Atheist brother won't stop bullying me

Rocker991

Hi guys,
I'm 17 and my brother is 18. I am so pissed off with him. He doesn't stop mocking me because I'm anglican. Just because I believe in God, it seems to him that I am stupid and he just doesn't stop going on about it.
This all kicked off about 6 months ago when he got one of the god delusion books and goes about calling me anti-science and that i'm a creationist, which isn't true (I actually want to be a scientist!).
So I guess i'm asking what should I do! I can't talk to my dad about it (he acts the same as my bro) and my mum just tells me to ignore it, so I don't know where to turn.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate being ridiculed for my beliefs. Thanks to anyone who has some ideas.

Gillo

Ignoring him may well help, it's possible he's slagging you off to get a rise out of you.

Have you tried talking to him about it?

Sangre

Point out the irony of him preaching his views and ridiculing you.

mikemac

Anglican? You're going start to hell so :pac:

Just don't invite to your wedding (afters only), christening of your children. Oh and if a family member dies, tell him he better not step foot inside the church, he won't be welcome.

You can respect a guy for being an atheist and having strong views. But you can't respect an atheist who still insists on a church wedding as it may be the social norm for example as that's just hypocrisy.

monument

If you're talking about the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, it's worth noting that Dawkins preaches his views like cults do and is a bit of a bull **** artist when it comes to linking his religious views with those of his hero, Charles Darwin.

In 'the Genius of Charles Darwin' which aired on Channel Four recently Dawkins made a number of attacks at different religions. He was making all sorts of links with his views and Darwin's views, but at no point does he say Darwin was agnostic, and not atheist. Read here for more.

Orizio

Doesn't seem to be too big a problem, just talk to him seriously and tell him him that he is offending and hurting you. If that doesn't work, just give back as good as you get, point out the pointless and fallacious nature of Atheism and then point out that Dawkins is a bit of a twat and his 'logic' deeply flawed.

Or else you could just see to light and become an agnostic...:D

pookie82

I'm not sure that attacking Dawkins is the way to go here. If it's Dawkins v. any of the religious idiots he interviewed in that programme - especially the American preacher who asked him for "hard evidence" of evolution, or the science teacher who taught in a British grammar school that the earth was about 7000 years old - he tends to come out on top without difficulty.

I was raised in a religious envoironment and I believe in some form of a higher being (most likely a throw back to my youth). Yet Dawkins speaks far more rational sense to me than any religious advocate. So it's rather messy to try and get into that kind of debate.

Why don't you just sit your brother down and ask why it bothers him so much? Sounds like he discovered the Dawkins theories a few months ago and it lording it over every religious person he knows, which is very childish. My intitial instinct is that this is plain old sibling teasing with a twist.

If you really do want to combat his newfound views, why not have a read of the God Delusion yourself, pick holes in it, and give him a run for his money?

Alternatively I would imagine that it'd be a lot less hassle to ignore him with a grin until he gets bored of annoying you. That's generally what big brothers do. He'll get tired eventually I'm sure.

pookie82

monument wrote: »

He was making all sorts of links with his views and Darwin's views, but at no point does he say Darwin was agnostic, and not atheist. Read here for more.

I watched those documentaries and I thought that Dawkins made it very clear at various points that Darwin came from a religious background and that his work on the concept of evolution was only a first step towards the development towards full blown atheism. I never heard him actually call Darwin an atheist. He made it quite clear, when i was watching it, that Darwin had great difficulty with what his research was proposing and carried this difficulty up until his death. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the strong impression I got.

Anyway OP, I just think that getting into the Dawkins argument may not be the simplest way to deal with it. Your brother will find someone else to annoy if you ignore him for long enough.

Rosita

I have to say I have never quite got the scientist v creationist thing at all. It strikes me as two bald men squabbling over a comb.

The idea that the world is 7,000 years old is an old-hat man-made idea surely, but the disproving of that hardly disproves the existence of God.

For people who believe in God I have heard nothing from any scientist which would change their minds as it cannot be disproved not more than it can be proved. Religious faith is by definition irrational i.e. it is not based on reason and demonstrable truth, therefore it cannot be undermined or disproved rationally.

As for this particular case, there are no people more scary and aggressive in ramming their beliefs down people's throats than the those who think they are liberal, tolerant and rational, and are convinced that their theories are provable fact (they somethimes don't seem to get why they are called theories) while everyone else's theories are balderdash.

Hopefully this chap will grow put of it, but he is best ignored if possible in the meantime to avoid fuelling it.

