advise on a dodgy sale please

a_chara

Hi All,

Not sure if i'm in the right place but if some can please help me out it'll be much appreciated, or if someone can point me in the right direction i'll be on my way. Thanks in advance.

I bought a car 1 month ago which had an airbag light on at the time of sale. I asked for this to be turned off as a condition of sale and he agreed to do so, and even wrote it on the receipt.

First i was sent to a third party to have the light turned off by the computer but it immediately came back on again, i phoned the garage and he said if i bring the car down to him he would turn it off for me. I obliged and took a day off work to call down, but rather than fix it he simply took out the bulb and told me it was fixed. Can someone please tell me if I am within my rights to deamnd a full refund?

There were also other issues with the car but i don't think I have any come back as he wrote 'sold as seen, no warranty' on the receipt, can he even do this when i'm not in the trade? Also I directly asked about some of these issues when I was viewing the car and he told me it was all fine.

If anyone can help me out here I'd really appreciate it, thanks in advance.

bazz26

a_chara wrote: »

Hi All,

Not sure if i'm in the right place but if some can please help me out it'll be much appreciated, or if someone can point me in the right direction i'll be on my way. Thanks in advance.

I bought a car 1 month ago which had an airbag light on at the time of sale. I asked for this to be turned off as a condition of sale and he agreed to do so, and even wrote it on the receipt.

First i was sent to a third party to have the light turned off by the computer but it immediately came back on again, i phoned the garage and he said if i bring the car down to him he would turn it off for me. I obliged and took a day off work to call down, but rather than fix it he simply took out the bulb and told me it was fixed. Can someone please tell me if I am within my rights to deamnd a full refund?

There were also other issues with the car but i don't think I have any come back as he wrote 'sold as seen, no warranty' on the receipt, can he even do this when i'm not in the trade? Also I directly asked about some of these issues when I was viewing the car and he told me it was all fine.

If anyone can help me out here I'd really appreciate it, thanks in advance.

I would go back to the garage you bought the car from and explain what happened. Tell them that the air bag warning light was on for a reason and you want the issue fixed, disconnecting the bulb doesn't fix the underlying problem and that a faulty safety device in the car you have just bought has you concerned for safety reasons as well as possible legal and insurance implications.

I reckon the problem could be a simple air bag sensor cable connector under one of the front seats, could be just loose, happens reguarly if there are rear passengers in the car, their feet could have kicked it loose.

What make of car is it btw?

old boy

if an item is purchased it must be able to do what it is designed to do. in your case transport you about safely

Fey!

Getan independent assessor to check out the car. Make sure they know about the removed bulb.

Then contact someone like the citizens advice bureau with the report and your receipt, as well as a statement from yourself outlining what has gone wrong with the car, and all dates, time, and subjects of any contact with the garage.

tv3

You bought the car knowing the problem and still purchased it so there for you will not get a refund.But if you got a written warranty bring it back and get it fixed.

Why did you buy it knowing there was a problem instead of letting the garage fix it first??

Darragh29

When you were buying the car, notwithstanding the verbal agreement regarding the airbag light being switched off, did you understand that you were buying it on a "sold as seen" basis, which means there is no warranty???

a_chara

Cheers for the advise lads.

Just to answer a few of ye'r questions, i know where the fault is (a wire broken in the passenger seat) and i told the garage this on friday when they were supposedly repairing the fault. Common enough fault but i priced the work in a main dealer and they wanted c300 euro parts and labour.

When i bought the car the light was on, the car was a bit dirty and needed 4 tyres and i was assured was all that is wrong with the car. So i tought it was reasonable enough if i went and valleted the car and bought new tyres (which i have since done) that this was a good deal based on what i had been told. I agreed to purchase if he turned off the light and he agreed and wrote it on the receipt.

The other real problem is that the coolant is leaking and i asked the sales guy specifically if it was leaking any coolant or oil and he said no and he had been driving the car himself for a while and it was perfect.

Surely all this is grounds for a refund?

Thanks again for ye'r help lads.

Darragh29

When you were buying the car, notwithstanding the verbal agreement regarding the airbag light being switched off, did you understand that you were buying it on a "sold as seen" basis, which means there is no warranty???

a_chara

Also i'm not sure if it was clear from my earlier post but the garage i bought it from were the ones who removed the bulb, the third party only did a diagnostics scan and turned of the light but didn't fix the fault.

