Ireland hooker

Trojan

Thinks are looking up at hooker I think. Who do you guys think we'll have for the Autumn tests, and further down the line, 6 Nations? I think on current form, for the Autumn tests we have to start Jackman, see how he gets on, and let them battle it out on form for the 6N.

In order of selection:

Bernard Jackman
Rory Best
Frank Sheahan
Jerry Flannery
Brian Blaney
John Fogarty
Damien Varley

Crash

I'd actually put Fogarty above Blaney at the moment, hes had more game experience recently. Other than that, i'd agree with the list - I think Sheehans beard is improving his throwing tbh.

JWAD

Rory Best would be my first choice. Don't see much currently between Jackman and Flannery.

Amazotheamazing

Why include Varley and not Cronin? And Denis Fogarty started few A games in the Churchill Cup.

How many chances should Jackman have before people accept that he not up to it? He had a good few chances last season and tanked.

Trojan

Amazo, you're right, I should have included Cronin. How's he been getting on this season?

Varley's debut try at a struggling Wasps brought him to my attention, and I haven't been paying attention to Connacht much (ironically).

But I completely disagree about Jackman, he's consistently Man of the Match in the Magners, time after time, and playing a blinder. Performance > age. You just can't ignore that.

Amazotheamazing

Trojan wrote: »

Amazo, you're right, I should have included Cronin. How's he been getting on this season?

Varley's debut try at a struggling Wasps brought him to my attention, and I haven't been paying attention to Connacht much (ironically).

But I completely disagree about Jackman, he's consistently Man of the Match in the Magners, time after time, and playing a blinder. Performance > age. You just can't ignore that.

Some players don't have the ability to step up, for example, Staunton was a stand out outhalf in the AIL, but never stepped up to HEC standard, O'Shea was a top fullback in England, but never did it for Ireland. Imo, Jackman is much the same, great at ML, ok at HEC and really quite poor at Int standard. If he was younger I'd say we should persevere with him, a bit like Best, but he's pushing on. In some respects I worry about Sexton (and Hurley at Munster) but hopefully he'll prove me wrong.

Cronin has done ok for Connacht so far, hard to tell really. Varley is a talented guy, but Wasps have plenty of depth there so it's hard to see if he'll get much gametime.

[Jackass]

I disagree.

People love to beat Jackman with the 6 Nations stick from last season, when all he did wrong was (and fair enough it was very stupid - but also very uncharecteristic) commit one indiscretion against Wales. As for the rest, he was no worse than anybody else in the Irish pack that as a whole were very poor.

Paul O'Connell couldn't have held a ball if you handed it to him in that 6 Nations, and carried it through to the summer tour, so I don't see how Jackman should take the blame for the lineouts. At Leinster they were functioning perfectly against all opposition, hence him being in there in the first place. Best and particularly Flannery (Australia anyone?) have stepped up since and failed in a more spectacular fashion imo.

Best has had some level of consistency in Green at least, but I think Jackman adds way more around the park. I don't think Flannery has done anything around the park in 2 years and the set piece at Munster and for Ireland has been terrible with him as Hooker recently. (not a provincial slur, but I think most Munster fans would admit to have said at least up until the Leinster game that the line out was a major concern).

I don't think Jackman should be denied another "chance", he's the form Irish hooker and would be there on merrit.

I think in order of form it would have to be:
1/ Jackman
2/ Best
3/ Flannery
4/ Sheehan
5/ Fogarty

and I don't think there are any realistic options after that. Fogarty has really impressed me for Leinster so far. It would be interesting to see him get some Ireland game time, but very unlikely considering the amount of options there are infront of him and how unlikely he is to get any major game time for Leinster. He's impressed me so much I'd have him higher in the list, but his lack of track record prevents me doing that as I've only seen him a handful of times.

Amazotheamazing

There was one match where even Tony positive Ward said Jackman wasn't up to it. He just can't step up.

Btw, re the Munster lineout, firstly Munster generally use different calls in the ML and HEC, with HEC ones having precedence, and secondly, Fisher has been spending so much time working on other aspects of the forward's play, handling, offloading etc, that they've only had limited time to work on the lineout. It's nothing to do with Flannery. can we just accept that now rather than develop a 20 page thread about it?

