Legality of NV Monocular

Tigger

[this was split from the Airsoft News thread as it was being taken off topic and not started by Tigger - Gandalf]

is it legal to mount these
is there any point

kevteljeur

Tigger wrote: »

is it legal to mount these
is there any point

a) Very dubious. Although, we're not mounting them. Just using them.

b) Yes, because the evenings are drawing in, and they'll be very handy for night or near-dark games, to play without giving yourself away... I can't afford one, but if I could I've definitely get one.

Tigger

kevteljeur wrote: »

a) Very dubious. Although, we're not mounting them. Just using them.

b) Yes, because the evenings are drawing in, and they'll be very handy for night or near-dark games, to play without giving yourself away... I can't afford one, but if I could I've definitely get one.

so i shouldn't think of mounting then more of ouuking through them with a helmet mount etc?

Nodin

kevteljeur wrote: »

a) Very dubious..

Cen Fath?

kevteljeur

Tigger wrote: »

so i shouldn't think of mounting then more of ouuking through them with a helmet mount etc?

Well, you wouldn't want to be discussing doing the same, if you follow me. I've heard that it's in that same grey area as our friend the laser, so I'd say we could discuss the quality of the device as a night vision device, but not mounting it. Although by the look of it that's probably a lost cause already...

We'd better ask a mod.

Nodin wrote: »

Cen Fath?

To the best of my knowledge (and I could be talking through my derriere) it's classified in the same way as, say, rifle scopes. These things are not to be mounted on a rifle or similar, but we would really need to get clarification from someone, such as Bullets or someone from the IAA, who is versed in these things. So I won't comment further because I'll muddy the waters and as above, let's ask a mod.

gandalf

My understanding is you cannot affix these to an AEG or GBB, if you do its illegal. Unsure of the situation with a helmet but very sure about the AEG/GBB it is illegal to fit them to one.

The mounting screwhole on this unit is to fit a Tripod Plate and allow it to be used on a tripod to hold it steady while you are birdwatching or whatever.

Hivemind187

Bascially the law expressly forbids the use of telescopic sights incorporating an infra red beam. Attaching one of these to your AEG could be prosecuted under these rules.

It's flakey, its grey, but there it is.

Fayer will be able to explain better.

Tigger

shame thats the only way i'd bother

could clarification be sought or is it too doggy a subject to approach

Doomofman

Why is it illegal? I don't get it

kevteljeur

They are still very, very useful for locating opposing players - especially in half-light, where you can make out structures but not what's in the shadows, or to prevent getting ambushed. These don't seem to be particularly useful as an actual scope in any event, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong...

Thanks to Gandalf and Hive for clarification on the legal issues.

gandalf

Basically it is extremely gray.

I suppose the clarification they sent to the laser issue could be used here but my reading of that would be once they cannot be fitted to a firearm they are fine, once they are though they are illegal.

As AEG's etc are the same shape as a Firearm the fact that you have fitted the device to an AEG would mean it could be fitted to the real thing therefore making them illegal. Head wreaking I know !!

Stercus Accidit

They are covered by the same law that covers lasers.

So,

the same definition that we use for the lasers should apply.

If they aren't intended to or designed to be used on a fire arm, they are legal.

Thats the doj's stance on the lasers, the nv is covered in the same law, logically it should be the same thing.

If you want to attach lidl nv monoculars to your aeg with gaffer tape though, is another story entirely.


DOJ statement as posted on forum regarding lasers, but NV is in the same category.

(i) As previously stated "lasers of less than 5 milli Watts in the light frequencies of 630 to 680nm" would not be considered to be firearms in accordance with Section 1(d) of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended. Accordingly, should you attach that strength of laser to airsoft with a muzzle energy of less than 1 joule, the status of both the laser and airsoft remain outside the definition of a firearm.

(ii) I draw your attention to Section 1(g)(i) of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended which provides that the definition of a firearm includes;

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope
sights with an electronic light amplification
device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted
to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b),(c) or (e),

Accordingly such (telescope sights with infra-red device, etc) should be specifically designed only for use with non - firearms

Doomofman

Motosam wrote: »

They are covered by the same law that covers lasers.

So,

the same definition that we use for the lasers should apply.

If they aren't intended to or designed to be used on a fire arm, they are legal.

Thats the doj's stance on the lasers, the nv is covered in the same law, logically it should be the same thing.

If you want to attach lidl nv monoculars to your aeg with gaffer tape though, is another story entirely.