I'm aware that a car sold as seen means no warranty but the light was a condition of sale so i specifically asked for this to be repaired. I did not know about the coolant leak as i was blatently lied to about this fault.

I'm not too keen on giving these guys a second go at fixing the light as they are a 2 hour drive away and they refuse to do any waork at the weekend for me so it means taking days out of my holidays. Ideally at this stage i just want my money back and cut all ties form these people.

Nonoperational

He doesnt want a warranty. He was told the airbag light would be fixed and it was written on the receipt - that should be done. As for coolant, verbal contract etc etc. Good luck with getting any satisfaction there!

jimmycrackcorm

a_chara wrote: »

Also i'm not sure if it was clear from my earlier post but the garage i bought
I'm aware that a car sold as seen means no warranty but the light was a condition of sale so i specifically asked for this to be repaired. I did not know about the coolant leak as i was blatently lied to about this fault.

If you bought it from a business then you are covered by consumer legislation and they cannot legally write "Sold as seen". Tell them they either sort it out or you get it fixed elsewhere and take them to the small claims court to recover the cost. Print out the information from the Consumer agency web site and show it to them.

peasant

EDITED the heading

(We don't do "legal" advice here, opinons is all you're getting. The only one who can give you legal advice is a solicitor, or the small claims court, as mentioned)

a_chara

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If you bought it from a business then you are covered by consumer legislation and they cannot legally write "Sold as seen". Tell them they either sort it out or you get it fixed elsewhere and take them to the small claims court to recover the cost. Print out the information from the Consumer agency web site and show it to them.

This is what i thought as well, i know there's an unwritten rule to say a garage can sell an a car 'as seen' but i would assume that rule also assumes the garage makes any faults known to the buyer, hence trade sale as such, in my opinion they broke the rule first by lying about specific questions i asked.

Technically i would assume that because i am not in the trade they cannot technically sell me a 'trade sale'?

Anyway i presume the fact that they did not meet the conditions of sale by failing to fix the a/b light that sale can be rendered void and i would be intitled to a refund?

Darragh29

a_chara wrote: »

Also i'm not sure if it was clear from my earlier post but the garage i bought it from were the.....

Irrelevant I'm afraid...

a_chara wrote: »

I'm aware that a car sold as seen means no warranty.

Sold as seen means exactly that OP. The price you paid for the car reflects the fact that you have bought it as you've seen it.

If you take it some on the back of a recovery truck and find when it lands in your driveway that there is no engine in the car, that's your loss.

What sold as seen means is that you are a trade buyer and that any work that is required to make the car legally roadworthy, you will attend to this work or have someone do it on your behalf.

You can't have it every way OP to be fair, getting a car for trade price and then expecting the garage to stand over it. The problems you have here would easily be resolved by a mechanic if he/she bought that car... Sold as seen is only for trade buyers. If you are not a mechanic, you should not be buying a sold as seen car... I understand that you thought that you could buy a car on a "sold as seen" basis and thinking that problems would be sorted after the transaction. I'm surprised a garage sold you this car on this basis, most dealers I know wouldn't dream of selling a sold as seen car to a retailer because this is the usual outcome...

Anan1

Darragh29 wrote: »

Sold as seen means exactly that OP. The price you paid for the car reflects the fact that you have bought it as you've seen it.

If you take it some on the back of a recovery truck and find when it lands in your driveway that there is no engine in the car, that's your loss.

What sold as seen means is that you are a trade buyer and that any work that is required to make the car legally roadworthy, you will attend to this work or have someone do it on your behalf.

You can't have it every way OP to be fair, getting a car for trade price and then expecting the garage to stand over it. The problems you have here would easily be resolved by a mechanic if he/she bought that car... Sold as seen is only for trade buyers. If you are not a mechanic, you should not be buying a sold as seen car... I understand that you thought that you could buy a car on a "sold as seen" basis and thinking that problems would be sorted after the transaction. I'm surprised a garage sold you this car on this basis, most dealers I know wouldn't dream of selling a sold as seen car to a retailer because this is the usual outcome...

How does that square with this quote from the OP's first post?

a_chara wrote: »

I bought a car 1 month ago which had an airbag light on at the time of sale. I asked for this to be turned off as a condition of sale and he agreed to do so, and even wrote it on the receipt.