Btw, J. Fogarty benched for Munster in the HEC in 2002, and has plenty of experience with Connacht, he has plenty of experience. If Jackman got injured, Leinster wouldn't regret having him in the squad.

remus808

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Btw, re the Munster lineout, firstly Munster generally use different calls in the ML and HEC, with HEC ones having precedence, and secondly, Fisher has been spending so much time working on other aspects of the forward's play, handling, offloading etc, that they've only had limited time to work on the lineout. It's nothing to do with Flannery.

A poorly performing lineout is a poorly performing lineout.

Do you intimately know this Fisher fellow or does he just email you his training schedules? Cause IMO any forwards coach with half a brain will devote time to the set-piece as soon as he sees it becoming a problem, none of this "our lineout is actually fine, we're just using a fake one while concentrating on skills for the HEC" stuff...

Amazotheamazing

karmabass wrote: »

A poorly performing lineout is a poorly performing lineout.

Do you intimately know this Fisher fellow or does he just email you his training schedules? Cause IMO any forwards coach with half a brain will devote time to the set-piece as soon as he sees it becoming a problem, none of this "our lineout is actually fine, we're just using a fake one while concentrating on skills for the HEC" stuff...

Em, he said it in an interview, and considering the huge progress we've seen in ball handling from our forwards I pretty sure he wasn't lying.

It's not too much of a worry imo. Our scrum is better than it has been in ages and last weekend our lineout showed a big improvement.

Heroditas

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

There was one match where even Tony positive Ward said Jackman wasn't up to it. He just can't step up.

Well if Tony Ward said it, then that certainly must be the case. :rolleyes:

Danger_Dave

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Btw, re the Munster lineout, firstly Munster generally use different calls in the ML and HEC, with HEC ones having precedence, and secondly, Fisher has been spending so much time working on other aspects of the forward's play, handling, offloading etc, that they've only had limited time to work on the lineout. It's nothing to do with Flannery. can we just accept that now rather than develop a 20 page thread about it?

Lineout Ball is essential . When a set piece starts to lose effectiveness a coach is going to work harder on it with his players. I think Munster's Lineout has become labored and predictable , hence why teams are starting to attack it more often and getting reward from it.

Rory Best seems the best option for a new coach or a "new team" for the time being . He's the most consistent hooker for Ireland in the past few years and he helps stabilize the scrum.

Flannery/Jackman - both Showing flaws at International standard . Was it the EOS factor - Stale idea's /Calls , A number of players being off form including themselves ? .Who knows.

After all that , Whoever has the best HEC will start for Ireland in November.

Amazotheamazing

Heroditas wrote: »

Well if Tony Ward said it, then that certainly must be the case. :rolleyes:

Just pointing out the guy who never criticises Irish players is even saying he's not up to it, I don't think it's a big point. imo his performances for Ireland speak for themselves, and they all say the same thing, he can't cut it.

John_C

I think judging a player after 4(?) international games, two of which were ten years ago, might be a bit premature.

JWAD

Danger_Dave wrote: »

Rory Best seems the best option for a new coach or a "new team" for the time being . He's the most consistent hooker for Ireland in the past few years and he helps stabilize the scrum

Also a natural leader

Amazotheamazing

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JWAD wrote: »

Also a natural leader

Who's unparalleled leadership managed to bring Ulster to their worst period of the pro era and ended up with half the senior players leaving. Yep, he's the guy to lead Ireland to glory alright....

JWAD

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Who's unparalleled leadership managed to bring Ulster to their worst period of the pro era and ended up with half the senior players leaving. Yep, he's the guy to lead Ireland to glory alright....

I'm sure you know plenty of intl players who've played with him, yes? :rolleyes:
Cheers for the sarky smart-arsed reply. Made my day.

louthandproud

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

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Who's unparalleled leadership managed to bring Ulster to their worst period of the pro era and ended up with half the senior players leaving. Yep, he's the guy to lead Ireland to glory alright....

Hardly down to Best for that, Ulster have had serious problems on and off the field.

And great to see them bounce back last night BTW.

In my opinion Best is the man for Ireland, and I am pretty sure he will be too.

Flannery has never regained old form since long lay off, but I'd still have him as 2nd choice, Jackman the backup for him. The others aren't in the frame at all.

PS I haven't forgotten about Horan, although a good HEC player, International is a step too far for him IMHO, although I do admire him.

Amazotheamazing

JWAD wrote: »

I'm sure you know plenty of intl players who've played with him, yes? :rolleyes:
Cheers for the sarky smart-arsed reply. Made my day.

