video

Whispered

Hi there, I would be interested to know what people think about this video and what this woman is saying?

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=

Personally I think she is talking a lot of sense.

biko

The video is of Arab American Psychologist Wafa Sultan from 2006

Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries. She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAXoDHy3_Ek

Whispered

biko wrote: »

Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries. She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

Do you have an opinion on it?

CPT. SURF

C'mon Helena, you know you are not going to get anywhere. I wish you the best of luck though.

Whispered

I knew this was going to be looked at like I am trying to get at people, when really I'm not. This is why I hesitated in asking, but if people want to learn, all they can do is ask. The fact is, a lot of what she says is the general opinion from a lot of non-muslims so I'm genuinely interested in what relevant people have to say on this, and by relevant I mean people who are not anti-Islam. One of the nicest people I know is Islamic and he has no problem in discussing his faith in an open and frank manner, perhaps he's one of a few?

This woman makes some good points, these points can be made about most religions and cultures. I just want to see how people percieve what this woman says. Can you see any truth in it, do you think it's all **** that she's talking? What is the general opinion on this?

wes

Its an old video. She makes some valid points here and there, but let look at what she said here via Wikipedia:

"I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself...Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem....(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed."[10]

I know Wikipedia isn't the most trustworthy source. so if the quote is fake, I am open to correction.

Lets be honest here, how exactly do you expect Muslims to react to a person who wants to crush them? Its hardly going to be positive and quite frankly any kind of criticism is going to fall on deaf ears, when your start talking about crushing people. Sorry, this thread isn't going to end well, considering the type of stuff that Sultan has come out with, she has imho shot herself in the foot with that comment and a lot of people will ignore her.

Really, the reaction to Wafa isn't going to be positive considering what she has said about crushing Muslims and what not. Perhaps you should find a video, where the person hasn't threatened to crush the people (to be fair this was said elsewhere) your attempting to converse with. Things will go down a bit better.

Dades

wes wrote: »

Really, the reaction to Wafa isn't going to be positive considering what she has said about crushing Muslims and what not. Perhaps you should find a video, where the person hasn't threatened to crush the people (to be fair this was said elsewhere) your attempting to converse with. Things will go down a bit better.

This is the video of the speech where that quote was taken from. The relevant part is circa 8m50s in. The word "crushed" seems completely out of context with the rest of her words, and she doesn't elaborate.

One stray word picked up from a myriad of heartfelt speeches doesn't justify blanking her completely, imo, unless one is looking for an excuse to discredit her. She has a lot to say, so it would still be good to hear what people think of the issues she raises which are pertinent regardless.

wes

Dades wrote: »

This is the video of the speech where that quote was taken from. The relevant part is circa 8m50s in. The word "crushed" seems completely out of context with the rest of her words, and she doesn't elaborate.

Why did she say it at all? Seems like a very odd thing to say. Really how else do you expect people to react?

Dades wrote: »

One stray word picked up from a myriad of heartfelt speeches doesn't justify blanking her completely, imo, unless one is looking for an excuse to discredit her. She has a lot to say, so it would still be good to hear what people think of the issues she raises which are pertinent regardless.

Has she retracted that statement? I haven't heard of any such retraction, explantion or anything else. So I think it perfectly valid to criticise her, based on it. Honestly, when you have someone saying something like that about Muslims, her other comments are probably not going to go down well and this is her own fault imho. She basically destroys any chance of any Muslim listening to the valid criticisms she does have. She has wrecked her own credibility among the group, she claims to be trying to talk too. Stuff like that isn't going to go down well and quite frankly won't be ignored. There is also, the fact that some of the stuff she has said about her own back story, has been contradicted by official sources:

From InFocus News .net:

As to the claim that her professor (thought to be Yusef Al-Yusef) was gunned down before her eyes in a faculty classroom at the University of Aleppo, Halabi said the incident never took place. "There was a professor who was killed around 1979, that is true, but it was off-campus and Sultan was not even around when it happened," he added.

