Should Gardai be allowed to join RDF

djtechnics1210

Always wondered about this topic. I know a lot of firemen, ambulance and i have heard of prison officers in it, but serving Gardai are not allowed enlist. I can see where it could cause problems such as firearms residue kits etc, but that is easily overcome. I know lots of serving members that would love to join it if they were allowed. I know a lot of Gardai that left RDF as NCO and officers, these members leaving was probably a great loss to unit experience wise.
Interesting to hear members ideas on this one

metman

You can join the TA here if you're in the Police but its a case of one in one out, so the Police have a limit on people who can be in the reserve forces at any one time, so sometimes people have to wait until a vacancy frees up and someone leaves the TA before they can join. The idea behind this being that the Police won't be left under strength in a crisis.

As a TA soldier you will do tours in Iraq and Afghanistan as the TA is fully integrated into the regular Army. This presents additional stresses on police officers and their families. However it also provides additional skills and experience for officers. Pros and cons.

I don't see why this system couldn't be put in place in Ireland but until such time as the RDF function as part of the PDF (as the TA do here) I don't see a need for it.

djtechnics1210

I know some RDF units have worked with PDF units, but only on small things, i dont think there'll ever be a day when RDF will travel over seas.
Quick query Metman if ya would oblige.... which takes priority if for example something dose happen such as Iraq. Do you go with TA first or stay with police seeing as its your full time job. do police police officers still receive gratuity/training pay by TA. Money from camps/training is a nice sum every year. Wonder are there any many officers in TA SAS atm

metman

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Quick query Metman if ya would oblige.... which takes priority if for example something dose happen such as Iraq. Do you go with TA first or stay with police seeing as its your full time job.

My mate in work is a Sergeant in the RMP and has now done 2 tours of Iraq and is going on his second to Afghanistan next year. He was a regular soldier prior to joining the police. For TA purposes the army role takes priority and you can be mobilised if the need arises. Your job is protected and the army will match your civvy rate of pay.

do police police officers still receive gratuity/training pay by TA. Money from camps/training is a nice sum every year.

Yes they do, they get regular army rates of pay for training and a tax free bounty if they meet their training targets.

Wonder are there any many officers in TA SAS atm

No idea. But as there's a reserve special forces group (SAS, SBS, Marines) I imagine there must be some.

djtechnics1210

Id say your mate brought a lot of experience and ability back to work when he returned from tours. Great credit due to him for serving out there, its not a nice place to be.

Victor

The reasoning was that in a time of emergency the DF and the Garda had separate functions.

djtechnics1210

But surely they could change that now. English seem to cope just fine

Eru

Victor wrote: »

The reasoning was that in a time of emergency the DF and the Garda had separate functions.

Our roles overlap more than a lot of countries out there. National security for an example.

In this regard I think mixing between the two would benefit both agencies as can be seen in other european countries where the military and police train together but then seperate when it comes to their primary function. This would allow both to have training and some experience in both sectors and could therefore be called into assist each other depending on whats needed.

At the moment we have 8000 fulltime soldiers, how many on UN duty and cash escorts a day? There is a lot of trained personel out there that could be put to better use.

So I wouldnt have any issue with Gardai or soldiers being reserves in the opposite force.

Victor

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

At the moment we have 8000 fulltime soldiers, how many on UN duty and cash escorts a day?

Only about 50 on UN duty at the moment, although there are several hundred on EU duty. For every one on foreign duty, you need two more allowing for recovery and training.

I can't imagine anything more than a few dozen on escort duty on any given day, but there are other ATCP duties like Portlaoise and the Central Bank.

One of the points about barracks closures is that it would reduce the number involved in guarding / staffing barracks, each barracks will have B.O.S., B.O.O., guard, etc.

Eru

Victor wrote: »

Only about 50 on UN duty at the moment, although there are several hundred on EU duty. For every one on foreign duty, you need two more allowing for recovery and training.

I can't imagine anything more than a few dozen on escort duty on any given day, but there are other ATCP duties like Portlaoise and the Central Bank.

One of the points about barracks closures is that it would reduce the number involved in guarding / staffing barracks, each barracks will have B.O.S., B.O.O., guard, etc.

Exactly, trained and disciplined soldiers sitting around or doing the same training over and over. While Im sure there are soldiers who would not want to have anything to do with policing / civil operations and vice versa I believe that even if the military worked with Gardai in a voluntary manner it would still bulk up numbers and resources.

14000 Gardai + even only 4000 soldiers would still be a good boost in man power on the streets. 8000 soldiers with say 7000 Gardai doubles the armies manpower in times of crisis. How can this be a bad thing?

