Taking on the muslims

Charlie3dan

Found this posted in After Hours.

Fair play to this lass:

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=

I have a feeling she's in a lot of trouble.

aidan24326

your link doesn't work.

Any chance of a synopsis?

Mena

aidan24326 wrote: »

your link doesn't work.

Any chance of a synopsis?

Lady of Arabian Descent going on a (very accurate) tirade against the Middle East/Islam on national TV (in the Middle East). I found it pretty good but I do fear for her safety to say the least.

Charlie3dan

What mena said

For some reason it works in this post but not in mine:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055388872

Dades

Fixed the link in the OP.
Not sure of the relevance to A&A though... grumble grumble...

edit: Ah, now I see she's an unbeliever!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

al jazeera would be international tv, not national... can't see her being allowed get away with that on many national television networks over there.

Mena

Mordeth wrote: »

al jazeera would be international tv, not national... can't see her being allowed get away with that on many national television networks over there.

Didn't realise it was al Jazeera. I stand corrected.

Vokes

Link still not working for me.

?


EDIT: Not working in firefox but working with VLC player for me.

Hivemind187

It's refreshing to hear such enlightened and foreward thinking in the Arabic tongue (no, this isnt a racist point its just usually we only hear threats from beardy cave dwellers).

dades: Surely it relates to A&A because of the rubbishing of superstition and pointing out how it is the medieval mentality of religion that is causing a lot of people to get iced. She refers to herself as not being of any particular religion but a secular human beiing, one who does not believe herself but respects the right to believe.

Edit: You edited before I finished writing Dades

Mena

Hivemind187 wrote: »

It's refreshing to hear such enlightened and foreward thinking in the Arabic tongue (no, this isnt a racist point its just usually we only hear threats from beardy cave dwellers).

dades: Surely it relates to A&A because of the rubbishing of superstition and pointing out how it is the medieval mentality of religion that is causing a lot of people to get iced. She refers to herself as not being of any particular religion but a secular human beiing, one who does not believe herself but respects the right to believe.

Edit: You edited before I finished writing Dades

Dades busted jumping to conclusions before watching all the source material!

Burn him... etc.

djpbarry

Hivemind187 wrote: »

It's refreshing to hear such enlightened and foreward thinking in the Arabic tongue...

I suggest you watch Al Jazeera more often.

Hivemind187

djpbarry wrote: »

I suggest you watch Al Jazeera more often.

I did say "usually".

And the cleric about half way through doesnt do much to help matters by refusing to discuss anything with a "heretic".

Charlie3dan

Hivemind187 wrote: »

And the cleric about half way through doesnt do much to help matters by refusing to discuss anything with a "heretic".

I was thinking the video was quite boring till he piped in with non sensical ramblings, made what she was saying all the more relevant.

aidan24326

She's quite right in what she's saying and it's refreshing to see someone like her be brave enough to come out and say those things on an arabic tv channel.

The cleric guy just looked bemused and had no idea how to counter her points. Obviously not used to having someone confront him with the cold hard truth. Hence the reason I don't usually bother posting in the islam forum as you're not really allowed to argue or debate much anyway, it's all just a nice cosy little group hug. In my experience I've met muslims who are so completely brainwashed they cannot and will not even entertain the possibilty that they might be wrong. They're just right and that's the end of it. Case closed.

ChocolateSauce

It is more than refreshing to me, I find it heroic. She is a champion and a paragon of justice.

Dades

Hivemind187 wrote:

Edit: You edited before I finished writing Dades

Mena wrote: »

Dades busted jumping to conclusions before watching all the source material!

I thought it was just some disgruntled Muslim woman!

Mena wrote: »

Burn him... etc.

Not the holy water... nooooo...

Malari

aidan24326 wrote: »

She's quite right in what she's saying and it's refreshing to see someone like her be brave enough to come out and say those things on an arabic tv channel.

The cleric guy just looked bemused and had no idea how to counter her points. Obviously not used to having someone confront him with the cold hard truth. Hence the reason I don't usually bother posting in the islam forum as you're not really allowed to argue or debate much anyway, it's all just a nice cosy little group hug. In my experience I've met muslims who are so completely brainwashed they cannot and will not even entertain the possibilty that they might be wrong. They're just right and that's the end of it. Case closed.

Yes, I just realised this, having posted for the first time there today only to receive an infraction! AND I read the charter...

Anyway, I think the only way muslims are going to change is if it looks like it's coming from inside.

andrewh5

aidan24326 wrote: »

She's quite right in what she's saying and it's refreshing to see someone like her be brave enough to come out and say those things on an arabic tv channel.

The cleric guy just looked bemused and had no idea how to counter her points. Obviously not used to having someone confront him with the cold hard truth. Hence the reason I don't usually bother posting in the islam forum as you're not really allowed to argue or debate much anyway, it's all just a nice cosy little group hug. In my experience I've met muslims who are so completely brainwashed they cannot and will not even entertain the possibilty that they might be wrong. They're just right and that's the end of it. Case closed.

Sadly there are Christians like it as well.

Whispered

Would it be trolling to post this in the Muslim forum to see what people think?

seamus

helena.ryan wrote: »

Would it be trolling to post this in the Muslim forum to see what people think?