SpitfireIV

Rocker991 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I'm 17 and my brother is 18. I am so pissed off with him. He doesn't stop mocking me because I'm anglican. Just because I believe in God, it seems to him that I am stupid and he just doesn't stop going on about it.
This all kicked off about 6 months ago when he got one of the god delusion books and goes about calling me anti-science and that i'm a creationist, which isn't true (I actually want to be a scientist!).
So I guess i'm asking what should I do! I can't talk to my dad about it (he acts the same as my bro) and my mum just tells me to ignore it, so I don't know where to turn.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate being ridiculed for my beliefs. Thanks to anyone who has some ideas.

Sorry to have to say it OP, but your brother sounds like a right dick, one book and now suddenly he has become an expert on the subject?! I know the type, so damned annoying. I'm not into the whole religion thing myself but I dont flaunt my believes in other peoples faces, what others want to believe is up to them, there own choice, you have to make this clear to your brother. If that doesnt work just get that book and clobber him over the head with it!! :pac:

A Primal Nut

Haha my brother slagged me over stuff all the time; I soon learned to give as good as i get - this was a five-year difference, with a one-year difference shouldn't be a problem.

I suppose religious is a sensitive issue, but think of it as a difference of opinions in the same way as brothers support different football teams; won't seem like such a big deal after that.

Fad

Rocker991 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I'm 17 and my brother is 18. I am so pissed off with him. He doesn't stop mocking me because I'm anglican. Just because I believe in God, it seems to him that I am stupid and he just doesn't stop going on about it.
This all kicked off about 6 months ago when he got one of the god delusion books and goes about calling me anti-science and that i'm a creationist, which isn't true (I actually want to be a scientist!).
So I guess i'm asking what should I do! I can't talk to my dad about it (he acts the same as my bro) and my mum just tells me to ignore it, so I don't know where to turn.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate being ridiculed for my beliefs. Thanks to anyone who has some ideas.

Just tell him he's no better than a scientoligist (I think all here will agree that its nothing but a science fiction novel formed into a religion but thats besides the point) and that he's been brainwashed by Dawkins.

THEN ask him to provide you with one opinion/idea of his own, that he did not read/hear someone else say. A lot of atheists tend to repeat what other louder individuals say, and that probably should stop him in his tracks.

Or just accuse him, of buying into the trendy atheist ideal (which i hope doesnt really exist but id say that'd get to him.)

Overheal

micmclo wrote: »

You can respect a guy for being an atheist and having strong views. But you can't respect an atheist who still insists on a church wedding as it may be the social norm for example as that's just hypocrisy.

.....Bull? I guess I shouldn't have been a pallbearer my grandmother's funeral then. Or attended my stepmother's wake. And I guess Jewish people and Catholics should never marry eachother, and - you get my point I think.

Back on topic though, I love Sangre's idea. Other than that OP, a good idea would be to refer him to the
Atheism and Agnosticism Forum here on boards.ie - if nothing else it will get him to stop raining on you specifically. At best he will be able to talk to other atheists and agnostics and learn where he might be going wrong and.or making a tit of himself.

Sangre

micmclo wrote: »

You can respect a guy for being an atheist and having strong views. But you can't respect an atheist who still insists on a church wedding as it may be the social norm for example as that's just hypocrisy.

Never talked to an atheist who 'insisted' on a church wedding. Usually just went along with it to suit the other half or relatives. Makes no difference to them, not like God will be annoyed. Not sure who it clashes with their strong views. Being an atheist doesn't mean you're an anti-theist. Obviously they can be both but the two views are unconnected.

dresden8

He's just being an ass, explaining yourself or discussing anything with him won't do any good, he's enjoying bullying and ridiculing you.

Keep it simple.

Just tell him to f*ck off.

deleriumtremens

It seems to me that your brother feels all angsty because of the fact that, after having read that book 6 months ago, the comfort of religious belief has been snatched from him.
so he vents these feelings out on you by trying to make you believe what he believes so hes not the only one suffering.

jellybean08

Im a scientist and i dont go around telling people the idea of God is whack! Everyone is entitled to believe in what they want to believe in...be it the force, creation or otherwise.

