symbolism in the Book of Revelation

branie

Can anyone actually understand it?

Goduznt Xzst

If you have a friend who's a Jehovahs Witness, get a hold of their copy of the book "Revelation! It's grand climax at hand"

A friend in college got it off one of his JW friends and was passing it around. A quick flick through it will make you think you're reading a J.R.R Tolkien book

with such wonderful illustrations such as this one, or this or this one

kelly1

Is this any good to you?

http://www.fisheaters.com/revelationoutline.html

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

A friend in college got it off one of his JW friends and was passing it around. A quick flick through it will make you think you're reading a J.R.R Tolkien book

I have no interest in defending the Jehovah's Witnesses and their heterodox beliefs, but any resemblance to Tolkien's work may be because of Tolkien being influenced by Hebrew thought.

Tolkien was a big friend of CS Lewis (and the inspiration for Lewis' character Arthur Ransom in the biblically inspired Pelandra novels). A devout Catholic, he was the translator of the Book of Jonah in the Jerusalem Bible, and two of the lesser languages of Middle Earth, namely Adunaic (the language of Numenor) and Khuzdul (the language of the dwarves) are based on the Semitic model of triconsonantal roots. The Book of Revelation is the most Hebrew book in the New Testament and, in response to the OP, is full of symbolism - some of which is quite easy to understand and some of which is quite obscure to a reader from a different culture 1900 years later.

As for understanding it? That's easy - the good guy wins!

Goduznt Xzst

I've always wondered right. God isn't evil and Satan does all the torturing. So why does God torture humans at Armageddon? Why not *poof* send all humans to heaven and then send the rest to hell, what's with all the pomp and ceremony before hand, who's it all for?

MrPudding

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I've always wondered right. God isn't evil and Satan does all the torturing. So why does God torture humans at Armageddon? Why not *poof* send all humans to heaven and then send the rest to hell, what's with all the pomp and ceremony before hand, who's it all for?

I tihnk someone has a bit of an ego.

mrP

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I've always wondered right. God isn't evil and Satan does all the torturing. So why does God torture humans at Armageddon? Why not *poof* send all humans to heaven and then send the rest to hell, what's with all the pomp and ceremony before hand, who's it all for?

Armageddon is the scene of a climactic battle between good and evil. What torturing are you thinking of?

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

I tihnk someone has a bit of an ego.

I think someone likes to troll. Feel free to enter the discussion if you have something useful to contribute.

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

Armageddon is the scene of a climactic battle between good and evil. What torturing are you thinking of?

ok it might be easier if I knew what your understanding of armageddon was. How exactly do you believe all unfaithful humans will die at Armageddon?

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

ok it might be easier if I knew what your understanding of armageddon was. How exactly do you believe all unfaithful humans will die at Armageddon?

I don't.

The only reference to Armageddon in the Bible (Rev 16:16) refers to a great conflict between the Antichrist and Christ.

I think you might be trying to discuss what Christians believe on the basis of what you have read in a Jehovah's Witness booklet. That will be a recipe for confusion and misunderstanding.

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

I don't.

The only reference to Armageddon in the Bible (Rev 16:16) refers to a great conflict between the Antichrist and Christ.

I think you might be trying to discuss what Christians believe on the basis of what you have read in a Jehovah's Witness booklet. That will be a recipe for confusion and misunderstanding.

Ok do you believe in the rapture then? In your belief how does the story end for humans?

kelly1

There is no rapture. When Christ comes again and the General Judgment occurs, the resurrection of the dead and the living will occur when we'll all get new glorified bodies (except for the damned of course). I'm being very careful not to mention the word bl**k again!

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

There is no rapture. When Christ comes again and the General Judgment occurs, the resurrection of the dead and the living will occur when we'll all get new glorified bodies (except for the damned of course). I'm being very careful not to mention the word bl**k again!

What does this idea that Christ will come again mean? Should I take it literally?

PDN

CerebralCortex wrote: »

What does this idea that Christ will come again mean? Should I take it literally?

Very literally.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1;9-11)

sorella

In this knowledge there is total unity.

PDN wrote: »

Very literally.

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Ok do you believe in the rapture then? In your belief how does the story end for humans?

It is often stated that the word 'rapture' does not occur in the Bible - but that is because we don't read it in Latin! It is taken from the Latin word rapio - meaning to snatch up.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So, yes, I do believe that those still alive at Christ's Return will be 'caught up' to be with the Lord.

In your belief how does the story end for humans?

In my belief those who accept Christ as Saviour, are raised from the dead, given a new glorified body, and spend eternity in fulfilling activity in the presence of God.

Those who reject Him as Saviour go to Hell where they suffer eternal separation from God. This suffering is described in terms of fire - which may or may not be meant to be taken literally.

Those who died as infants, were mentally handicapped etc. and were therefore incapable of responding to the Gospel message will, I believe, enjoy the same blessings as those who accepted the Gospel.