Of course both sides would need to remember their places and who is in charge but I wouldnt see any problems there. Greater good and all

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

manpower in times of crisis.

But in reality what crisis could we be faced with. War? Some sort of invasion by another country? I couldn't see any of these happening.

The only crisis I can see is a natural disaster and in that case we couldn't second a Garda to the Army or RDF because each organisation would be deployed anyway. AFAIK there is already a plan in place for a national emergency to cover natural disasters.

I do see a point to cross training to gain experience on both sides such as soldiers who would be on peace-keeping missions having experience in public order or training Gardai in the movement and housing of a massive amount of people again say in times of a natural disaster.

Victor

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

14000 Gardai + even only 4000 soldiers would still be a good boost in man power on the streets. 8000 soldiers with say 7000 Gardai doubles the armies manpower in times of crisis. How can this be a bad thing?

Stop walting. :pac:

FGR

They'd be too afraid to have uniform Gardai near firearms when doing duties as RDF..and not even in their Garda Uniform. Imagine the media uproar! :rolleyes:

Eru

TheNog wrote: »

But in reality what crisis could we be faced with. War? Some sort of invasion by another country? I couldn't see any of these happening.

True enough but then, why have 8000 soldiers in the first place? Remembering that we dont have any form of martial law in Ireland.

seanieboy77

i couldnt see the R.D.F. being let overseas at the moment. right now theres only a declaration of interest being circulated as to who would like to go overseas among them and that is only among integrated personel.

Until such time as R.D.F. are made accountable and take responsibility for actions that they do i.e.

when there meant to come up on field days and don't turn up there not accountable or marked absent on the barrack gate like a regular soldier is.

He can be brought in front of his C.O. and given a dressing down for some disiplinary matter but he cant really get charged or it means nothing to him as it never hits his pocket like what will happen to a regular soldier.

An R.D.F. person can't be detailed to go on an exercise for example if an R.D.F. man volunteers for a detail and doesn't turn up well one of the regular cadre staff will have to do his job at short notice therefore they can't be relied upon. and in the context of overseas what way will it work between regular and R.d.F. personell

eroo

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Our roles overlap more than a lot of countries out there. National security for an example.
PDF roles overlap, RDF do not and never will.
In this regard I think mixing between the two would benefit both agencies as can be seen in other european countries where the military and police train together but then seperate when it comes to their primary function. This would allow both to have training and some experience in both sectors and could therefore be called into assist each other depending on whats needed.
Can't ever see RDF having to provide any serious assistance to AGS unless they are trained in public order.
At the moment we have 8000 fulltime soldiers, how many on UN duty and cash escorts a day? There is a lot of trained personel out there that could be put to better use.
Each has a role. Guard duty to live fire exercises to sweeping the leaves at the gate. All part of the job for them. Just because they aren't fighting doesn't mean they are not doing anything.
So I wouldnt have any issue with Gardai or soldiers being reserves in the opposite force.No offense to anyone, but some of the RDF and PDF personnel I have met and spoken to, I wouldn't let them have any more authority than they are already allowed.

The big thing is this: Gardai cannot commit to the organisation. They will be on shift and may not be able to turn up for parade nights or weekends.

I have stated elsewhere what I think the RDF shouild be used for: posted in strategically placed coastal Observation Post's to help combat weapons/drugs etc smuggling.

My 2c

Eru

Granted Eroo but sweeping leaves isnt really the best use of a trained soldiers time is it? I would presume they arent allowed just sit around all day but is it a case of making busy work just to keep them busy?

Oh I should also state that really I see the benefits of co-operation between fulltime Gardai and defence forces. Instead of dragging detectives away from patrols and detective work for checkpoints you could use the PDF. Instead of Gardai on post duty use soldiers in the embassies, dail, etc.

Im not suggesting this is a great plan or the best way of doing things, I just think under the present circumstances in this country and both forces, its a decent solution to man power issues.

eroo

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Granted Eroo but sweeping leaves isnt really the best use of a trained soldiers time is it? I would presume they arent allowed just sit around all day but is it a case of making busy work just to keep them busy?
I don't know the full workings of PDF in barracks, but they are given something to do for a reason.
Oh I should also state that really I see the benefits of co-operation between fulltime Gardai and defence forces. Instead of dragging detectives away from patrols and detective work for checkpoints you could use the PDF. Instead of Gardai on post duty use soldiers in the embassies, dail, etc.
You want fully armed soldiers on checkpoint duty? That isn't even done regularly in NI anymore! Keep policing duties to the police force. Also for checkpoints, you'd have to have PDF lads doing shift work seeing as checkpoints aren't done at set times. Try asking an 18y/o Pte to man a checkpoint at 2am on a Sunday morning!
Im not suggesting this is a great plan or the best way of doing things, I just think under the present circumstances in this country and both forces, its a decent solution to man power issues.