Darragh29

a_chara wrote: »

i know there's an unwritten rule to say a garage can sell an a car 'as seen' but i would assume that rule also assumes the garage makes any faults known to the buyer, hence trade sale as such, in my opinion they broke the rule first by lying about specific questions i asked.

Nope, the only rule that matters is the Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act, 1980. This deals with well known & often heard phrases on this forum like, "merchantable quality", "fit for purpose", etc.

This act only covers disputes between a business and a retailer. If you are buying a sold as seen car, then you are no longer buying as a retailer, you are buying as a trader or a person operating in the motor trade and you have most likely signed a statement to this effect, (check the small print). There are no unwritten rules or urban myths that matter here.

If you are buying on a sold as seen basis, it doesn't matter what you ask or what you are told, you are buying the car as you see it standing or otherwise in front of you and any remedies you might expect or receive subsequent to your purchase are given on a goodwill basis only.

Sorry this probably isn't the news you wanted to hear, but it is the reality of the situation...

a_chara

Darragh29 wrote: »

Irrelevant I'm afraid...



Sold as seen means exactly that OP. The price you paid for the car reflects the fact that you have bought it as you've seen it.

If you take it some on the back of a recovery truck and find when it lands in your driveway that there is no engine in the car, that's your loss.

What sold as seen means is that you are a trade buyer and that any work that is required to make the car legally roadworthy, you will attend to this work or have someone do it on your behalf.

You can't have it every way OP to be fair, getting a car for trade price and then expecting the garage to stand over it. The problems you have here would easily be resolved by a mechanic if he/she bought that car... Sold as seen is only for trade buyers. If you are not a mechanic, you should not be buying a sold as seen car... I understand that you thought that you could buy a car on a "sold as seen" basis and thinking that problems would be sorted after the transaction. I'm surprised a garage sold you this car on this basis, most dealers I know wouldn't dream of selling a sold as seen car to a retailer because this is the usual outcome...

Thanks Darragh fully understand this and to be honest if it wasn't for the fact that they deliberately lied to my face about the issues i openly asked about, i would be the first to put my hands up and just get on with it and fix the problem, i would never expect the garage to stand over it if they had not lied to me about specific facts.

Anyway the whole warranty issue is a side point for me, the main issue for me is that they agreed to fix a fault and i have written proof of that fact, they failed to do so and the fact that they tried to fool me by removing the bulb gives me great concerns about the credibility of this paricular garage and the safety of the cars they sell, i am even contemplating reporting this garage to simi over the issue.

Darragh29

Anan1 wrote: »

How does that square with this quote from the OP's first post?

And the light was turned off, so whatever obligation existed has been met by the seller. The light came back on again, entirely expected and if the buyer was in the trade, he/she would have known that this would have happened, but sold as seen, therefore your problem.

In fairness to the seller, sold as seen means no warranty, either expressed or implied. If they undertook to turn the airbag light off and turn it off and they know well that it will come back on again, they are not to blame for this.

This is what gets to me about the motor trade, is that there is this big grey area, which is grand, until there is a problem... I know a guy who works in a main dealership and sells cars as sold as seen to trade. One day he sold a car to a mechanic as "sold as seen". Something was wrong with the car and the guy who bought the car ended up having to put a new turbo in the car. He came back to the showroom who sold him the car looking for the price of a replacement turbo.

He was told that he bought it sold as seen so he wouldn't be getting a cent and now he cannot buy a car as sold as seen from this garage because they won't sell a car to him because he is considered to be a messer to deal with.

Darragh29

a_chara wrote: »

Thanks Darragh fully understand this and to be honest if it wasn't for the fact that they deliberately lied to my face about the issues i openly asked about, i would be the first to put my hands up and just get on with it and fix the problem, i would never expect the garage to stand over it if they had not lied to me about specific facts.

Anyway the whole warranty issue is a side point for me, the main issue for me is that they agreed to fix a fault and i have written proof of that fact, they failed to do so and the fact that they tried to fool me by removing the bulb gives me great concerns about the credibility of this paricular garage and the safety of the cars they sell, i am even contemplating reporting this garage to simi over the issue.

I completely understand OP that you feel that they misled you. In fact they have operated unprofessionally in my opinion by selling you a car on a sold as seen basis with strings attached regarding the airbag light. There should be no misunderstanding about sold as seen from a sellers perspective. If the 4 wheels fall off and the engine and transmission fall out when you leave the garage, that's just a pity...

