MA in real life?

mirwillbeback

Hi,

Just wondering if any of you people on here have had to use your training in real life fights?

Did your training work or was it just windmills?;)

I've only had to subdue one person since I started training jits, and the knee on belly worked for me, though in fairness I think I could have subdued him even if I'd never trained ( he was 6 - nah, he just wasn't strong or handy )

And one last question - is it safe to choke someone out on the street, are there complications if they are drunk, on drugs etc?

Cheers

Dragan

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Hi,

Just wondering if any of you people on here have had to use your training in real life fights?

Did your training work or was it just windmills?;)

I've only had to subdue one person since I started training jits, and the knee on belly worked for me, though in fairness I think I could have subdued him even if I'd never trained ( he was 6 - nah, he just wasn't strong or handy )

And one last question - is it safe to choke someone out on the street, are there complications if they are drunk, on drugs etc?

Cheers

Certain aspects of things i have trained have come through but if i am honest doorwork was largely based on me being stronger than everyone i was dealing with and a good deal faster than i should have been for a guy my size.

Any fight i was ever in largely boiled down to hitting someone with something, didn't really matter what.

The "serious" incidents ( that is to say weapons pulled ) were a blur of either running, door closing of once again hitting someone with something.

I'm sure there are people out there who expertly deliver there training in a street fight but i'm just not one of them. It's never really worked out that way for me and i'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way for anyone.

Funnily enough, the last time i had trouble i didn't want to hit the guy so just took him down and the second he hit the ground he pretty much froze up. That was an odd one.

As for the chokes, i have never worked anywhere that was cool with you applying any kind of choke. Just too dodgy really.

jim o doom

One of the instructors in my Kenpo club is a doorman as well (he does doce pares eskrima & kenpo) and from the stuff that goes on at doors from his stories, it sounds like he uses "tricks" that he has learned from martial arts but no techniques really, just get in fast and take em out. He has used chokes once or twice I think - and definitely various arm locks to control unruly punters.. but I think arm locks are a bouncer special, I've been subject to at least one in my life (about 8 year ago) :)This is second hand information - I don't really get in fights, which is a good thing to me, so I've never really had to put my training to use, (which I hope is a good thing..) other than in class that is

Dragan

jim o doom wrote: »

(he does doce pares eskrima & kenpo)

Would his initials be DH per chance?

Roper

Listen I know I'll get flak for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

The gym and the fights I train for (too infrequently) ARE my real life. I honestly don't think about fighting on the street, and the few times I've had to through bits of work I've done for people it's been fairly handy and not too nasty at all, I think because I'm big enough and confident enough that if I can handle some of the monsters on the mat then I can handle some boozed up bloke lookin to come into a club. I think a lot fo guys because they have a few bits they've picked up are just mad to fight just to see. Most fighters I know don't do that, they don't need to.

Quick example of what I mean. Some bloke followed me into the jacks in Citibar last week because I refused to shake his hand or tell him where I was from or something. He tried to start on me while I was having a slash, so I just turned around and shook his hand. Joke was on him I hadn't had time to wash. Of course I could have fought him. He was píssed and I had a couple of drinks too so who knows what would have happened? Who cares? All I know is it's not worth my while to do it. Giving him a clatter would have given me great pleasure though!

jim o doom

Dragan wrote: »

Would his initials be DH per chance?

Nope, first initial is P - can't remember second, he won the over 50's competition in Eskrima when he went abroad this year and writes some bits and pieces for the Irish martial arts mag (if thats the name of the mag im not too sure) also, possibly one of the angriest dudes I've ever met! but sound as well, as long as ur willing to train hard

jim o doom

Roper wrote: »

Listen I know I'll get flak for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

The gym and the fights I train for (too infrequently) ARE my real life. I honestly don't think about fighting on the street, and the few times I've had to through bits of work I've done for people it's been fairly handy and not too nasty at all, I think because I'm big enough and confident enough that if I can handle some of the monsters on the mat then I can handle some boozed up bloke lookin to come into a club. I think a lot fo guys because they have a few bits they've picked up are just mad to fight just to see. Most fighters I know don't do that, they don't need to.

Quick example of what I mean. Some bloke followed me into the jacks in Citibar last week because I refused to shake his hand or tell him where I was from or something. He tried to start on me while I was having a slash, so I just turned around and shook his hand. Joke was on him I hadn't had time to wash. Of course I could have fought him. He was píssed and I had a couple of drinks too so who knows what would have happened? Who cares? All I know is it's not worth my while to do it. Giving him a clatter would have given me great pleasure though!

