Off duty use of equipment

Eru

I little one I have pondered lately, yes yes I know its sad and I need to relax but still interesting I think.

On the occasions where you bring equipment home, I for example sometimes travel directly to a post and back again without going to the station so on those occasions I will have my asp and cuffs already on the belt. Is there a specific circular or case law if, while off duty you were to use your baton / cuffs?

Im not talking about kinky stuff before Deadwood goes there or indeed illegal use but say your the victim of crime, a break in or U/T? If the s/o is inside your kitchen or in the progress of hitwiring your beautiful mean machine, can you use your baton and cuff the dick until the local lads arrive?

Opinions....

jim o doom

I have no legal background, but my gut instinct is that you would almost certainly get away with it - like you're a gard - who's going to stop ya?

santosubito

Sure aren't full gardai always, technically, on duty - unlike the reserves?

Paulzx

Surely reasonable force and self defence can be applied to any situation whether you are a Garda on or off duty or a normal citizen of the state. A normal householder who tie wraps a violent burglars hands or restrains him in order to protect himself would in my opinion be no different to an off duty Garda using his cuffs for the same reason.

As with the previous poster i do not have a legal background but my understanding is that if you can justify your actions under the laws of self defence you have acted legally.

Maybe i'm completely wrong but no doubt a few legal boffins will put us straight

metman

This topic comes up here from time to time. As you can travel on your ID to and from work on the trains, the train guard knows there's a police officer on board so if there's a problem you could be called upon and indeed duty bound to act. So would you be covered carrying your baton, cuffs (or even CS) to be properly equipped for this eventuality. I think the answer is no. If you're carrying your asp off-duty on the off-chance you need to use it, you could still be arrested for being in possession of an offensive weapon. However, if you just happened to have it on you (say you were doing officer safety training and were going directly home) and got involved I would have thought you'd be covered, same as if you're home with your kit for whatever reason and you needed to get involved.

However I'd be very wary of getting involved off-duty unless it was an absolute necessity.

Here anyone can carry handcuffs as its not an offence to have a pair of cuffs on you.

TheNog

Thats actually a very good question. I am sometimes detailed to work post and bring my gear home with me.

Tbh I couldn't see a problem with using your gear as long as the situation demanded it such as witnessing a burglary, robbery, theft etc. Your gear, uniform and ID card as still property of the State but it is mentioned in the statute book and in the Code that a Garda can produce ID when off duty or in plainclothes.

Also if you witness above acts being committed and use or have your equipment on you, you are still covered under law because you use that gear for work. Same as a carpet layer would use the defence of having a stanley knife on his person.

The only problem I could see would maybe a Super who wouldnt like the idea at all but having said that he would have to be bad to go after you if you had arrested a criminal.

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

On the occasions where you bring equipment home, I for example sometimes travel directly to a post and back again without going to the station so on those occasions I will have my asp and cuffs already on the belt. Is there a specific circular or case law if, while off duty you were to use your baton / cuffs?...

You could be possibly leaving yourself open to the offence of possession of an off/weap in the case of an ASP/Baton. Assault, if you were to use them as you are off duty.

It's like the scenario of the butcher going home from work carrying his knives, concealed. He would have a justifiable reason to carry them if stopped where as a local slag heading about town with a knife wouldn't.

If this is commonplace for you to carry your equipment you would be better off getting a letter of exemption from your Super as a safeguard. I know this is what the Met do in these circumstances when officers have to move to different stations within their Borough for short periods & the BOCU Commander issues this letter. Not sure on the policy here but officers are allocated lockers in the Met to store their gear/uniform as travelling in half blues is not favoured either.

Also it is not advisable to carry them on your person, concealed in a shoulderbag would be the better option. Go to work unidentifiable, leave work unidentifiable.

Eru

Trojan911 wrote: »

You could be possibly leaving yourself open to the offence of possession of an off/weap in the case of an ASP/Baton. Assault, if you were to use them as you are off duty.

It's like the scenario of the butcher going home from work carrying his knives, concealed. He would have a justifiable reason to carry them if stopped where as a local slag heading about town with a knife wouldn't.

If this is commonplace for you to carry your equipment you would be better off getting a letter of exemption from your Super as a safeguard. I know this is what the Met do in these circumstances when officers have to move to different stations within their Borough for short periods & the BOCU Commander issues this letter. Not sure on the policy here but officers are allocated lockers in the Met to store their gear/uniform as travelling in half blues is not favoured either.

Also it is not advisable to carry them on your person, concealed in a shoulderbag would be the better option. Go to work unidentifiable, leave work unidentifiable.

I dont mean when wandering around the street. The scenario is having them in my home and having to use them if my property or person is under threat.

Im not worried about a charge of carrying as its to and from work, its no different to lads going to court on days off or croke park, etc.

What Im thinking off is where you, through no fault of your own become the IP. It happens to us as much as anyone else, cars or house being taken or broken into, etc

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I dont mean when wandering around the street. The scenario is having them in my home and having to use them if my property or person is under threat.

I suppose, it depends on whether you are allowed / if you informed a supervisor of their movements from the station to your H/A. AGS might not approve the equipment leaving the station to go elsewhere, other than on patrol, without prior permission. They may turn a blind eye to it when nothing happens but when the sh*t hits the fan, they may adopt the "He shouldn't have had them at home" stance.

Other than that you would have to justify their use on a perp, just like anyone else. I would run it by a skipper or Fed/Rep if I were you.

Additional sentence for #7: The BOCU's letter would be more for the carrying home of CS spray.