As I said, military and police have their separate roles(bar ATCP etc) and I think things should be kept that way.

However, I have always thought we should have military personnel at ALL of our embassies for guard duty etc, as well as at the Dail. I would be all for that.

djtechnics1210

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Oh I should also state that really I see the benefits of co-operation between fulltime Gardai and defence forces. Instead of dragging detectives away from patrols and detective work for checkpoints you could use the PDF. Instead of Gardai on post duty use soldiers in the embassies, dail, etc.

Im not suggesting this is a great plan or the best way of doing things, I just think under the present circumstances in this country and both forces, its a decent solution to man power issues.

I fully agree karlito, you see the amount of detective wasted everyday in dublin doin armed checkpoints in divisions, fair enough management will say armed members are out on patrols but really their stuck on checkpoints. I think PDF on checkpoints would be brilliant but i suppose the bleeding hearts will be moaning then bout martial law etc etc :rolleyes:. PDF/Garda checkpoints worked very well on border etc. If PDF were on embassies it would free up an awful lot of armed members.

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Of course both sides would need to remember their places and who is in charge but I wouldnt see any problems there. Greater good and all

Sounds like it's time for a Dance-Off !
Lets get 'em girls!!!

deadwood

eroo wrote: »

They will be on shift and may not be able to turn up for parade nights or weekends.

Ooh I loooOOOOoove parades. Music, sweeties, Massey Fergusons. I'd dust off me old FCA geansai.

Ah, I remember the days....Finner camp, Pepes night club in b'Undorain. .303s bursting my lip open while the smell of cordite filled my little lungs. Showers with the lads.....

I was really annoyed I had to leave when I joined the Civil Power. I'd be a 3 star by now.

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

True enough but then, why have 8000 soldiers in the first place? Remembering that we dont have any form of martial law in Ireland.

Possibly left over from the bad days up north. Can't see this number of soldiers being kept for much longer.

Did ye ever hear about the national plan to effectively cut off sections of the country if the Republic was invaded by the British or if there was a major terrorist incident? Think it was devised back in the early 1970's along with the bunkers that were built for the government.

pa990

TheNog wrote: »

Did ye ever hear about the national plan to effectively cut off sections of the country if the Republic was invaded by the British .

The Pale ????!!!

TheNog

That was the secondary national plan to keep the dubs in their proper place - Dublin. Should have been implemented when they started moving down the country. :D

deadwood

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

I fully agree karlito, you see the amount of detective wasted everyday in dublin doin armed checkpoints in divisions,

Those bloody branch lads in their Louis Copeland sportsjacket & Farah shlack combo's drinking on the job. Bloody disgrace.
Keep the boozy out of the Uzi I say.

djtechnics1210

deadwood wrote: »

Those bloody branch lads in their Louis Copeland sportsjacket & Farah shlack combo's drinking on the job. Bloody disgrace.
Keep the boozy out of the Uzi I say.

Fallin out in front of cars

deadwood

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Fallin out in front of cars

You're right djtechnics.
They should keep their petty squabbles to themselves.

Just to swing this back on topic. Is there anything to stop a gada being a retained firefighter, part time coastguard, RNLI volunteer, civil deeefence etc.?

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

You're right djtechnics.
They should keep their petty squabbles to themselves.

Just to swing this back on topic. Is there anything to stop a gada being a retained firefighter, part time coastguard, RNLI volunteer, civil deeefence etc.?

You would presume so as your emergency services already and therefore not available for call out.

ANyone got the list of prohibited activities?

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

ANyone got the list of prohibited activities?

I don't have the Code on me, karl. Just happy to see you.;)

Off hand (stop sniggering at the back) any occupation requiring a licence granted by the courts is off-limits for "spare-time activities" but I don't know if there's any reference to other emergency/voluntary bodies.

eroo

deadwood wrote: »

I don't have the Code on me, karl. Just happy to see you.;)

Off hand (stop sniggering at the back) any occupation requiring a licence granted by the courts is off-limits for "spare-time activities" but I don't know if there's any reference to other emergency/voluntary bodies.

One of my Cpl's is an EMT, so I guess other ES personnel are allowed.

yayamark

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You would presume so as your emergency services already and therefore not available for call out.

ANyone got the list of prohibited activities?

What was that one about driving a school bus?