You are right to an extent, your strength, training & ability should give you an advantage - but on the street there are no rules, which means he can go for your nuts, try to take out your eyes, bite a lump out of your ribs if you have him in a headlock, pull a knife, break a pint glass, have a mate standing near by you didn't realise was with him, could be wired on something and simply not feel any punches etc that you are landing on them- there's a HELL of a lot more variables on the street than in competition. This is again learned information from those who have a lot of "street" experience.
One fun story was our top guy telling us about was when he was in a headlock and went to pull the guys head back using his hair, the guys hair pulled out & the guy tried to bite him - moral of story? grab the face not the hair

mirwillbeback

The reason I was asking, was I heard of a scumbag that used to hang around my area being scalded in prison by boiling water and salt and it reminded me of my incident with him.
It was 1997 and I had done absolutely no training in my life. Left the local pub with my gf at the time to head to Dun Laoghaire and saw this young lad I knew to see at his house opposite. I was laughing with my gf when he approached me and said " why are you laughing " - I told him it was nothing to do with him and went to walk away. He said he'd be back and he walked back to his house.
I then see him arguing with his mother as he left his house again and he approached me concealing something. I was ****ting myself, and thought it was a knife but luckily (!) it was a hammer. He went for me with a big swing and I clinched ( hugged ) him to get out of the way. I wrestled for the hammer and he pulled my finger back and broke it, but I took the hammer off him and went to walk away. Now it gets surreal - his mother runs over as I'm walking away and him behind threatening me, she comes up with " just give him back the hammer and it will be over ", and his jack russell was barking at me trying to bite me! I walked back to the local and held out my arm with the hammer to the bouncers. He then ran at me and hit me to the side of the head, but when I went to grab him the doormen held me and pulled me inside.
He was outside shouting he was going to stab me ( which he did to someone else and got sent away for ) and I was panicking.
Eventually, he was given a hiding by a mate of mine and warned not to come near me. I only saw him once since and we ignored each other, though I was still very nervous inside.
Thing is, if it happened now, though my technique would be good and I would be confident enough to take him down and control him, I still don't think I have the aggression in me to do damage, despite all my training. I'd be more concerned with holding him down until others came along to split it up.
I'm not sure if that's a weakness or a strength to be honest, and as confident as I am when training, I can't seem to translate that confidence to everyday life. Don't get me wrong, I don't like or want violence, but I am still very easily intimidated.

jim o doom

The points you make are very good; I suspect its different with Dragan or anyone who has to deal with violence on a regular basis, because they have to deal with it - myself I don't get intimidated easily - angry more like; however the few times in the past when I did get in a fight (they were fairly minor), they were simply "mills" as you described them. Bizarrely I remember thinking once or twice during a fight long go (I could do this or this) but I didn't, because the fact of the matter is, the things I could have done were unnecessary & I didn't want to injure someone too badly. As it was both of us got a few punches each in the head, fight over. Some of the stuff the teach us in kenpo is well horrible, the thought of doing it to an actual person is a little disgusting.. that being said I've been training a lot more & am much further along in kenpo than I was the last time I was in a fight i.e. last fight = orange belt, now am green (three belts further) and working hard for brown - so like most of what I've been saying, it's academic to me until I really HAVE to use it.

That being said, it certainly does help giving your shoves, elbows and anything else that might come in handy during a chronic mosh pit extra power! heh heh

Einstein

started wit MA when i was about 7...constantly drifting from one style to another as I get bored with the same kinda train of thought over and over.
In that time (i'm 30 now) I've never had the need to use it, and luckily have never been in any serious confrontations.
I did my time as a doorman too, luckily working with a super bunch of lads who were a frieldnly group and had no cockiness about them which as we all know can be all too common in lots of doorstaff.
I've mostly been able to talk my way out of situations, which is what I'll strive to do 100% of the time...The most memorable was when I was standin next to a fellow doorman who was 6.7 and 16 stone...some scummer walks up to us and said pointing at my mate.." I know why your a bouncer, but what about YOU" and he pokes me in the chest...I just said in the nicest way possible to take a swing and find out . After that he thought I was sound lol.
But the biggest thing I've needed to do was use some restraint...so touch wood it continues that way!

Mark Hamill

In relation to what the OP said about safety of chokes, I found this article which examined Deaths allegedly caused by choke holds carried out by police:

Deaths Allegedly Caused by the Use of "Choke Holds" (Shime-Waza)
by E. K. Koiwai, M.D.

ABSTRACT: Shime-waza or the "choke hold," when property applied, should not cause death; therefore, its primary purpose should be to subdue violent suspects. When properly applied, the choke hold causes unconsciousness in 10-20 seconds. No fatalities as a result of shime-waza have been reported in the sport of judo since its inception in 1882. Among the methods of "control holds" taught to law enforcement officers is the choke hold similar or identical to shime-waza used in judo. Using the choke hold, officers may afford themselves maximum safety while subjecting the suspect to a minimum possibility of injury. The author has reviewed 14 fatalities with autopsy findings where death was allegedly caused by the use of choke holds.

