register no: 20xxxxxx refers to "The Relevant Works

4 A Fire Safety Certificate is not required because the detached dwelling houses are exempt from the section of the Building Regulations part B which dictates the necessity for an application for a Fire Safety Certificate.

6
“The Relevant Works” and services thereof have been designed in substantial conformity with the Building Regulations made pursuant to the Building Control Act, 2001 (The Building Regulations)

7
Commencement Notice of the intention to undertake “The Relevant Works” Was served on the XXth Xxxx 20XX in accordance with the Building Control Regulations 1997 and such notice contained or was accompanied by the information and particulars prescribed by said regulations.

8
I made periodic inspections of “The Relevant Works” during the construction thereof AND in my opinion the construction of the same complies substantially with the Grant of Permissions in paragraph 3 hereof and substantially with all The Building Regulations applicable thereto.

9
No Planning Permission other than that referred to at paragraph 3 aforesaid is pertinent to “The Relevant Works”.

10
The conditions of the Permissions referred to at paragraph 3 relating to “The Relevant Works” have been substantially complied with. This paragraph is not to be taken as extending to conditions for the payment of financial contributions or the giving of security for satisfactory completion compliance with which is not within my competence to certify.

11
In the event that “The Relevant Works” and the site works pertaining thereto have not been built and/or laid out exactly in accordance with the said Permission any dispirit is unlikely to affect the planning and development of the area as envisaged by the Planning Authority and expressed through such permission.

12
TAKE NOTE that this certificate is issued solely with a view to providing evidence for title purposes of the compliance of “the Relevant Works” with the requirements of Planning Legislation and of the Building Control Act, 2001 and the Regulations thereunder. Except insofar as it relates to compliance with the said requirements and “The Relevant Works” NOR does it warrant, represent or take into account any of the following matters:-
(a) the accuracy of dimensions in general save where arising out of the conditions of the Permission or the Building Regulations aforesaid.
(b) matters in respect of private rights or obligations.
(c) matters of financial contribution and bonds.
(d) development of "The Relevant Works” which may occur after the date of issue of this Certificate.


DEFINITIONS

Building Control Acts means the Building Control Act 2001 and any statutory modification or re-enactment thereof current at the date of the Commencement Notice aforesaid. “Building”, “Works” and “Construction” have the meanings respectively assignment by the Building Control Act.

“Building Regulations” means regulations made under the Building Control Act.

“Design” has the meaning assigned by the Building Control Act, but accepting such design as could, in my opinion, reasonably be outstanding pending construction stage.

“Substantial Compliance” when applied to Design means that, in my opinion, the Design of the Relevant Building or Works, is in accordance with the Building Regulations saving and excepting such deviations as would not in my opinion warrant the issue of enforcement proceedings as provide for in the Building Control Act.

“Substantial Compliance” when applied to Construction means that Construction of the Relevant Building or Works, as is evident by my inspection, is in accordance with the Building Regulations saving and excepting such deviations as would not in my opinion warrant the issue of enforcement proceedings as provide for in the Building Control Act.

THIS OPINION DOES NOT IN ANY WAY WARRANT, REPRESENT, OR TAKE INTO ACCOUNT:-

Construction carried out or changes made to Relevant Building or Works after the inspection date.

“Visual Inspection” means the Inspection of the Relevant Building or works on the Inspection Date.

No opening up was carried out.

Dated xxth Xxxxxxxx 2007

Signed

---

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxx
Dip. Arch. Tech. RIAI(tech)

stevemc01

I would get a quote for installing the system, and give the current house owner the option to either deduct this amount from the selling price of the house or install it himself.

muffler

Having read the content of the cert. of compliance then yes the septic tank and/or waste water treatment system should be installed and fully functional.

See your solicitor.

I may have to lock this because of the "legal" implications. However i will leave it open for a bit and see how the posts pan out. I would ask everyone to steer clear of commenting on anything to do with the legalities of the issue.

jwt

Just a quick follow up on this.


We renegotiated the price, didn't get the full cost of the septic tank installation reduced but reached an agreeable compromise.

All other boxes ticked and we are waiting on the other side to produce a structural indemnity form in lieu of a homebond cert as it was a self build.

Once we have that cheque will be issued and keys handed over.


JWT

RKQ

Well done, you did all the footwork and its seems to have worked out for you. (It can be frustrating, streeful and a steep learning curve) Nice to hear a happy ending.

I wish you well in your new Home...:)