InFocus contacted the University of Aleppo and spoke to Dr. Riyad Asfari, Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, who confirmed Halabi’s account. "Yes, the assassination took place off-campus," he said. Dr. Asfari was keen to add that no one had ever been killed in a classroom anytime or anywhere at the university.

Syrian expatriate Ghada Moezzin, who attended the University of Aleppo in 1979 as a sophomore, told InFocus that she never heard of the assassination. "We would’ve known about the killing if it had happened," she said. "It would have been big news on campus and I do not recall ever hearing about it." Moezzin, who lives in Glendora, Calif., added that government security was always present around the university given the political climate in Syria at the time.

What are perceived as inconsistencies and half-truths like these convince Sultan’s critics that the motive behind her invectives against Islam and Muslims is other than her alleged desire for reform.

There is more stuff in that article. So her own story, seems to be a half truth. While she does have valid criticism, she destroys her own credibility due to her own comments and the various half truths. So she does a great job discrediting herself.

I freely admit she makes some valid criticisms, but she also talks quite a bit of nonsense as well and has no trouble telling half truths, when it suits her. So I think the truth of her claims are perfectedly valid discussion, as well as her other comments. I personally can't take her "heartfelt" speeches as you call them at face value, and this is due to the half truths she tells and her bizare comment about crushing Muslims. Again, its bizare that people seems to think that something like that can be so easily ignored.

Dades

wes wrote: »

Why did she say it at all? Seems like a very odd thing to say.

Well that was my point! It seemed out of character, and out of context. Perhaps enough so to not be taken as literally as it sounded.

InFocus News wrote:

What are perceived as inconsistencies and half-truths like these convince Sultan’s critics that the motive behind her invectives against Islam and Muslims is other than her alleged desire for reform.

The pro-Israeli or financial gain angle is interesting, though I'm not sure I buy into it. Somewhat too conspiracy theory for me.

Whispered

wes wrote: »

Has she retracted that statement? I haven't heard of any such retraction, explantion or anything else. So I think it perfectly valid to criticise her, based on it. Honestly, when you have someone saying something like that about Muslims, her other comments are probably not going to go down well and this is her own fault imho. She basically destroys any chance of any Muslim listening to the valid criticisms she does have. She has wrecked her own credibility among the group, she claims to be trying to talk too. Stuff like that isn't going to go down well and quite frankly won't be ignored. There is also, the fact that some of the stuff she has said about her own back story, has been contradicted by official sources:



There is more stuff in that article. So her own story, seems to be a half truth. While she does have valid criticism, she destroys her own credibility due to her own comments and the various half truths. So she does a great job discrediting herself.

I freely admit she makes some valid criticisms, but she also talks quite a bit of nonsense as well and has no trouble telling half truths, when it suits her. So I think the truth of her claims are perfectedly valid discussion, as well as her other comments. I personally can't take her "heartfelt" speeches as you call them at face value, and this is due to the half truths she tells and her bizare comment about crushing Muslims. Again, its bizare that people seems to think that something like that can be so easily ignored.

I would be interested in when her comment about crushing muslims (and I can appreciate why that would seem an excuse to not listen to anything else she says) was made before or after that video. If it was after that video, why then, did the cleric refuse to speak with her, calling her a hethan?

Her points about the Jews can be looked at both ways, as Biko says, you can look at it as her "unfavourably comparing Muslims to Jews" or else you can look at it in the way I did, she pointed out that one of the most abused (for want of a better word) peoples of our era, picked themselves up and gained respect from everyone. The fact they had to do this in the first place is disgraceful, but the way they did it, is admirable.

Disregarding her comment about "crushing", what are your opinions on what she says in the video?

wes

helena.ryan wrote: »

I would be interested in when her comment about crushing muslims (and I can appreciate why that would seem an excuse to not listen to anything else she says) was made before or after that video. If it was after that video, why then, did the cleric refuse to speak with her, calling her a hethan?

If I remember the 2nd video posted by Dades comes after.