As for those who were of age and of sound mind, but never heard the Gospel, I don't claim to know their destiny because it is not revealed in Scripture. I trust that God will judge them justly according to the light they have received - but I am also aware of what ratbags we can be and that none of us actually live up to the light that we have received. I leave this one in the hands of God.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

What does this idea that Christ will come again mean? Should I take it literally?

Just to add to what PDN said, there are several references to Christ's 2nd coming in Scripture. Have a read of Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

Christ warns us about false prophets who claim to be Christ. But when Christ does comes there will be no mistake because He will be clearly visible throughout the entire world. There will be no mistaking Him for believers and unbelievers alike. This will be the time when faith is no longer needed and mercy ends and God's justice will prevail.

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

It is often stated that the word 'rapture' does not occur in the Bible - but that is because we don't read it in Latin! It is taken from the Latin word rapio - meaning to snatch up.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So whilst all this is going on, what is happening to all the other unfaithful humans on Earth?

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So whilst all this is going on, what is happening to all the other unfaithful humans on Earth?

That all rather depends on when the rapture takes place.

Some Christians believe in a 2-stage coming of Christ, where the believers are raptured away and there is a time lag of several years until Christ finally puts the rest of human history out of its misery. During this time (known as the Great Tribulation) people get their wish of being able to do what they like without the horrible influence of Christianity. So they proceed to oppress and slaughter one another to their hearts' content, causing all kinds of ecological damage and catastrophe in the process. Then stage 2 of the Second Coming occurs. This 2-stage theory of the Second Coming is very popular today, particularly in the US, and is popularised in the Left Behind novels.

Others believe that Christians will not be spared the Great Tribulation but will live through it, and the rapture occurs in a 1-stage coming of Christ to sort the world out. That will be the end of human history. This has been the view of the majority Christians for the first 1900 years of Church History.

While there is disagreement over details, the vast majority of the Christians agree on the major points:
1. Man does not evolve into some kind of utopian Golden Age. We keep on being selfish, greedy and killing one another.
2. There will be a decisive end to human history.
3. Jesus will return in a bodily literal way.
4. The dead will be resurrected and receive new bodies.
5. Those who belong to Christ will dwell for Eternity in God's presence.
6. The wicked go to hell.

While Christians have a lot of fun debating the other details, and sometimes get far too upset at those who don't see it quite the way we see it, these are the points of common agreement that really matter.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Just to add to what PDN said, there are several references to Christ's 2nd coming in Scripture. Have a read of Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.



Christ warns us about false prophets who claim to be Christ. But when Christ does comes there will be no mistake because He will be clearly visible throughout the entire world. There will be no mistaking Him for believers and unbelievers alike. This will be the time when faith is no longer needed and mercy ends and God's justice will prevail.

So he actually has yet to come? You know I don't read the bible Kelly1

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

So he actually has yet to come? You know I don't read the bible Kelly1

Obviously the first coming was 2000 years ago when Christ came as a servant, to save and not to condemn. He came in humility and died a horrible death on a cross at the hands of wicked men.

When He comes again (we don't know exactly when), He will come in power and glory and every single person will know for sure that the end has come. All evil that is hidden in the hearts of me will be revealed for all to see. He will come to judge because the time to choose good or evil will have passed. The just and the wicked (sheep and goats) will be separated and everyone will get what they deserve according to God's justice.

I suggested you read the bible to see for yourself and not to take my word for it.

Regards,
Noel.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

...I suggested you read the bible to see for yourself and not to take my word for it.

Regards,
Noel.

On this subject your word is as good as the bibles.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

On this subject your word is as good as the bibles.

I wouldn't say that! I'm fallible like the rest of us. I'm still learning about the various nuances of doctrine.

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

Christ finally puts the rest of human history out of its misery.

How will Christ accomplish this?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

5. Those who belong to Christ will dwell for Eternity in God's presence.
6. The wicked go to hell.

Surely you mean that those who don't "belong to Christ" -- by which I assume you mean that those of us who don't accept that the NT's theological deal exists -- will go to hell?

I don't believe that this disbelief equates to "wickedness" in any honorable ethical system that I can think of.

Or have I misunderstood you?

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

Surely you mean that those who don't "belong to Christ" -- by which I assume you mean that those of us who don't accept that the NT's theological deal exists -- will go to hell?

I don't believe that this disbelief equates to "wickedness" in any honorable ethical system that I can think of.

Or have I misunderstood you?

Robin, the bible says that we are saved by grace so if we possess this (sanctifying) grace when we die (or at the 2nd coming of Christ), then we are saved. On the other hand, the lack of the grace automatically damns us. In Catholic terms, this mean dying in a state of mortal sin.

When we have God's grace within us, the Holy Trinity dwells within us and we are in that state true children of God. We are elevated in dignity through God's grace. We of our own nature are really nothing more than intelligent animals. But with grace, we are "divinized". As the bible says "Christ took upon Himself our humanity so we could share in His divinity".