From reading your OP, the seller undertook to turn the light off, which is a different action from undertaking to resolve the defect that caused the light to come on in the first place.

Removing the bulb is the work of an utter cowboy to be honest OP.

Anan1

I dunno, Darragh. I used to work for a main dealership and, while I fully agree that anything sold into the trade was quite literally sold as seen, i'd never have dreamt of selling a trade car to someone who wasn't in the trade. The whole point of a trade sale is that there would never be a written undertaking to sort out anything. This leads me to believe that this seller was actually trying to retail the car without fulfilling the normal legal requirements.

edit: Just saw your last post now, I think we're singing from the same page here.

Ferris

a_chara wrote: »

Just to answer a few of ye'r questions, i know where the fault is (a wire broken in the passenger seat) and i told the garage this on friday when they were supposedly repairing the fault. Common enough fault but i priced the work in a main dealer and they wanted c300 euro parts and labour.

I'll make a guess that this is a VW Golf MK4. I got my mechanic to fix the exact same problem and he charged me 35euro.

xt40

would it not be simplest to just rejoin the 2 bits of broken wire under the seat and then forget about it.

Ferris

xt40 wrote: »

would it not be simplest to just rejoin the 2 bits of broken wire under the seat and then forget about it.

You have to reset the ecu to turn the light off and rearm the airbag.

Darragh29

Ferris wrote: »

You have to reset the ecu to turn the light off and rearm the airbag.

It might not be the wire under the seat. Just because it happened on one VW Golf doesn't mean it is the same problem on a different car. It could be the pre-tensioner for that seat, it could be a wiring problem, it could be the airbag itself, it could be anything. That's not the issue. The issue is that because it was bought as sold as seen, it's the OP's problem now. That's my take on it anyway...

Ferris

Darragh29 wrote: »

It might not be the wire under the seat. Just because it happened on one VW Golf doesn't mean it is the same problem on a different car. It could be the pre-tensioner for that seat, it could be a wiring problem, it could be the airbag itself, it could be anything. That's not the issue. The issue is that because it was bought as sold as seen, it's the OP's problem now. That's my take on it anyway...

The OP mentioned that the car was valeted after they bought it. This involves moving the seat forwards and backwards to their limits which, in a mk4 golf, traps the seat wiring loom and breaks the wires. The OP mentioned that it was a common fault with his car, which it is on the mk4 golf.

My point was that simply getting it fixed by a good independant mechanic for a small sum would be a lot less hassle than chasing the dealer to do work that he may or may not be liable to perform, argueing over verbal agreements etc.

Darragh29

Ferris wrote: »

The OP mentioned that the car was valeted after they bought it. This involves moving the seat forwards and backwards to their limits which, in a mk4 golf, traps the seat wiring loom and breaks the wires. The OP mentioned that it was a common fault with his car, which it is on the mk4 golf.

My point was that simply getting it fixed by a good independant mechanic for a small sum would be a lot less hassle than chasing the dealer to do work that he may or may not be liable to perform, argueing over verbal agreements etc.

I agree he can get it fixed by an indy or whatever, but I think he is wasting his time arguing with the seller over this. The only thing I'd do there is make him put the bulb back in. That's just a joke that is, taking out the bulb...

Ferris

Darragh29 wrote: »

I agree he can get it fixed by an indy or whatever, but I think he is wasting his time arguing with the seller over this. The only thing I'd do there is make him put the bulb back in. That's just a joke that is, taking out the bulb...

I just wonder how accurate that is, it'd surely be more work doing that than fixing the car properly.

Maybe the seller doesn't have a fault reader and thats why he took out the bulb. Either way sounds a bit dodgy alright.

a_chara

Ferris wrote: »

The OP mentioned that the car was valeted after they bought it. This involves moving the seat forwards and backwards to their limits which, in a mk4 golf, traps the seat wiring loom and breaks the wires. The OP mentioned that it was a common fault with his car, which it is on the mk4 golf.

My point was that simply getting it fixed by a good independant mechanic for a small sum would be a lot less hassle than chasing the dealer to do work that he may or may not be liable to perform, argueing over verbal agreements etc.