I couldn't view the video you linked (it asked me to download something that won't play right for me), but I could see the video Biko linked (i assume there the one and the same), I have never seen the video, just the transcript from elsewhere. The Memri video is not trust worthy, as Memri have been know to edit and mistranslate some of there video's, you can find more info here:

From Sourcewatch.org:

Wafa Sultan

Los Angeles based Syrian/American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan appeared on an al-Jazeera television show opposite Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouly, a lecturer at Cairo's Al-Azhar University. Memri offered a heavily edited version of the show, and mistranslated several of the exchanges, making it appear that al-Khouly had issued a death fatwa against Sultan. Wafa Sultan became known as someone who had her life threatened because of her "Clash of Civilizations" point of view.

It turns out that Sultan had appeared on a daytime al Jazeera show, roughly equivalent to Jerry Springer, that Western Educated Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouly had not issued a fatwa, and as he is not a recognized Mufti, had he issued a fatwa, it would not be considered in any way, authoritarian.

A secularist blog covering topics broadly related to MENA, named Aqoul, took a tape of the whole show, and translated it, making it available in a PDF file: Transcript Translation: al-Jazeera - The Opposite Direction (26/02/2006). Posts on Aqoul, as well as one on the Winds of Change blog offer a great deal of insight into the distortions:

So the guy in that video, isn't even a Cleric. Personally, I wouldn't trust anything from Memri, as they pull this stuff from time to tome.

helena.ryan wrote: »

Her points about the Jews can be looked at both ways, as Biko says, you can look at it as her "unfavourably comparing Muslims to Jews" or else you can look at it in the way I did, she pointed out that one of the most abused (for want of a better word) peoples of our era, picked themselves up and gained respect from everyone. The fact they had to do this in the first place is disgraceful, but the way they did it, is admirable.

My problem with that is that the state of Israel (which is what she is talking about, considering the context of this is the ME), was built at the expense of the Palestinians. I would also wager, that a lot of Muslims would have issue with that. I can't see anything to do with Israel as admirable, when it is the result of driving people from there homes and continued oppression, it would be like asking a African to find something admirable about the apartheid regime of South Africa. Now I mention Israel as she talks about the dispora regrouping.

She ignores the various terror groups that created Israel and the inhumanity shown the Palestinians since the states creation. Its completely bizare to pretend these things don't exist and that this isn't happening to this day. She just ignore it, as it doesn't suit her purposes.

I know the Jews suffered greatly, perhaps more than any other group and I understand that this abuse led some Jews to the create the Zionist movement (who do no represent all Jews, just to make that clear, my issue is with Zionism and not with the Jews or there relgion, which is similar to my own), but Zionism naturally enough led to the oppression of the Palestinians, so to ignore that like she does, will automatically lose her credibility not just in the eyes of Muslims, but even more secular Arabs as well.

Now of course, getting away from Israel, what Jewish people have achieved is admirable of course and is see no reasons, why Muslims should not respect this. I can certainly concede, that achievement from Muslim countries have not been up to snuff for a while.

helena.ryan wrote: »

Disregarding her comment about "crushing", what are your opinions on what she says in the video?

Well, her whole story seems to be well false, so I really find it hard to take anything she says seriously, as the defining moment she talks about seems to have not happened. Honestly, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Even with that she brings up valid points about religous extremism and the about the ME in genera and how they really need to sort themselves out, I just think that her story harms her message due to the half truths she tells. Still she goes way over board in a lot of ways and again hurts her message.

**EDIT**
Also, she seems to ignore Arab nationalism almost completely. She concentrates on Islam, and basically blames all the problems in the ME on it, but if you look at the Ba'ath (secular Arab nationalist) party in her native Syria, some of the stuff that the party did there was far worse than the stuff the Muslim Brotherhood ever did in that country, had even done there and lets not forget Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party. Its odd that she just leaves these things out. There just as important to the region as Islam.

wes

Dades wrote: »

Well that was my point! It seemed out of character, and out of context. Perhaps enough so to not be taken as literally as it sounded.