By being is a state of grace, we remain "grafted on the True Vine" which is Christ. Christ in this same passage said that without Him we can do nothing (good). So I think we belong to Christ in the sense that we are part of the Mystical Body or grafted on the Vine in metaphorical terms.

Not sure if that makes things any clearer?

CerebralCortex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How will Christ accomplish this?

I'd like to know why this question warranted a red card? (I hope I don't get one now either).

PDN

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'd like to know why this question warranted a red card? (I hope I don't get one now either).

The red card was for his trollish signature which, at the time of the infraction, was configured in his post as a quote attributed to God.

Surely you know me well enough by now to know that I wouldn't infract someone for asking an honest question?

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Surely you mean that those who don't "belong to Christ" -- by which I assume you mean that those of us who don't accept that the NT's theological deal exists -- will go to hell?

I don't believe that this disbelief equates to "wickedness" in any honorable ethical system that I can think of.

Or have I misunderstood you?

No, I do not mean those who don't 'belong to Christ'. For example, a child who died in infancy or a severely mentally handicapped adult may never have heard of Christ, but I do not believe that they go to hell.

Perhaps I should clarify my wording. I would have been better off saying that "Those among the wicked who reject Christ" will go to hell. I believe that, morally, all of us commit sin and therefore are wicked when compared to a standard of absolute holiness.

I am just as wicked as you, Robin, probably much more so. However, by accepting a totally undeserved offer of forgiveness I gain entry to heaven. We have gone over this before and, I believe, I have explained to you previously that rejecting Christ does not constitute the wickedness for which people go to hell. People go to hell for being selfish, for lying, for exploiting one another etc. We get offered a free pardon through Jesus Christ and so, amazingly, some of us thereby scrape into heaven. Those who choose to reject the pardon pay the penalty for their sins.

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How will Christ accomplish this?

According to the book of Revelation many of those who have rejected Christ will try to wage war against Christ and will be killed in the process. We are not told in detail how this will happen, rather in highly symbolic language it says they are "killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse".

J C

wrote:

PDN
Some Christians believe in a 2-stage coming of Christ, where the believers are raptured away and there is a time lag of several years until Christ finally puts the rest of human history out of its misery. During this time (known as the Great Tribulation) people get their wish of being able to do what they like without the horrible influence of Christianity. So they proceed to oppress and slaughter one another to their hearts' content, causing all kinds of ecological damage and catastrophe in the process. Then stage 2 of the Second Coming occurs. This 2-stage theory of the Second Coming is very popular today, particularly in the US, and is popularised in the Left Behind novels.

Others believe that Christians will not be spared the Great Tribulation but will live through it, and the rapture occurs in a 1-stage coming of Christ to sort the world out. That will be the end of human history. This has been the view of the majority Christians for the first 1900 years of Church History.

....the reason that Christians didn't know about the Rapture for most of Church History is that they didn't NEED to know about it......because it wasn't imminent. It is ONLY as events begin to unfold near to the Rapture, that the Book of Daniel and Revelation will start to be understood.

God only interfered directly to punish the Entire World twice already....at the Fall and in Noah's Flood.....and the next time it will be in the Tribulation.

God always saves anybody who WISHES to be Saved.

God Saved nobody from His wrath, the first time....He Saved Noah and his family the second time and he will Save all True Christians the third time.

BOTH Revelation and parts of The Book of Daniel are important 'End Times' Scriptures:-

Da 12:1 ¶ "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
5 ¶ Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
(NKJV)

J C

PDN wrote: »

No, I do not mean those who don't 'belong to Christ'. For example, a child who died in infancy or a severely mentally handicapped adult may never have heard of Christ, but I do not believe that they go to hell.

Perhaps I should clarify my wording. I would have been better off saying that "Those among the wicked who reject Christ" will go to hell. I believe that, morally, all of us commit sin and therefore are wicked when compared to a standard of absolute holiness.

I am just as wicked as you, Robin, probably much more so. However, by accepting a totally undeserved offer of forgiveness I gain entry to heaven. We have gone over this before and, I believe, I have explained to you previously that rejecting Christ does not constitute the wickedness for which people go to hell. People go to hell for being selfish, for lying, for exploiting one another etc. We get offered a free pardon through Jesus Christ and so, amazingly, some of us thereby scrape into heaven. Those who choose to reject the pardon pay the penalty for their sins.

....people go to Hell for ONE reason and ONE reason only......they DON'T repent and believe on Jesus Christ to Save them.

.....as you have said, we are ALL sinners undeserving of God's mercy.......but ALL of the Unsaved can (potentially) avail of His grace ......all they have to do is to repent and believe on Jesus Christ!!!!:)

There are three basic categories of people.....the Unsaved, the Saved and the Damned (who have sinned against the Holy Spirit by attributing the power of Jesus Christ to Satan).

The Unsaved are divided into two further categories......those who have never heard of Jesus Christ due to mental incapacity or geography (who will be judged by Jesus Christ on the desire of their hearts in relation to God).....and those who know that Jesus Christ can save them and refuse to be Saved.