The "choke holds" known as shime-waza used in the sport of judo have been taught and used by law enforcement officers to subdue violent suspects. Recently, however, there have been reports of deaths allegedly caused by the use of choke holds, which have led to class action suits against its use from local to state to the U.S. Supreme Court. Apparently, the use of choke holds was thought to be a safe and harmless way of controlling and subduing violent suspect s without the use of weapons. The use of choke holds or shime-waza in judo is similar or identical to the techniques used by the law enforcement officers.

Investigations have shown that no deaths had occurred by these techniques since the sport of judo was founded by Professor Jigoro Kano in 1882 in Tokyo, Japan. A survey made by this author in 1979, based on a questionnaire to all International Judo Federation (IJF) country members, revealed that although there were 19 judo fatalities, none was due to shime-waza.

The statistics in the use of shime-waza have been kept by the International Judo Federation on World Class Judo Championships, Olympics (Munich-1972, Montreal-1976, Moscow-1980, and Los Angeles-1984), World Judo Championships (Mexico City-1969, Ludwigshafen-1971, Lausanne-1973, Vienna-1975, Paris-1979, and Maastricht- 1981), and the Junior World Judo Championships in Rio de Janiero-1974. Of the 2198 techniques used to score, 97 were shime-waza (4.41%). No fatalities were recorded.

As of 1985, 113 countries are members of the IJF. All these federations have numerous tournaments at local, regional, national, and international levels where shime-waza is used.

In 1981, a class action suit was brought against the City of Los Angeles regarding fatalities allegedly caused by the "bar-arrn" and carotid artery control holds. The control holds used are similar to the shime-waza used in judo. Since no death has been reported in the sport of judo. other studies on cases of deaths allegedly caused by the use of choke holds had to be investigated.

Case 1 - 5/75

The strong decedent, who was a black male, age, 25-30, 111.4 kg, height 195.6 cm, resisted violently, The two officers used their batons and physical holds (choke) to handcuff and place leg restraints on the decedent. He was transported to the police station where on arrival no pulse could be found. He was then rushed to the hospital where doctors could not find any vital signs.

The reported cause of death was asphyxiation as a result of manual compression of neck.

Case 2 - 8/75

The decedent, who was a white male age 21, 52.3 kg, height 185.4 cm, was reported to have taken lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) four days before his death. The arresting officer applied "restraint" on the man's neck. The decedent was transported to the police station in a convulsive state, then collapsed and did not respond to stimuli.

The reported cause of death was not only mechanical asphyxia but also by compression of the vascular circulation to the brain.

Case 3 - 11/75

An altercation ensued with the decedent, who was a black male age 28, 80.9 kg, height 177.8 cm, and the police. The officers tried to apply an approved type of choke hold and the decedent became unconscious at the scene.

The reported cause of death was acute cardiorespiratory arrest as a result of compression of the neck. The other significant condition was acute heroin-morphine intoxication.

Case 4 - 10/76

The suspect, who was a black male age 19, 72.7 kg, height 181.6 cm, was in custody of the police as a possible case of angel dust inhalation. The arresting officer used a neck hold to restrain the suspect. He had cardiorespiratory arrest in the back seat of the police car. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) was instituted. The paramedics found the decedent in agonal rhythm with vomitus in his mouth. CPR used in the field and at the emergency room was not effective. The autopsy findings were:

The reported cause of death was asphyxiation to neck restraint procedure for abnormal behavior associated with phencyclidine (PCP) use. Other significant conditions were aspiration of vomitus and sickle cell disorder.

Case 5 - 7/77

After being legally arrested for teroristic threats and creating a turmoil, this white male, age 25, 71.8 kg, height 180.3 cm, was placed in the rear of the police car. He kicked out the rear window, exited through the broken window, and continued to kick and strike at the officer. The decedent was subdued by an officer who, using his flashlight as a choke stick, grabbed the subject about the neck and tried to choke him while bringing him down to the ground. The subject continued to fight; consequently, the officer rolled him over on his stomach and continued to keep "hold" on him until the subject was handcuffed. The "hold" on him was repeated when the subject started to fight again. Finally, the subject was placed in a police wagon, with wrists and ankles handcuffed, face down. The subject was transported to an emergency room; however, after he was placed on a wheel chair, he was found to be unconscious and was finally pronounced dead.

The reported cause of death was cardiorespiratory arrest caused by asphyxia as a result of strangulation and aspiration of gastric contents.

Case 6 - 1/78

The subject, who was a black male age 21, 81.8 kg, height 185.4 cm, was taken into custody for possibly being under the influence of PCP and reckless driving. The police had to use neck restraint in the arresting procedure. He was taken to jail, but then broke the restraints and had to be restrained again. Later in the evening, in his cell, he was found not to be breathing. Then he was taken to the hospital and was pronounced dead on arrival (DOA).

The reported cause of death was sudden cardiorespiratory collapse in a psychotic patient with severe stress and exhaustion after prolonged combativeness, sleeplessness, and refusal to take nourishment.