Guys the car is a BMW, the dealers told me there are fibre wires in the seat which commonly break, 90 for the part 190 for labour, i know i can get this done cheaper by a local mechanic but that's not the point.

Really ripped off that not only did the garage lie directly about the condition of the car but then removed a safety aspect of the vehicle which i feel is appaling behaviour from any reputable garge. People will argue that it's only a wire on the s/b pre tentioners and that it doesn't effect the airbag's functionality, however the fact that the bulb is no longer in situ means the car will NEVER pick up any futre a/b faults which could have potentially fatal consequeces.

Ferris just to clear up, it wasn't a verbal but a written agreement altohough Darragh does make a good point with relation to this point in that the light was technically turned out (for 5 mins) but came back on again. Also the light was on when the car was bought so it wasn't something which happened when the car was valleted

As I said before i'd really just prefer to return the car at this stage and cut all ties with these people, however taking on board what Darragh has said i'm really not sure where i stand, i think i'll put in a call to consumer affairs and decide where to take it from there.

Thanks for all ye'r help lads.

Darragh29

Ferris wrote: »

I just wonder how accurate that is, it'd surely be more work doing that than fixing the car properly.

Maybe the seller doesn't have a fault reader and thats why he took out the bulb. Either way sounds a bit dodgy alright.

Yeah, he was probably assuming that the seat belt pre-tensioner was the problem and they are expensive enough, usually around 200 Euro. It's hard to believe in 2008 that there is a garage out there that is removing bulbs to hide a problem. If that car was involved in a serious crash and the airbag failed to deploy, etc, etc, etc. That guy could end up doing prison time or losing his house for removing the bulb...

xt40

the wires arent in the seat. they are underneath it.
the reason they break is they get caught in the runners as the seat is adjusted forward and backward. on my rover 75 (90% bmw) the ecu didnt need resetting for this.

audismelly

sorry all the op wanted was the airbag light problem fixed, the only thing he asked for.
he got a receipt for this.


if pulling the bulb out is acceptable then these guys are undefendable whether its a trade sale or not.

no wonder people are suspicious

Darragh29

audismelly wrote: »

sorry all the op wanted was the airbag light problem fixed, the only thing he asked for.
he got a receipt for this.


if pulling the bulb out is acceptable then these guys are undefendable whether its a trade sale or not.

no wonder people are suspicious

From what I've read, the seller undertook to turn the light off and this was done. Sold as seen means whatever goes wrong with the car is simply not their problem... You can't have it every way...

audismelly

Darragh29 wrote: »

From what I've read, the seller undertook to turn the light off and this was done. Sold as seen means whatever goes wrong with the car is simply not their problem... You can't have it every way...

cant have it every way.pulling the bulb out isnt exactly having it every way,even from a safety aspect its wrong.

maybe op the best way is word of mouth , tell everyone you meet about your garage.
theres enough good honest garages and mechanics out there for other people not to have to deal with there lies and lack of safety.... trade sale or not

Darragh29

audismelly wrote: »

cant have it every way.pulling the bulb out isnt exactly having it every way,even from a safety aspect its wrong.

maybe op the best way is word of mouth , tell everyone you meet about your garage.
theres enough good honest garages and mechanics out there for other people not to have to deal with there lies and lack of safety.... trade sale or not

Look, when your dealing with a garage that is taking out a bulb to fix a problem, you are pis*ing into the wind. Forget them and get it sorted elsewhere and chalk it up to experience...

audismelly

Darragh29 wrote: »

Look, when your dealing with a garage that is taking out a bulb to fix a problem, you are pis*ing into the wind. Forget them and get it sorted elsewhere and chalk it up to experience...

agreed.

Darragh29

audismelly wrote: »

agreed.

If this is all that's wrong with this car after being in a garage that has that approach to vehicle maintenance, the OP is extremely lucky...

landcruiserfj62

Is it even possible to take out an airbag warning lamp "bulb"??? I doubt it, but id like to hear from any BMW techs out there on that point???

Also, like Darragh said many times, asking a sales man to have a warning light "turned off" and actually asking him to get it fixed are 2 totally different things!

Possible scenario: sales man phones BMW dealer and asks them to quickly put out the light, customer drives to Dealership, mechanic at dealership turns out light knowing its a waste of bloody time and thinks to himself what arseholes some sales people are, and wishes they wouldnt waste his time like this!!!! sorry for the total rant, couldnt help it lol