What you mean?

ED E

Wait wait wait...if I stick my handycam with IR mode on the top of my AEG is it then illegal The range is ****e but its still NV none the less...

Doomofman

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Wait wait wait...if I stick my handycam with IR mode on the top of my AEG is it then illegal The range is ****e but its still NV none the less...

Exactly.. it would be like saying if you duct taped a tennis racket to your AEG suddenly it's illegal

gandalf

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Wait wait wait...if I stick my handycam with IR mode on the top of my AEG is it then illegal The range is ****e but its still NV none the less...

Yes it could be argued that it is illegal. As we said its an extremely Gray area.

Does the device have to be designed for use on a firearm or does the fact you can fit it however temporarly to a AEG (and ergo the real thing because it is a replica) render it illegal. Personally I would err on the side of caution on this one myself.

Stercus Accidit

It just looks like the same craic with the lasers, if we were to bother annoying the DOJ again about this, along the lines of "If we use lidl nv on our toys are we breaking the law?", I imagine they will say the same thing as the lasers, there will be a brief period where every aeg has an NV device of some kind bodged onto it, and a month later, no-one will care.

How many people skirmish with lasers on their aeg's?

One game of playing spot the tiny faint red dot and most people give up on the whole ludicrous idea.

gandalf

Moved these to a separate thread as it was taking the news one offtopic.

Hivemind187

What motosam has posted is essentially correct (and thanks because I didnt have the time to grab the specific reference).

From reading of the text one could suppose that it would mean that such devices, since they are not specifically manufactured to be attached to a firearm are ok for use.

HOWEVER

Duct taping or otherwise affixing any device to any other device constitutes a kind of construction (albeit a bodged job). This could be construed to be a means of manufacture (for the love of christ don't start with me about definitions here, its not the english language we're using it's "legalese"). As such, it means that the intented usage, and thus its construction, is designed to be used on a firearm (by extention that AEG's are replicas of same).

Bothering the DoJ about this will likely yield the same result as the lasers issue however I would question whether its a good idea at present when there are far more important issues at stake (i.e. whether or not the coming "head" is going to put us in the stocks).

In terms of what your kit can and cant do you are WAY better off attaching any NV to your helmet instead since it will permit you to look around without looking through the sights of your gun. Why on earth would anyone want to limit themselves by affixing their NV to their gun?

Tigger

Tigger wrote: »

[this was split from the Airsoft News thread as it was being taken off topic and not started by Tigger - Gandalf]

is it legal to mount these
is there any point

thanks gandalf but i didn't know whether it was ok to talk about this

Motosam wrote: »

It just looks like the same craic with the lasers, if we were to bother annoying the DOJ again about this, along the lines of "If we use lidl nv on our toys are we breaking the law?", I imagine they will say the same thing as the lasers, there will be a brief period where every aeg has an NV device of some kind bodged onto it, and a month later, no-one will care.

How many people skirmish with lasers on their aeg's?

One game of playing spot the tiny faint red dot and most people give up on the whole ludicrous idea.

thats a funny yet good post

Hivemind187 wrote: »

What motosam has posted is essentially correct (and thanks because I didnt have the time to grab the specific reference).


Bothering the DoJ about this will likely yield the same result as the lasers issue however I would question whether its a good idea at present when there are far more important issues at stake (i.e. whether or not the coming "head" is going to put us in the stocks).

ahree compeltley

In terms of what your kit can and cant do you are WAY better off attaching any NV to your helmet instead since it will permit you to look around without looking through the sights of your gun. Why on earth would anyone want to limit themselves by affixing their NV to their gun?

it would be a night vision scope on a gun thats why

Stercus Accidit

Well flip side of the coin is this,

the lasers we use in airsoft could not be used on a real gun, they are for aiming, on a real gun they would lose their zero setting once the gun was fired due to recoil.

The NV monocular is not for aiming, but seeing in the dark, fitted to a real gun, it would still see in the dark.

So the reason an airsoft laser is allowed is it is useless on a real gun, an NV device would still technically do its job if bodged to an aeg or a gun.

Feck it, if this becomes the new "lasers on aegs" I'll kick myself.

Hivemind187

Motosam wrote: »

Feck it, if this becomes the new "lasers on aegs" I'll kick myself.

too late

*hands you a kicking boot*

spicymchaggis

i have the atn viper which is not designed for guns as it attached to a head harness and noone has had a problem with me using it though i will say the IR led gives you away sometimes

fayer

Hi Guy's,

Grey on this one is not the word :rolleyes:, brake it down and it makes more sense.