It seems to me aswell that these days it's 'cool' to question these things. I would just not discuss it with him because if he is forcing his opinion on you is not REALLY going to listen to what you have to say.Some people are just ignorant, no offence to your brother. I tend no to discuss politics or religion as a rule

Orizio

I see no problem whatsoever - indeed its a good thing - to question important areas. And it is important to discuss things like politics because they are important to our everyday lives. What matters is showing respect to those who disagree with you so the debate can be civil and constructive.

jellybean08

Orizio wrote: »

I see no problem whatsoever - indeed its a good thing - to question important areas. And it is important to discuss things like politics because they are important to our everyday lives. What matters is showing respect to those who disagree with you so the debate can be civil and constructive.

yes it is important to discuss them...I personally dont as the people I have discussed these with are over opinionated...as for politics I think maybe i dont know as much as others about them so i choose not to discuss it .I'll listen o others opinions though:)

monument

First I'll say why is all of this relevant: The OP's brother appears to have changed his views after reading Dawkins, while Dawkins misleadingly uses Darwin and the name of science to beat religion, among other errors...

pookie82 wrote: »

I'm not sure that attacking Dawkins is the way to go here. If it's Dawkins v. any of the religious idiots he interviewed in that programme - especially the American preacher who asked him for "hard evidence" of evolution, or the science teacher who taught in a British grammar school that the earth was about 7000 years old - he tends to come out on top without difficulty.

For most of the three parts we were given nuts really. Dawkins appeared to have a harder time dealing with the more reasoned Church of England. The only thing he could do with them was dismiss them as simply adapting to science (ie the same thing all reasonably people and groups do and have done over the ages -- in different ways it is like with both him and Dawin when they adapted their views to what they had learnt).

pookie82 wrote: »

I never heard him actually call Darwin an atheist.

The programme purported to be about Darwin.

In 'the Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex', Darwin wrote: "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic." I've watched the three parts of the programme twice and couldn't find one mention of the word 'agnostic'. But Dawkins' viewpoint of atheist was mentioned time and time again. Furthermore Dawkins heavily linked his viewpoint of with the views of Darwin. There is however a big gap between atheist and agnostic.

I agree with a lot of what Dawkins says but he goes too far to the point of where isn't a defender of science but an attacker of religion. But, as has been mentioned above, the ironic thing is Dawkins is just as much of a fundamentalist as the religious fundamentalists he attacks. And he uses arguments of same nature his opponents do. Remember being strongly atheist is not the same as having no view point on matters. And his stance is no more reasonably than most other fundamentalists, and such a stance could easily be seen as less reasonably than moderate religions or religious views.

The review of the God Delusion in the New York Review Of Books (via metacritic.com) had a great line about the Dawkins:

"None of Dawkins's loud pronouncements on God follows from any experiment or piece of data. It's just Dawkins talking".

The review (4,500 words plus) can be read here. And even better is a line from the review writer's defence of his review to a letter writer, here:

"I wasn't disappointed in The God Delusion because I was shocked by Dawkins's atheism. I was disappointed because it wasn't very good".

For me, Dawkins' arguments are far too simplistic, often misleading, a good bit of the time contradictory, and, at the core, always fundamentalists.

Oh, for the record, I'm agnostic, just like Darwin was :pac:

marco_polo

I would probably classify myself as an atheist, I consider Dawkins to be a great science writer and any of his books on those topics are worth a read. The GD was just ok IMHO. Thankfully for his next book he is going back to what he does best. While I admire his stance against religious extremists and creationists I do find his militant brand of atheism to be a little distasteful when targeted at moderates. Live and let live I say.

In terms of advice, point your brother towards a short pier and tell him to take a long walk next time he brings it up.

Wibbs

OK everyone chill re the dawkins debate. Answer the OP's question or take it to one of the religious fora.

andy1249

Just tell him to f*ck off.

+1

It may be a bit of a crude response , but the whole thing is a circular argument anyway , its an endless cycle of oneupmanship and is pointless and frustrating argument to get into , just agree to differ .... however having 2 brothers myself , its a fair point that hes probably intent on getting a rise out of you , so the above quoted advice is the best attitude to take , maybe dont use those words exactly ... just refuse to discuss it.

Belief systems should be personal , and not foisted upon others.

tony1kenobi

You're 17 and he is 18. If it isn't religion it'll be something else he'll bully you on.

Watch Rocky, then watch Rocky 2. Then lie in wait.

God loves Rocky, so you have Him on your side.

Nevyn

tony1kenobi banned for 1 weeks for advocating voilence and unhelpful posting.

0utpost31

Sangre wrote: »

Point out the irony of him preaching his views and ridiculing you.

But the thing is one is fact and the other is fiction....

Fad

0utpost31 wrote: »

But the thing is one is fact and the other is fiction....

Isnt there a thing about helpful posting on this board

Also theres a thing called faith some people have it.*





*I dont, but preachy atheists get them as a whole a bad name, so this fact or fiction crap isnt helping the cause so to speak.

Sangre

0utpost31 wrote: »

But the thing is one is fact and the other is fiction....