I'm just pointing out under his leadership Ulster have gone from a team that competed to win the ML, to one who finished in the bottom half of the table, that also lost it's best players (R. Best and T. Bowe). Yes there have been plenty of other factors, but he's hardly doing a good job there. Since when has pointing out the facts been considered "smart-arsed"?

Amazotheamazing

louthandproud wrote: »

Hardly down to Best for that, Ulster have had serious problems on and off the field.

And great to see them bounce back last night BTW.

In my opinion Best is the man for Ireland, and I am pretty sure he will be too.

Flannery has never regained old form since long lay off, but I'd still have him as 2nd choice, Jackman the backup for him. The others aren't in the frame at all.

I dunno, Best offers nothing around the park, which is pretty crucial since the ELV's came in. Whatever about Jackman or Flannery, or even Cronin, who can all play as a auxiliary flanker, Best offers nothing of the sort. All front rowers no have to offer something of a ball carrying option in the loose, have you ever seen Best offer that in any game, for Ulster or Ireland?

redroar1942

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'm just pointing out under his leadership Ulster have gone from a team that competed to win the ML, to one who finished in the bottom half of the table, that also lost it's best players (R. Best and T. Bowe). Yes there have been plenty of other factors, but he's hardly doing a good job there. Since when has pointing out the facts been considered "smart-arsed"?

Whats wrong with you? Does everything post have to decend into my province is better then the rest farce.

But as you highlighted they lost there best players in "R.Best and T.Bowe" so as he's left the province he cant be blamed for its downfall. Just pointing out your facts.

Amazotheamazing

redroar1942 wrote: »

Whats wrong with you? Does everything post have to decend into my province is better then the rest farce.

But as you highlighted they lost there best players in "R.Best and T.Bowe" so as he's left the province he cant be blamed for its downfall. Just pointing out your facts.

They lost them because of what happened within the squad last year. It's fairly common knowledge it wasn't a happy place and Best wasn't able to motivate his players.

Nothing to do with provincial bias, if Jackman can take his ML form to Ireland I'll applaud him for it.

louthandproud

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I dunno, Best offers nothing around the park, which is pretty crucial since the ELV's came in. Whatever about Jackman or Flannery, or even Cronin, who can all play as a auxiliary flanker, Best offers nothing of the sort. All front rowers no have to offer something of a ball carrying option in the loose, have you ever seen Best offer that in any game, for Ulster or Ireland?

First job is to be a hooker, 2nd maybe is to be a ball carrier. I just think Best is the best option to do the hooker basics consistently.

Leadership doesn't really come in to it, I am not nominating him to be captain or pack leader.

redroar1942

I was only trying to wind u up. You claimed that "R.Best" was one of their best players and that he had left.

Amazotheamazing

redroar1942 wrote: »

I was only trying to wind u up. You claimed that "R.Best" was one of their best players and that he had left.

Disaster! I'm going have to learn to read.

Amazotheamazing

louthandproud wrote: »

First job is to be a hooker, 2nd maybe is to be a ball carrier. I just think Best is the best option to do the hooker basics consistently.

Leadership doesn't really come in to it, I am not nominating him to be captain or pack leader.

Perhaps, he's not flawless at set piece either though. I wouldn't think his basics are massively ahead of Flannery (if at all) for what we lose in the loose if we pick him.

louthandproud

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Perhaps, he's not flawless at set piece either though. I wouldn't think his basics are massively ahead of Flannery (if at all) for what we lose in the loose if we pick him.

TBH I think Hooker is a weakness for Ireland. All of the above mentioned have merits and demerits. Bring back Woody I say.
:-)
Or Flannery of a few years ago.

JWAD

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I'm just pointing out under his leadership Ulster have gone from a team that competed to win the ML, to one who finished in the bottom half of the table, that also lost it's best players (R. Best and T. Bowe). Yes there have been plenty of other factors, but he's hardly doing a good job there. Since when has pointing out the facts been considered "smart-arsed"?

Linking a Best captaincy with an Ulster slump is hardly "pointing out facts". You also mention that since the ELVs, a hooker's role is important in a getting around the park role. That would depend on the team in question surely. Watch Ulster's performances. Best is excellent in the tight, a tough scrummager and a dab hand at lineout ball. As well as the ELVs, rucking is vital as possession is no longer a done deal once a ruck is formed thanks to their being reffed as they have been supposed to. Best is excellent in counter-rucking as well as being a top drawer defender.