What is not allowed

1. telescope sights with a light beam
2. telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device
3. [telescope sights with an infra-red device] (Possible Judaical construction of wording)
4. an infra-red device

designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b),(c) or (e) (Key point)

I have not got the books out as of yet to do a detailed look into this issue, or any previous case law, if the device is not designed to be used with a firearm its looking safe. BUT the purpose of the section is to prevent people from slapping night vision on firearms, flip of coin situation.

I Will do more research and post a full opinion over the weekend.

Regards
Steve

Nodin

Ty to all for the explanations. Like the lunatic I am, I presumed the important part was the capabilities of what a sight/scope was attached to.

Unfortunately the Aldi down my way had sold out of them on Thursday, (but on the bright side theres now no risk of my nephew affixing one to some Nerf weapon by means of blu-tac).

hoplite

The Aldi NVG is not designed to be mounted on a firearm I think most reasonable people would agree.

An AEG shooting a 0.2g bb at less than a joule is not a firearm I think we can all agree or else find another pastime.

Mounting an NVG (not designed for a firearm) on an AEG (not a firearm) and using it in the context of a night skirmish in a controlled environment at an airsoft site?

HarryHirsch

This device is far to big to mont it somewhere. Better take this http://www.ge-ha-tec.com/tech/index_e.htm?gclid=CP3Z4_-kjJYCFQoTuwodYEMWEw

Hivemind187

hoplite wrote: »

The Aldi NVG is not designed to be mounted on a firearm I think most reasonable people would agree.

Most reasonable "airsofters" or people used to shooting issues. The average "man in the street" or what is referred to in legal terms as the "reasonable man" is an entirely different creature.

hoplite wrote: »

An AEG shooting a 0.2g bb at less than a joule is not a firearm I think we can all agree or else find another pastime.

Yeah, pretty much, but for clarity;

Any device incorporating a barrel with a muzzle energy of equal to or less than 1 joule is not considered a firearm.

hoplite wrote: »

Mounting an NVG (not designed for a firearm) on an AEG (not a firearm) and using it in the context of a night skirmish in a controlled environment at an airsoft site?

Personally I agree that in terms of airsoft there is no danger - but then there are a lot of things in airsoft that pose no danger but the powers that be hold different opinions on these issues (mainly due to the way the law is written).

As it stands, the facts that airsoft equipment is so close to the real thing implies that manufacturing a system by which an NV device, incorporating an infra red beam so that it may attach to a replica firearm could be construed as breaking the law.

The issue lies in the fact that our kit is so close to the real thing. In most cases, if you can attach it to an airsoft you could attach it to a real piece (durability and credibility for use issues aside). Even slapping blu-tac, string or duct tape on it to make it sit in one place on a rifle is manufacturing a means to affix it in position and could - theoretically - be a breach of the law as written.

Again, I would point out that a rifle with NV on it is idiotic from a tactical point of view. Having the monocular on your lid is by far the best approach since it allows you to move your head and view normally rather than having the restriction of having to look through the guns optics ALL the time.

Genghiz Cohen

Doomofman wrote: »

Exactly.. it would be like saying if you duct taped a tennis racket to your AEG suddenly it's illegal

Irish law is messed up and hard to understand in more than one place.
Best to play it safe, yes?

bullets

I've used Gen1 and Gen2 NV equipment.
Gen1 is crud Gen2 is nice. Would love to get my grubby
mits on Gen3 stuff.

Firstly Aldi Nightvision is crap! spend yer money on
a pistol or AEG instead!
Good with LOTS of external IR illuminator light and no
other light interference pure ****e with moonlight only
without the aid of external IR.

(I've had several different gen1 NV over the years all crap
ID love Thermal optics or gen3 NV but alas way too expensive)

Second...its not designed to be fitted to a firearm or an Airsoft device so I say duct tape to whatever the feck you want its not breaking any laws. (But Im not a Lawyer so its
only my opinion)

I honestly dont know why in this day and age there are
still ristrictions in place for real-steel firearms optics which
use light amplification devices like NV scopes! In Ireland Hunters can go Lamping with Flood/Spot lights attached to their firearms but need apply for permision to use scopes that use Night Vision, Stupid Stupid ancient laws from the past. They somehow are holding onto silly Paranoid thoughts of just cos someone has a NV scope that they are automatically up to no good or are some sort of terriorist.

~B