Case 7 - 2/78

The decedent, a black male age 34, 72.3 kg, height 177.8 cm, was combative while being arrested, so a bar arm control hold was used. He kicked the driver during transport, and, at the station, restraints were used and a bar arm control hold had to be used again. He was transported to another jail which had padded cells. During transport he was placed on a gurney, face down, but the subject appeared to be unconscious at that time. He was placed in a padded cell, but at that time the subject was not breathing. He was transported to the dispensary where all attempts failed to revive him.

The reported cause of death was asphyxia as a result of neck compression during restraining procedure. The other significant condition was interstitial myocardial fibrosis.

Case 8 - 7/78

The decedent, a black male, age 39, 58.6 kg, height 170.2 cm, had a family dispute, then turned on the officer on the scene, and the subject was eventually subdued by a "regular choke hold." When he became unconscious, he was cuffed and carried outside; he was still unconscious as the rescue ambulance arrived. He was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.

The reported cause of death was asphyxia as a result of neck compression during restraining procedure.

Case 9 - 1/80

The subject, a white male, age 32, 61.4 kg, height 172.7 cm, was stopped for a traffic violation. Getting out of the car, he brandished a knife The officers subdued him with a choke hold and placed him in the police car. At this point, he "passed out." He was transported to the hospital and died while in custody. The subject was a suspected drug dealer and abuser.

The reported cause of death was hypoxic encephalopathy as a result of respiratory arrest following struggle with police officers while in a state of acute ethanol and cocaine intoxication.

Case 10 - 3/80

The subject, a black male, age 41, 66.2 kg, height 167.6 cm, was in the lobby of a hotel, yelling and screaming at an off-duty officer. The officer applied a "bar arm control hold" on the decedent and he "went down." The paramedics were called and worked on the subject at the scene. They then transported him to a hospital where he was pronounced dead.

The reported cause of death was acute cardiorespiratory arrest as a result of carotid control hold of neck. The other significant condition was non-specific cardiomyopathy.

Case 11 - 3/82

The decedent, a white male age 21, 81.8 kg, height 182.9 cm, an apparent psychotic inmate in jail, put up a tremendous struggle several times, and was finally subdued by four detention officers. One applied a carotid artery choke hold "not more than 20 seconds," and the subject was placed in leather restraints attached to a cell bunk, face down. The inmate stopped struggling, developed a weak pulse and shallow breathing, and became cyanotic. A nurse and paramedics were called. He was resuscitated by the paramedics but expired a few days later in the hospital.

The reported cause of death was hypoxic encephalopathy, probable forearm strangulation.

Case 12

During the 1981 Sixth International Judo Federation (IJF) Medical Symposium in Maastricht, Netherlands, 31 Aug. 1981, Kjell Salling of Norway called attention to a fatal case as a result of choking. The death was reported in Paris, France, June 1954. The accident was published and reported by newspapers, Le Parisien Libere and France-Soir on 24 June 1954. The incident was also reported in the Official Bulletin of the French Judo Federation. Investigation revealed that the death was not in the sport of judo, but a method called "Vo et Vat" taught by a Vietnamese instructor. Vo et Vat was estimated to be a more violent form of judo. The method was not recognized by the French Judo Federation and the instructor was not a member of that organization.

The subject was a 34 year old male Vietnamese Vo et Vat instructor who was "choked" by one of his own students, age 17. For demonstration purposes, the student was ordered by the instructor to use all his strength when he applied a reverse cross choke (gyaku jujime). This choke is applied from above with the instructor lying on his back on the mat. The instructor was going to demonstrate a method of resistance and counter attack. The instructor was not able to counter attack, and the student, after the passing of "some minutes," exhausted by his effort, terminated the "choking." The instructor apparently died on the mat. Hs demise was witnessed by his students, who were sitting around the two demonstrating. A doctor was summoned, but he could only state that the instructor was dead. The autopsy findings were published in the Annales de Medicine Legale.

The reported cause of death was not only by mechanical asphyxia but also by compression of the vascular circulation to the brain.

Case 13

A 58-year-old retired janitor suffered cardiac arrest two years before and was successfully resuscitated, but showed evidence of hypoxic brain damage which caused personality changes. He was committed to a mental hospital because of withdrawn behavior. He had arteriosclerotic heart disease; his electrocardiogram (EKG) showed premature ventricular contractures which was partially controlled by quinidine.

When an order was granted, two police officers were dispatched to his home to bring him to the hospital. Coaxing by the police officers proved futile. In an attempt to overpower and handcuff him, one officer stepped behind the victim and grabbed him about the neck. The hold intended by the officer was the carotid sleeper with the neck of the victim in the crook of the arm and forearm of the officer. After a brief but violent struggle, during which both the officer and victim fell to the floor, the victim became lifeless. He did not respond to CPR. An EKG taken during resuscitation showed cardiac arrest. Witnesses, including family members, stated that the entire struggle lasted only a "short time," with the neck hold in place several seconds.