I agree but it isn't cause to attack someone unprovoked for their beliefs. You can ridicule a belief all you want in appropiate circumstances e.g a mutual debate. However to attack a person's dignity and intelligence on the basis of what you think you believe is just being ignorant.

Dr_Teeth

OP your brother is just being a twat. It has nothing to do with religion.. becoming an atheist doesn't make you a better person any more than becoming a born again christian. If he wasn't being a twat to you about religion, he'd probably be a twat to you about which football team you support, or your hair style or something.. so just tell him to shut up.

Richard Dawkins is awesome.

RossFixxxed

As an atheist i must say some of the most fundamentalist c**** are atheists themselves, that suddenly have changed and spout a load of science they half understand. Every area has its lunatics I guess.

Just don't rise to him and dont' get into petty squabbles with him. Religion is one of those areas that people will just KEEP arguing back and forth. Let him go.

R

Dragan

He's your brother. It's his job to give you grief.

And vice versa. I do need to ask if you are taking this to heart more because you are just sensitive about your religious views and feel they should be respected?

Well the wake up call is that not everyone will respect it, some people will poke fun at it. You will need to learn to deal with it.

0utpost31

Sangre wrote: »

I agree but it isn't cause to attack someone unprovoked for their beliefs.

Jesus tap dancing christ you'd swear it was the crusades, they're BROTHERS. Brothers FIGHT. The OP shouldn't give a sh*t if he's confident enough in his beliefs.

I'm confident in my beliefs.... i believe that if I drop an apple it will fall to the ground. If my brother shouted at me "HEY apples fall UP you fool!!!" I'd laugh in his face, then punch him in the face.

OP the only way to stop this is to believe in your religion. If you know it's true, who gives a sh*t what anyone says? Obvioulsy you can't believe in some stuff like noah's ark....

Try and have a discussion with him over a few tins.

Sangre

bull**** tbh. Im fully confident in what I believe true but if I had an evangelical fundamentalist preaching at me every day about how I was wrong and how I would burn in hell I would get pretty annoyed, no matter how sure I was. This isn't a debate, its just another reason for a brother to insult the OP, you'd hope at 18 he'd be a bit more mature.

dresden8

Mods, I don't mean to get all After Hours on this one, feel free to delete if I've crossed a line, but there is always the option of going on the offensive.

Your brother is a bully. If he sees he is getting to you, he is winning. If you discuss it with him, it gives him an opportunity to pontificate, and so he wins again. Life is not an American tv show where everything is resolved by a heart to heart and a hug within 55 minutes. (including ads). Generally it's more Malcolm in the middle.

Most family disputes like this, especially between teenagers, and especially teenage boys, usually end in fisticuffs.

The only other option I see is to attack his sense of superiority and turn the tables on him.

A simple "Are you queer for Dawkins or something? You're always going on about him", especially in front of as large a group of people as possible, should deflate his ego.

I've got a killer line if the mods haven't killed this post and banned me. I'll check back later.

Wagon

Tell him exactly what you think of him? As in the next time he starts griping on at you for what you believe in then tell him to **** off, that he got most of his ideals out of a book written by a self important prick for self important pricks and that he's only buying into this so he can hold up "intellegent" conversation in the company of other **** like him. Take a look at his friends, I bet some of them go on the exact same.

The best defence mate is to read the book yourself. Then spot any holes (there's always a few) and then start arguing constructively. That'll learn him.

dresden8

He attacks your religion, you attack his sexuality.

Lines like "What's your problem, they even allow gay bishops in the church now, you could go far".

Don't fight on his battleground, fight on yours. If the conversation goes that way your dad won't be inclined to think it's so funny and your mother might not be inclined to ignore the issue.

Apologies of course to any gay people out there, but this is war.

lostexpectation

since when did you become an anglican?

Ravelleman

Just pray that it stops...

But seriously though, sincerity is usually the solution to problems like this.

marie_85

Stop reacting to him and he'll find something else to start slagging you off over. The issue here isn't religion - I sincerely doubt either of you will change each others minds. The issue is that the topic is a little too close to home for you. If he sees that you're not bothered by what he's saying, he'll find something else to go on about.

Failing that, you could pray for him??

Zulu

0utpost31 wrote: »

But the thing is one is fact and the other is fiction....

I wouldn't go as far as to call the understanding of science we have today as "fiction"...

limklad

Rocker991 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I'm 17 and my brother is 18. I am so pissed off with him. He doesn't stop mocking me because I'm anglican. Just because I believe in God, it seems to him that I am stupid and he just doesn't stop going on about it.
This all kicked off about 6 months ago when he got one of the god delusion books and goes about calling me anti-science and that i'm a creationist, which isn't true (I actually want to be a scientist!).
So I guess i'm asking what should I do! I can't talk to my dad about it (he acts the same as my bro) and my mum just tells me to ignore it, so I don't know where to turn.