ScubaDave

I dont believe the code states anything about leaving your baton om the station.

Also, a garda may use reasonable force to deal with situations - their is no mention of a garda on duty.

When i'm working a few days in a row as station orderly, id have my asp on my standard trouser belt going to and from work. I'd have no hesitation in using it if i felt the need was there!

Trojan911

ScubaDave wrote: »

When i'm working a few days in a row as station orderly, id have my asp on my standard trouser belt going to and from work. I'd have no hesitation in using it if i felt the need was there!

Sure you might do this & no doubt many others do the same, but to be on the safe side I would check it out as to whether it is allowed.

Out of curiosity, what law gives you the right to carry an offensive weapon off duty?

FGR

The only way I could see it being clean cut is if you 'formed the opinion' and made the arrest yourself. The only problem would be getting the local super to sanction that OT form.

timmywex

It was always my understanding that gardai were always on duty? Just not working at whatever time, and thats why they can be called in at short notice or have leave terminated etc...?

Turner

Perfectly OK.

Deal with the situation, identify yourself as a garda on duty, arrest/crack yer man with the asp or whatever.

As soon as you are finished ring your staiton and asked to be marked on duty at whatever time it happened, have it recorded in the diary or command and control (dublin).

Therefor any civil actions taken against you the state will cover you as you were on duty.

FGR

Would this logic apply to the PSNI's use of Firearms or the inevitable arrival of Tasers?

Holsten

Do Garda get take home cars like in the US?

FGR

Holsten wrote: »

Do Garda get take home cars like in the US?

If Only! I'd take a Highway Patrol Issue Dodge Charger home any day!

djtechnics1210

Holsten wrote: »

Do Garda get take home cars like in the US?

Depends on unit

ScubaDave

Trojan911 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what law gives you the right to carry an offensive weapon off duty?

What law says we can carry it ON DUTY? If i recall there is no mention of on or off duty.

djtechnics1210

ScubaDave wrote: »

What law says we can carry it ON DUTY? If i recall there is no mention of on or off duty.

Detectives are allowed to carry their personal issue firearm with them at all times on or off duty. This doesn't mean their gonna get arrested for havin a firearm on them. In the case of the offensive weapon, every aspect would have to be looked at, i personally don't think anything would be said if member used it affecting arrest etc. But then again every job haas the one member that will take it to far and bring it to the pub with them or somethin stupid like that:D

Trojan911

ScubaDave wrote: »

What law says we can carry it ON DUTY? If i recall there is no mention of on or off duty.

An officer would have an exemption whilst on duty just like they are exempt to proceed, with caution, through a red ATS, albeit they are still responsible for their actions & open to prosecution like anyone else if a collision occurs because of their actions.

Off duty they cannot proceed through a red ATS & have to comply just like any other MOP.

I ran the OP's question by a chap I know yesterday, who is a serving member & he was of the opinion that an officer would get into serious trouble if one was used whilst the officer was off duty & in possession of one.

Chief--- wrote: »

Perfectly OK.

Deal with the situation, identify yourself as a garda on duty, arrest/crack yer man with the asp or whatever.

As soon as you are finished ring your staiton and asked to be marked on duty at whatever time it happened, have it recorded in the diary or command and control (dublin).

Therefor any civil actions taken against you the state will cover you as you were on duty.

And this is the Gospel? To be on the safe side get it checked out by a skipper or above so you are covered in the event of the worst possible scenario. Run it by your Fed/Rep.

delly

Holsten wrote: »

Do Garda get take home cars like in the US?

A relation of mine works in a 2 man part time station and takes the marked car home most of the time, although I'm not sure if thats officially endorsed.

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

can you use your baton and cuff the dick ?

Opinions....

I'm kinky?

timmywex

delly wrote: »

A relation of mine works in a 2 man part time station and takes the marked car home most of the time, although I'm not sure if thats officially endorsed.

Yeh, my dad would do that aswell, take the car home when on nights and working early in the morning or whatever, cant see any probs with it either, means the car is possibly more secure, if its from a part time station and the garda is on patrol on his/her way to/from work, increasing bvisability!!

metman

I know quite a few dog handlers who have both marked and unmarked police vehicles that they keep at their home address. I, personally, would rather not advertise when I'm home or at work!

Heckler

Is it not a bit of a moot point ? I am in no way connected to the ES but I would think that if you had your onduty equipment with you and something happened you would use it without thought.

E.G. You are at home asleep with your wife and 2 kids and a skanger breaks in and you wake up. I hardly think a serving guard is going to disregard his baton for fear of being prosecuted and pick up a hurley instead. Makes no sense.

I keep a certain self-protection item next to my bed and if I'm in fear for myself or my loved ones I'll use it and damn the consequences. There is no rational thought under stress. People don't think "oh, if I hit him with this I may hurt or kill him, so i'll put it down and give him what he wants". People react. If it means protecting my family I'd gladly go to prison.

I rejoiced when I heard the fella who tried to rob the shop recently got killed with his own weapon. I don't care if he was someones son, father, husband. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Another scumbag off the streets. And if I hear the person who stabbed him is going to be prosecuted I'll be up outside wherever to protest against it.

cushtac

Trojan911 wrote: »

And this is the Gospel?

If there's nothing in the Code that says otherwise then it's Gospel, to the best of my knowledge there's nothing in the Code prohibiting the lawful use of equipment off-duty.

ScubaDave

cushtac wrote: »

If there's nothing in the Code that says otherwise then it's Gospel, to the best of my knowledge there's nothing in the Code prohibiting the lawful use of equipment off-duty.

Thank you! My point exactly!