The reported cause of death was cardiac arrest, arteriosclerotic hypertensive heart disease, and neck compression, contributory, classified as homicide.

Case 14

A 35-year-old manual laborer was taken into custody for threatening his wife with a shotgun. He had been treated on many occasions for manic depressive psychosis and had been on maintenance dose of lithium. On the third day in jail, although on lithium, he became combative, disruptive, and threatened the life of another prisoner. He resisted the restraining attempt of six guards, but was finally overpowered and handcuffed and moved to a solitary confinement cell where he remained violent and combative.

He was forced face down on the bunk while the handcuffs were removed and replaced by nylon flex cuffs. During this time, a guard put the victim's head in a neck hold which the guard described as the carotid sleeper. The prisoner ceased to struggle aand the guards left him to recover. A few minutes later when a guard returned to check on the prisoner, the prisoner was found apneic. CPR was immediately begun, and in a matter of minutes medical personnel arrived at the scene. EKG showed fine ventricular fibrillation which progressed to cardiac standstill.

The reported cause of death was neck hold.

Choke Holds Used by the Police

The Carotid Takedown Modified and Control

A right-handed officer maneuvers behind the suspect, wraps his right arm around the suspect's neck between the throat and the carotid. At this point, pressure is applied to the suspect's neck between the throat and the carotid artery with the lower forearm. The suspect is then pulled backwards so that the suspect's back is in contact with the officer's chest. The technique is the same as hadakajime used in judo in the standing position. The suspect is then pulled down to a sitting position. If the suspect continues to resist, the move is made to go into the "locked carotid control." The officer can do this by driving the right thumb into the left armpit, then griping the upper left arm with the right hand. The right arm is flexed and the left hand is extended beyond the right shoulder. This maneuver will draw the officer's right arm tighter around the neck.

The Bar Arm Takedown and Control

In the event that the suspect is uncontrollable and the officer is unable to apply the modified carotid hold, the officer may have to resort to the bar arm to take the suspect down. The locked bar arm control is performed by gripping the left biceps with the right hand. At the same time, the officer bears down with the left and against the back of down to a sitting position with the same maneuver as the carotid takedown and control. This technique is the same as the one method of hadakajime (naked choke-lock) used in judo.

It is important to point out that the police training manuals emphasize that the application of pressure must be stopped as soon as the suspect ceases resisting or goes limp. When a situation escalates to the point that a control hold is necessary to restrain and control a suspect, both the officer and the suspect are prone to injury. It is preferable to use persuasion and command presence to control a situation. When it does become necessary to apply a control hold, proficiency with the control holds described will help to restrain a combative suspect.

Discussion

The 14 fatalities presented were allegedly caused by "choke holds", 13 by law enforcement officers, 1 by a student learning Vo et Vat, a Vietnamese version of judo. In the sport of judo, which started in 1882, no fatalities have been reported. Judoists are taught to apply shime-waza using the principle "maximum efficiency with minimum effort." The maximum pressure is applied directly on the "carotid triangle" without applying the pressure on other parts of e neck, causing unnecessary damage. In all 14 cases, this author has noted evidence of injuries to the structures of the neck from bruises, ecchymosis, hemorrhages to fractures of the cartilage of the neck (Cases 1, 5, 10, 13, and 14), and intervertebral discs (Case 7). Submucosal or mucosal injuries are noted in the larynx in Cases 1, 2, 6, 11, and 13, All these findings indicate that tremendous force was exerted on the necks of the suspects.

If the carotid artery hold is properly applied, unconsciousness occurs in approximately 10 seconds (8-14 seconds). After release, the subject regains consciousness spontaneously in 10-20 seconds. Neck pressure of 250 mm of Hg or 5 kg of rope tension is required to occlude carotid arteries. The amount of pressure to collapse the airway is six times greater.

Anatomically, the anterior cervical triangle of the neck contains the superior carotid triangle. The pressure can be applied to either side. The anterior cervical triangleis a triangle bordered by the sternocleidomastoid muscle (large neck strap muscle) laterally, the mandible jaw bone above, and medially by the cervical midline, a line drawn from the tip of the jaw to the sternal notch. Within the anterior cervical triangle, there are three smaller triangles:

* submandibular (submaxillary or digastric)
* superior carotid
* inferior carotid (muscular).

In the technique of choking, the most important triangle is the superior carotid which contains important structures. This triangle is bordered by the stylohyoid and the posterior belly of the digastric muscle above, the anterior border of the sternocleidomastoid muscle medially. Within the superior carotid triangle are the common carotid artery and branches, the carotid bodies, internal jugular vein, vagus nerve and branches, superior laryngeal nerve, and cervical sympathetic trunk.