Sorry for the rant, I just hate being ridiculed for my beliefs. Thanks to anyone who has some ideas.

You brother is probably going through an insecurity phase. If he was happy with his decision then he would not feel the need to bully you.
Bullies like to make other feel less than they do. It a perverse sense to boost their self esteem.

If you are happy with your decision and you are contented, then take no notice what he says, if it does persist then say with confidence that "I understand that you have your views and you have your beliefs". Do not get upset, get emotional and definitely. Do not get into a religious argument with him. Not even science can proof, if God do or do not exist. Neither can you brother!
It is just Faith. He has lost his.

AtomicHorror

dresden8 wrote: »

He attacks your religion, you attack his sexuality.

Lines like "What's your problem, they even allow gay bishops in the church now, you could go far".

Don't fight on his battleground, fight on yours. If the conversation goes that way your dad won't be inclined to think it's so funny and your mother might not be inclined to ignore the issue.

Apologies of course to any gay people out there, but this is war.

Seriously? Your actual advice is to say "you're gay"?

OP, Dawkins is quite the anti-religious man but he's not the sort to pick a fight with someone over their personal beliefs. He's more about going after institutions and pushing secularity. Never would you see Dawkins giving anyone the sort of crap that you seem to be getting from your brother. At a guess I'd say your brother is having a tough time accepting his atheism, or perhaps he's just a bit of a jerk. It probably runs deeper than atheism or religion. Whatever the issue, he absolutely shouldn't be taking that out on you. I grew up as a religious kid with an atheist brother and there was plenty of debate, but no bullying or intimidation. He never tried to convert me, he just responded to my questioning of him. In the end he convinced me, or rather allowed me to convince myself.

Perhaps you can turn this into a civilised two-sided debate, but really there may be no simple solution to this problem. I would perhaps ask your brother what he hopes to achieve with his behaviour. If he thinks he's acting in the name of Dawkins, I can guarantee the man would not approve at all. If he's trying to convert you, he's making a dogs dinner of it.

Zulu

AtomicHorror wrote: »

...he's not the sort to pick a fight with someone over their personal beliefs.

Attacking their religion is exactly that?!? Anyway, back ot:

or perhaps he's just a bit of a jerk...

He clearly is, persecuting a person because of his personal religion/belief is what a jerk would do in my books.
OP, your brother is an immature jerk. As with all other immature jerks in this world, you have to ask yourself: is the opinion of an immature jerk something that I value, or respect?
The answer, as you grow older, becomes a resounding "NO" and so our life becomes easier.

With age, he'll cop on and respect you and your opinions. Hopefully.

JC 2K3

Rocker991 wrote: »

So I guess i'm asking what should I do! I can't talk to my dad about it (he acts the same as my bro) and my mum just tells me to ignore it, so I don't know where to turn.

God?

Anyway, this is fundamentally about sibling rivalry, not one's right to believe what they like. You seem oversensitive about the topic of religion, and your brother has picked up on this. As long as it continues to annoy you, he will continue to mock you, so the sooner you start ignoring him, the sooner he'll stop (and probably move on to your sexuality or something).

dan_d

I've a sister, and if I say black, she says white.There have been ENDLESS circular useless arguments over things that we believe and differ on.NO matter the subject, she'll take the opposite view. Whether it's what she truly believes or not, it's how she goes!
You're not going to win this argument, bottom line.And you'll waste useless hours of your life arguing it.Unfortunately the only way is to ignore it (and NOT to say "you're gay"!That's gay!!).My favourite line, to be repeated ad-lib, to every sentence on the subject is " I'm not disussing this "("anymore/again" or just the way it is). That's it.Response to every slagging..."I'm not discussing this". "I've already said [EMAIL="I@not"]I'm not[/EMAIL] talking about this", "I'm not discussing it".Just keep saying it to every line he says on the subject, speaking over (or under) him if necessary.Helps if you immediately change the subject,leave the room, or instantly start talking to someone else. You get the last word, and you completely defuse the situation by reacting CALMLY (screaming doesn't help!), and eventually he'll give up because ...well.. you're not discussing it.

SuperGrover

OP, have you considered praying for him?

Fanny Cradock

Forearmed is forewarned and all that. Explore your faith - maybe you will learn things and be able to go on the offence with some logical arguments. Sure pop on over to the Christianity forum.