If you think that his captaincy is the factor in this slump and that he's doing terrible in that role then so be it. Even Mal Maninga would have been hard pushed to get something result-wise from that team. You've stil proven nothing in your claim that Best is not a natural leader.
Certain folk closer to where it matters thankfully think otherwise when it comes to Rory Best so don't be surprised if he takes the Ireland no.2 shirt and makes it his own.

Crash

I still don't get how you can support Fla for ireland at the moment, he is nowhere near what he used to be, and for Munster i'm coming close to mentally picking sheehan for the stability to he adds to set pieces over Flannerys influence in the loose, which has dropped a ridiculous amount in the last year and a half. Not the player he once was, ineffective in the loose, lineout and scrum.

Amazotheamazing

Going Forward wrote: »

I still don't get how you can support Fla for ireland at the moment, he is nowhere near what he used to be, and for Munster i'm coming close to mentally picking sheehan for the stability to he adds to set pieces over Flannerys influence in the loose, which has dropped a ridiculous amount in the last year and a half. Not the player he once was, ineffective in the loose, lineout and scrum.

Who are you referring you? I don't think I've advocated Flannery either. I'm pointing out how limited our options are. Frankly it's become a problem position for us, when it really shouldn't be.

[Jackass]

I disagree. To be honest I think we'll have a Lions hooker.

If we have a good six nations, and if one of our hookers holds down the 2 jersey for the tournament, I think he'll be on the Lions tour. My money is on Jackman too. He suits that role and imo is the most all round hooker we have i.e. set piece and loose.

Keith Wood left big boots to fill and we seemed to lack options (Sheehan was only alternative iirc) until Shane Byrne stepped up and was an all rounder also, good around the park and solid in the set piece and he was on the tour and I think he started in a Lions test also.

I think the best thing that could ever happen during this six nations is for Kidney to mix it up anyway. I think a lot of players are on the starting sheet as default from reputation for years, but Kidney should show that nobody is irreplacable. That could mean the likes of O'Driscoll / D'Arcy being dropped, Horgan, O'Connell, Flannery, Horan - Doesn't matter what your name is, you're dropable - and giving form players like Fitzgerald & Earls game time, Dempsey, Jackman, Cullen, Casey - Quinlan & Wallace have been doing very well and would be first choice, but I think the likes of Jennings & N. Best should get a few starts, Ryan & O'Brien should be capped - possibly Healy - also give Buckley more game time. When you think about it, there really is a lot of depth there if we can use it. We're i that golden hour now where lots of young players are emerging at the same time as the older generation fades out and some others are still only hitting their peak. It's been about 8 years since this kind of squad depth was forming. Crucially though, no one has made themselves an obvious back up for 10 yet though, which is a major concern. Long gone is the Humphries / O'Gara luxury, now that's a problem position, even though there's one player of immense quality there already.

We need to be in a phase of introducing the new generation but also expanding the sqaud by using players that were left out in the cold by EOS so that players who lose form know they will be dropped. That way we'll never have a RWC 07 again. I don't think we should know a first choice team for a couple of seasons, I think there should be 2 or 3 guys in every position that get regular game time - then when time, the team will pick itself and there will be lots of players established in the squad with experience.

Shan75

Despite Jackman's good performaces last year I don't believe he is capable at international level.When he got his chance last year he looked out of his depth.I realise other players at the time were not covering themselves in glory but he just looked out of place, nervous and headless at times.Rory Best, I feel, is the best option we have right now.He is the best at doing the job of a hooker without trying ridiculous flashy things and trying to be a hero.We have enough players who can do the stylish and exciting stuff.Rory Best does his job well, works hard and is better in the tight than the other two.The only part of his game which he needs to improve is his lineout throwing but again he is at least as good as the other two at this.This seems to be an Irish problem as Keith Wood for all his brilliance couldn't throw an accurate lineout ball.Of our most recent Hookers only Shane Byrne was consistently accurate with the darts.

bamboozle

i'm a big Jackman fan but i gotta say its no coincidence that most of his big performances for Leinster have coincided with Leo Cullen playing and calling the line-out,

Much as i'm going to get slated for this i dont think POC has the brain to be calling the lineout for Ireland and for this reason we need a 2nd row of Cullen and POC, if Cullen were to start for Ireland then i'd start Jackman.