Overlying this superior carotid triangle is only skin, superficial fascia which usually are thin although there may be an appreciable amount of subcutaneous fat. Within the superficial fascia is an exceedingly thin (paper-thin) muscle, platysma muscle, which begins in the tela subcutaneous over the upper part of the thorax, passes over the clavicle (collar bone), and runs upward and somewhat medially in the neck and across the mandible to blend with superficially located facial muscles. The platysma muscle has no very important action, but will wrinkle transversely the skin of the neck and help to open the mouth. 'This muscle does not protect the underlying vital structures.

Consequently, the amount of pressure directed to the superior carotid trianile needs to be no more than 300 mm Hg to cause unconsciousness in an adult. A female can, if the choke is properly performed, without great strength "choke out" a male twice her size.

The state of unconsciousness, according to the investigators of the Society for Scientific Study in Judo, Kodokan, is caused by a temporary hypoxic condition of the cerebral cortex. In judo, the player holds the opponent's neck by his hands (forearm) or judogi, the bloodflow of the common carotid artery is obstructed, but the vertebral artery is not obstructed. It has been confirmed that complete obstruction of blood flow to the brain or asphyxia by complete closure of the trachea will result in irreversible damage to the body which often results in death. While unconsciousness (ochi) caused by choking (shime) in judo is a temporary reaction which incapacitates the opponent for a short while, its execution is quite harniless.

Experiments with human subjects and animals show the following effects from "choking":

1. Unconsciousness is due to lack of oxygen and by the metabolites created in the brain as a result of:
* Acute cerebral anemia by pressure on:
1. common carotid artery
2. occipital artery
3. jugular vein
* Shock, reflex action initiated on the receptor organ in the carotid sinus.
2. The appearance of flushing of the face because of the disturbances in pressure in the carotid arteries and jugular veins.
* Decrease blood flow of the face shown by ultrasonic and laser-Doppler blood flow monitoring devices. The mean value is 89.4% with the lowest point in 6 seconds; after release return normal in 13.7 seconds.
* Decrease oxygen saturation in blood in the helix of the ear by using an ear oximeter. Down from 95 to 86% and reach a minimum of 82% in 2-4 seconds. After regaining consciousness return to 90 to 92%. Sixty percent oxygen saturation in the brain causes unconsciousness.
3. Tachycardia hypertension, and mydriasis (dilated pupils) are caused by stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (vagus nerve). The systemic pressure rises 30-40 mm of Hg. After release the blood pressure returns to normal in 3-4 minutes.
4. In some cases bradycardia and hypotension occur while other cases show tachycardia and hypertension depending on the hypersensitivity of the carotid sinus and where the pressure was applied.
5. Cardiac volume decreases but the volume recovers in 10 seconds after awakening.
6. The peripheral blood vessels are also involved: dilatation of muscle vessels and constriction of skin vessels. In shock, accompanied by unconsciousness, bradycardia and hypotension are observed with dilation of muscle vessels.
7. Choking acts as a stressor on the circulatory and hypophysio-adrenocortical system:
* Decreased blood volume and increased plasma proteins as a result of increased permeability of blood vessels. This is similar to unconscious state following electric shock.
* No change in the hematocrit value or albumin/globulin.
* A temporary increase in eosinophiles, then after awakening, there is a decrease in number after 4 hours.
* The 17-ketosteroids in the urine: 2 hours after recovery, the amount is very much increased then gradually decreased (lasts 6-8 hours).
8. The electroencephalogram (EEG): convulsions that appear in the unconscious stage are very similar to those of petit mal of epilepsy. No deleterious effects remained after the use of the choke hold. It is considerable less dangerous than a knockout in boxing.

Conclusion

The effects of carotid artery hold or shimewaza have been studied extensively. However, the use of this hold by law enforcement officers has resulted in deaths. The police department training manuals emphasize that control hold should be used only when necessary to stop a suspect's resistance and not necessarily to cause unconsciousness.

The enforcement officers, although trained, have great difficulty in subduing violent and uncooperative suspects. Some suspects are under the influence of drugs: Case 3, acute heroin-morphine intoxication; Case 4, phencyclidine (PCP); and Case 9, acute ethanol and cocaine intoxication. These suspects may have had greater tolerance for pain, thus making it more difficult to restrain them and to recognize whether the state of unconsciousness is due to drugs rather than to the restraining holds. In other words, these suspects were not cooperative.

In judo, the participants are taught to "choke" properly and in turn have been "choked" and have the ability to realize its effects before unconsciousness ensues. The officials, referee, judges, and coaches can recognize the player when he is "choked out" (becomes unconscious). If enforcement officers are to use the choke holds to subdue violent suspects as a last resort, they should be properly trained and supervised by trained certified judo instructors. Then possibly there will be less misuse or abuse of the techniques of choking which, when used improperly, result in fatalities.