I don't see how else it can be taken and I find it odd that she hasn't clarified the point since then. I have taken a look and kind find anyting such thing. I would think she would have clarified something like that. Normally, I would give the benefit of the doubt, but the people she was addressing at the time, makes me think otherwise.

Dades wrote: »

The pro-Israeli or financial gain angle is interesting, though I'm not sure I buy into it. Somewhat too conspiracy theory for me.

I don't really buy that angle either. I think its a bit much, but the bit about her story not having happened is what concerns me, as she bases a lot of what she says on this one event, that doesn't seem to have happened, which make everything she says suspect.

**EDIT**
Now just to make it clear, my problems with Wafa Sultan, isn't that she is criticising Islam, but that she seems to be playing fast and loose with the truth.

Personally, I always found Salman Rushdie was far better at balancing his criticism, while I don't agree with everything he says, he doesn't seem to think Islam is the greatest evil in the world, which is the impression I get from the like of Wafa Sultan. He will certainly attack what needs to be attacked, but he goes after everyone, not just the Islamic extremists, but the Hindu extremists, Israel, and the stuff the US pulls. Now someone like Mr. Rushdie has my respect, as he truthful and balanced in his criticisms.

ironingbored

helena.ryan wrote: »

Hi there, I would be interested to know what people think about this video and what this woman is saying?

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=

Personally I think she is talking a lot of sense.

One word: Excellent

Agathon

ironingbored wrote: »

One word: Excellent

you would say that, wouldn't you!?!
She's asking what do Muslims think...

Agathon

helena.ryan wrote: »

Do you have an opinion on it?

I think she's a Jew! She says Jews don't kill innocents ... There's just a terrorist Jewish State that's killing innocent kids, women and driving millions of families out of their home land; wanting to destroy temples (al-aqsa, nativity church, etc.); no regard for the international communities pleas for the past two decades; Is Sharon not Jewish? Was the destruction of Beirut a couple of years ago not orchestrated by Jews?

I think she's bias, that's what I think. And Muslims have contributed a lot to science if she looks in the history books. She's looking at suicide bombings and saying this is Islam. Of course every atheist, Jew & Christian is going to find her views excellent!

wes

Agathon wrote: »

I think she's a Jew! She says Jews don't kill innocents ... There's just a terrorist Jewish State that's killing innocent kids, women and driving millions of families out of their home land; wanting to destroy temples (al-aqsa, nativity church, etc.); no regard for the international communities pleas for the past two decades; Is Sharon not Jewish? Was the destruction of Beirut a couple of years ago not orchestrated by Jews?

Sorry, thats nonsense.

She firstly states she is a Atheist, but her race or creed doesn't matter.

Also, its unfair and wrong to blame all Jews, for the crimes of Zionists, just like it would be unfair to blame all Muslims for stuff Al Qaeda do. Not all Jews agree with the actions of Zionists, just like not all Muslims, agree with the actions of Al Qaeda.

You really have to realize, that Zionism is a political ideology and Zionist, can be of any race or religion, or of no religion. Theres even Muslim Zionists and Christian Zionists.

Agathon

You really have to realize, that Zionism is a political ideology and Zionist, can be of any race or religion, or of no religion...

True, I was been sarcastic about saying she's a Jew; you're right Wes, we shouldn't blame all Jews for the crimes for some extremists. But why is do people think it's alright for her to blame all Muslims for the crimes of some extremists. Just because she's on Al-Jazeera, it doesn't mean she can waffle her biased views (my nonsense in the previous post is exactly like her nonsense in the five minute video). I'm glad I've made by point to some of you about this video..

wes

Agathon wrote: »

True, I was been sarcastic about saying she's a Jew; you're right Wes, we shouldn't blame all Jews for the crimes for some extremists. But why is do people think it's alright for her to blame all Muslims for the crimes of some extremists. Just because she's on Al-Jazeera, it doesn't mean she can waffle her biased views (my nonsense in the previous post is exactly like her nonsense in the five minute video). I'm glad I've made by point to some of you about this video..

Sorry, sarcasm is very difficult to see, when we are just dealing with text.