New Zealand test this summer, its p1ssing rain, Best just comes on as 2nd half sub, lineout in our half and POC calls a lineout to the tail, which we then lose unsprisingly in the conditions - this just underlined for me that despite his many qualities POC is not a good decision maker,

For the record in Jackman Best and Flannery we've 3 of the best hookers in the northern hemisphere.

Noopti

Sheehan's lineout throwing is awful. I wouldn't even have him on the list tbh.
The Munster lineout is weak at the moment, but I think this is more due to them completely changing how they operate it, and an overhaul of their lineout calls then it becoming predictable, thus for other teams to exploit.

I wouldn't be worried, and I think it will come right soon.

On current form I would have the following:
1. Jackman
2. Best
3. Flannery

redroar1942

[QUOTE Btw, J. Fogarty benched for Munster in the HEC in 2002, and has plenty of experience with Connacht, he has plenty of experience. If Jackman got injured, Leinster wouldn't regret having him in the squad.[/QUOTE]

Did'nt he get dropped for the final though? Seem to remember James Blaney on the bench that day. Has good few A caps to his name though. A decent lineout thrower but a bit light IMO.

homergriffin

bamboozle wrote: »

For the record in Jackman Best and Flannery we've 3 of the best hookers in the northern hemisphere.

That's simply not true: Dimitri Szarzewski, Huw Bennett, Rhys Thomas, Matthew Rees are all much better than both Best and Jackman.

As the Leinster Munster match showed, Flannery is more dominant in every aspect of his game at the moment over Jackman except the lineout. Flannery's lineout throwing will come good over the up and coming weeks and, with Kidney as head coach of Ireland), I don't see either of the other two being picked over him.

I agree with one of the other posters who mentioned Leo Cullen as being the main reason (but not the reason) for the success of the lineout. People seem to be forgetting how key the pack leader is to lineouts and Leo Cullen got great experience at Leicester with Ben Kay.

Crash

I'm not too sure how you can consider Fla more dominant around the field - watch the replay and watch the insane level of defensive work that can be attributed to jackman - Munster would have gotten at least another try had it not been for his continuous work, his tackling, speed and general sense of the game. Fla was a poor imitator around the field. Scrumwise i'd consider them largely at the same level (and if you want a more solid scrum, then it should be Best in there anyhow) and lineout went Jackmans way generally.

Not stating here who should get the Ireland 2 jersey, but in a provincial match Jackman came out pure gold. Being on the winning team doesn't necessarily make you the better player.

edit: agree with you on Cullen however - In a fair few cases its aided immensely by the fact that himself and Mal are excellent lineout operators.

mcerc

Best in no way shape or form be Irelands first choice hooker. This is because on a consistent basis he gives away stupid and lazy penalties in key areas of the field at international level. I'd much rather have Flannery or Jackman missing line outs then the automatic 3 points best gives away when he plays at international level. he also adds nothing to the loose.

marco_polo

mcerc wrote: »

Best in no way shape or form be Irelands first choice hooker. This is because on a consistent basis he gives away stupid and lazy penalties in key areas of the field at international level. I'd much rather have Flannery or Jackman missing line outs then the automatic 3 points best gives away when he plays at international level. he also adds nothing to the loose.

Flannery is probably the marginally the most rounded hooker of the three, but he is not as good as Jackman in the Loose or Best when it comes to set pieces.

I don't have a particularly strong opinion about which plays TBH, I don't rate any of them much above decent at international level, except to say said that Jackman surely cannot have many more chances left at this stage to transfer his excellent club form to the international stage. If he gets a start in green this season he must grab the opportunity.

Crash

I'd agree with you on that - if jackman gets a shot, he has to grab it with both hands - and I don't think that even his most die hard fans can argue if he doesnt perform at International level that he can't raise his form for it.

marco_polo

Going Forward wrote: »

I'd agree with you on that - if jackman gets a shot, he has to grab it with both hands - and I don't think that even his most die hard fans can argue if he doesnt perform at International level that he can't raise his form for it.

It has been hard to properly judge any players on the back of the shambolic setup of the 18 months of so, as there was no real baseline against which to make a proper judgement.

I expect a well organised and motivated Ireland team over the coming season and it should enable us to properly evaluate players with question marks still hanging over them like Jackman (and other more established players with suspect form).