The number of fatalities resulting from the use of choke holds will decrease if the following procedures are followed:

1. Choke holds to be taught by trained and certified instructors:
* to be familiar with the anatomical structures of the neck and where the pressure is to be applied (carotid triangle)
* to know the physiology of choking, that only a small amount of pressure is needed to cause unconsciousness
* to recognize immediately the state of unconsciousness and to release the pressure immediately.
* to learn proper resuscitation methods if unconsciousness is prolonged
* to prevent aspiration of vomitus and not to place the restrained suspect face down. Keep the suspect under constant observation.
2. To revise the police training manuals to emphasize the above procedures. These are the procedures and principles taught by judo instructors which have prevented deaths caused by shime-waza in the sport of judo for over 100 years.

There was another article I read which specified the EEG experiments they did (basically a judoka master choked out a load of judoka while connected to EEG machines: while going unconcious irregular readings where recorded, but they returned to normal in the space of 10 to 15 seconds, even one guy who was choked out 4 or 5 times in a row). Unfortunately I cant remember where I read it, so I cant link to it here

Dragan

jim o doom wrote: »

The points you make are very good; I suspect its different with Dragan or anyone who has to deal with violence on a regular basis

It's been a while since i did a door ( maybe a year ) and to be honest anything i did up in Dublin was pretty soft. Limerick was where i cut my teeth so you quickly get used to people implying a possibility of violence. 99% of the time it never happens and a quick witty word will restore the balance of things as the relationship changes and suddenly they just see you as a guy going a job, rather than a "bouncer".

For me anyways, i always found the best way to deal with incidents on a door was to simply restrain. People react badly when it comes to blows ( from an onlooker perspective ) and when you can very easily hold someone it seems to set the tone for calming things down very quickly.

I always hated having to use strikes on a door and would only ever do this when the situation provided no other avenue. That was about twice in 9 years thankfully.

paddyc

Quick example of what I mean. Some bloke followed me into the jacks in Citibar last week because I refused to shake his hand or tell him where I was from or something. He tried to start on me while I was having a slash, so I just turned around and shook his hand. Joke was on him I hadn't had time to wash. Of course I could have fought him. He was píssed and I had a couple of drinks too so who knows what would have happened? Who cares? All I know is it's not worth my while to do it. Giving him a clatter would have given me great pleasure though!

for the love of God i only wanted a handshake barry....




some times when i go out to DL i meet this washed up old BJJ lad and i wanna smack him in the face... does that count as violence?

mark.leonard

paddyc wrote: »

for the love of God i only wanted a handshake barry....




some times when i go out to DL i meet this washed up old BJJ lad and i wanna smack him in the face... does that count as violence?

LMAO

Roper

paddyc wrote: »

for the love of God i only wanted a handshake barry....




some times when i go out to DL i meet this washed up old BJJ lad and i wanna smack him in the face... does that count as violence?

I'd just love to know why you hate that guy so much. As for our handshake, enjoy your herpes.

cowzerp

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Thing is, if it happened now, though my technique would be good and I would be confident enough to take him down and control him, I still don't think I have the aggression in me to do damage, despite all my training. I'd be more concerned with holding him down until others came along to split it up.
I'm not sure if that's a weakness or a strength to be honest, and as confident as I am when training, I can't seem to translate that confidence to everyday life. Don't get me wrong, I don't like or want violence, but I am still very easily intimidated.

If someone attacks you with intent on hurting you, dont just hold them, you might get attacked by others or he might get free and hurt you again, if grappling is your skill take him down and either pound him or put him to sleep land!

either way, let him know that its not wise to attack you, these people love soft touches and others will attack you again if the worst they can expect to be punished for doing it is a nice man hug.

mirwillbeback

Roper wrote: »

I'd just love to know why you hate that guy so much. As for our handshake, enjoy your herpes.

it's cos he followed me to the jacks once too, but it wasn't a handshake he held his hand out for :eek:

t-ha

jim o doom wrote: »

Nope, first initial is P - can't remember second, he won the over 50's competition in Eskrima when he went abroad this year and writes some bits and pieces for the Irish martial arts mag (if thats the name of the mag im not too sure) also, possibly one of the angriest dudes I've ever met! but sound as well, as long as ur willing to train hard

Yeah I've seen him putting on nifty wrist & arm locks once or twice on those poor drunken bastards. The funniest is when it's a big guy who doesn't understand why he's not winning...

Dave Joyce

With respect to all concerned and with a fair amount of door work/security experience, I don't agree whatsoever that door work has a connection with "real life". Normally on the door, there is more than one person, you have an immediate out (most of the time) i.e. lock the scumbag outside and you can get the Guards to respond faster than normal Joe.

I still don't think I have the aggression in me to do damage,

They are some normal thoughts/emotions that people have and I think this is where Combatitives/RBSD etc deal with it best compared to a lot of MA. The intent side of things needs discussing/understanding. One thing I found very good was a point Geoff Thompson brought up in an article or in one of his books. He said if possible consequences of your actions cause you to hesitate, then the situation does not warrant such extreme actions and is "probably" not as serious as you first thought.

paddyc

roper


unfortunately I go way back with Mir.... and its pains me to say i actually like the lad... and even sometimes meet up with him for a beer or a coffee.... just sometimes tho....



paddy

Khannie

Dave Joyce wrote: »

One thing I found very good was a point Geoff Thompson brought up in an article or in one of his books. He said if possible consequences of your actions cause you to hesitate, then the situation does not warrant such extreme actions and is "probably" not as serious as you first thought.

That's really clever.

In answer to the OP: Haven't been in a fight (outside the ring) since I started doing MT thankfully.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dave Joyce wrote: »

With respect to all concerned and with a fair amount of door work/security experience, I don't agree whatsoever that door work has a connection with "real life". Normally on the door, there is more than one person, you have an immediate out (most of the time) i.e. lock the scumbag outside and you can get the Guards to respond faster than normal Joe.

Door work is still 'real life', esp. for those lads who are doing it full time.

OP, yes I've used some things on doorwork. Mostly its the rear naked choke, infact its the first thing I fight for.

Its fast, very effective and looks a lot less violent to other punters than beating the sh*t out of someone.

Other than that, I've used foot sweeps and hip throws to take someone down, and like Dragan - I'm a big lad & very strong, this counts for a lot when combined with some skills.

Dragan

Dave Joyce wrote: »

With respect to all concerned and with a fair amount of door work/security experience, I don't agree whatsoever that door work has a connection with "real life". Normally on the door, there is more than one person, you have an immediate out (most of the time) i.e. lock the scumbag outside and you can get the Guards to respond faster than normal Joe.

I don't really agree with that. In much the same way as Roper considers his training and fighting to be "real life", people on doors who use it as the main form of income and maybe on a pub/club door up to five or even 7 nights a week ( my record is 63 nights on the trot ) then this aspect becomes very "real".

It's a situation you put yourself in and you can either accept it as part of your life and accept the risks and possible damages that come with it or you can tell yourself it is only a small aspect of your life.

Right now i do a 9 to 5. Nice comfy office number. My training ( when it exists ) is done purely for myself, no one else. It has positive health and mental benefits, keeps me out of the pub and i genuinely enjoy it. If i were to go back on doors i wouldn't train any differently, but simply because my physical ability would play a bigger part in my daily life it would subconciously become a priority in my mind.

If i'm racking up the hours doing a job then i definitely consider that to be "real life".

In this same manner, we could dismiss the efforts of cops, soldiers, policemen, firemen ( i know plenty of firemen/women who have turned to MA recently as their reception in certain area's grows more and more cold ) etc as not being "real life", given that other factors would be at play such as training,medical training, back up etc.

Where do we draw the line?

Or is this all getting a little metaphysical?

Nothingcompares

For me I don't beleive Martial arts has an application to "real life" fighting for me. Basically, if I'm ever in a fight outside of training it's because I'm very drunk. And it's impossible to fight intelligently while smashed off your face.

mastersofdeath

Door work is hardly reality,as its normaly against people half pist.Its not like your dealing with a combat athlete,being asked to leave the pub.Its normaly dicks,who get brave after a beer or two.The amount of so called hard mens names than have been bulit on,haven 100's of fights on the door.When in reality its been against poor wee feckers,who are normaly too pist to stand on there own two feet.

Not sayen thats 100% of all of time,there are times...we a real nut job,comes on the scene but in general its basicly sober guys bullyen the **** out of piss heads or stoners.

Dragan

mastersofdeath wrote: »

Door work is hardly reality,as its normaly against people half pist.Its not like your dealing with a combat athlete,being asked to leave the pub.Its normaly dicks,who get brave after a beer or two.The amount of so called hard mens names than have been bulit on,haven 100's of fights on the door.When in reality its been against poor wee feckers,who are normaly too pist to stand on there own two feet.

Not sayen thats 100% of all of time,there are times...we a real nut job,comes on the scene but in general its basicly sober guys bullyen the **** out of piss heads or stoners.

And when in real life are you dealing with a combat athlete?:)

Once again, not meaning to get metaphysical but i think people are getting WAY too hung up on the whole, what is an isn't real life!

Also, the numbers tend to show that most violent occurances involve one or both parties being intoxicated to a degree on something.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Right, just my luck. I spend all year working out what a 'tracker mortage' is and Dragan goes and posts 'metaphysical'' twice...

WTF is a ''mataphysical''?.

HammerHeadGym

Roper wrote: »

...enjoy your herpes.

Assuming you always stick your hand in your mouth or onto your penis, immediatly after shaking hands with someone.

Roper

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

Assuming you always stick your hand in your mouth or onto your penis, immediatly after shaking hands with someone.

You wouldn't have to say that if you knew Paddy. He likes to taste who he talks to.

mirwillbeback

Roper wrote: »

You wouldn't have to say that if you knew Paddy. He likes to taste who he talks to.

SorGan

Roper wrote: »

You wouldn't have to say that if you knew Paddy. He likes to taste who he talks to.

lol:D