I'm not sure they'll even listen. They have the most bombproof defence: "She's a women, what does she know?"

Afaik, that video has been around for a number of years, came out not long after the WTC attacks.

Whispered

Well they wont say "what does she know she's a woman" on a public forum will they? I doubt people actually think like that? (I've never been in there) Even if it is a few years old, it would be interesting to see what people think. Although I've never been in the forum before, so maybe someone who pops in every now and then might be better recieved?

andrewh5

helena.ryan wrote: »

Well they wont say "what does she know she's a woman" on a public forum will they? I doubt people actually think like that? (I've never been in there) Even if it is a few years old, it would be interesting to see what people think. Although I've never been in the forum before, so maybe someone who pops in every now and then might be better recieved?

Don't kid yourself. Islam is a misogynistic religion no matter what male muslims like to say to the contrary. There are plenty of male muslims out there who will say just that.

Dades

I wouldn't see it as trolling, tbh. And I would like to hear what the 'moderates' think of it.

You may find it's been posted there before, too.

Whispered

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=

Did it work here?

Oh it did, back in a few minutes.

EDIT: Oh I'm gonna be in trouble - Dades, I'm blaming you. I would have expected more from a mod. :P

Dades

What are you smoking?! I am above reproach.

[HTML]http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=[/HTML]Cut and paste this into the "Open URL" option of Windows Media Player if all else fails.

aidan24326

andrewh5 wrote: »

Sadly there are Christians like it as well.

No doubt there are, just in my own experience I've found christians by and large are more willing to discuss and debate their religion, I've found alot of muslims I've known or met to be very closed-minded. A generalisation of course, but one that isn't entirely unfair imo.

helena.ryan wrote: »

Well they wont say "what does she know she's a woman" on a public forum will they? I doubt people actually think like that?

I don't know about the islam forum on boards but I've certainly heard such comments in real life. It mightn't be said quite as bluntly as that but the meaning would be the same.

An Iraqi muslim guy I used to know fairly well would routinely make comments about the inferiority of women, or about the role of a woman in the world. He'd say it in a way that I could tell he didn't really mean any harm by it, he was actually quite a placid guy but that type of thinking is so ingrained in their culture that it was perfectly normal to him.

Whispered

aidan24326 wrote: »

No doubt there are, just in my own experience I've found christians by and large are more willing to discuss and debate their religion, I've found alot of muslims I've known or met to be very closed-minded. A generalisation of course, but one that isn't entirely unfair imo.

.

I have found this too, there seems to be a mindset of "them" and "us" and to ask questions automatically puts you in the wrong catagory.

aidan24326 wrote: »

An Iraqi muslim guy I used to know fairly well would routinely make comments about the inferiority of women, or about the role of a woman in the world. He'd say it in a way that I could tell he didn't really mean any harm by it, he was actually quite a placid guy but that type of thinking is so ingrained in their culture that it was perfectly normal to him.

I have an uncle who was Muslim, when he married my aunt he stopped practising as his family wanted nothing else to do with him. Their daughter, who grew up with no muslim influences from her father at all, is now married to a Muslim man, who, lets just say, is what we would imagine a typical muslim man to be like in how he treats her. I wonder in cases like that, is there a psychological reason a woman will marry a man like that when there is no sign of it in home life (IE. not the norm for her)

aidan24326

helena.ryan wrote: »

Their daughter, who grew up with no muslim influences from her father at all, is now married to a Muslim man, who, lets just say, is what we would imagine a typical muslim man to be like in how he treats her. I wonder in cases like that, is there a psychological reason a woman will marry a man like that when there is no sign of it in home life (IE. not the norm for her)

To be fair though there's women out there who just seem to be attracted to men like that for whatever reason, be they muslim or otherwise. Your cousin is possibly one of those people, so it's hard to blame it on islam if she wasn't brought up with that. I'd suspect her father may have had more of an insidious influence on her than you think though, or am I wrong to think that?

seamus

aidan24326 wrote: »

I'd suspect her father may have had more of an insidious influence on her than you think though

That would be my thinking too. Even though her father may have abandoned the muslim faith, he probably still retained a good deal of the mysognistic attitude and was quite patriarchal at home. And as we know, many women are attracted to men who are like their fathers.

Galvasean

aidan24326 wrote: »

Hence the reason I don't usually bother posting in the islam forum as you're not really allowed to argue or debate much anyway,

That's true. I've noticed anyone who questions anything Islam related matters overt here is branded a bigot and generally ignored.
Makes me appreciative of the Christianity forum, at least they like to engage in debate.

Whispered

aidan24326 wrote: »

To be fair though there's women out there who just seem to be attracted to men like that for whatever reason, be they muslim or otherwise.

No not at all, I didn't mean I was blaming Islam, I meant, there are reasons above religion that make people accept certain behaviour. That was actually my point, a lot of the time religion can be blamed for this type of thing, but really it's down to the person. She seemed to have a romantic view of being "owned" by a man, and sought this man out. Causing a whole load of trouble. The situation went well and above what I can discuss here, due to legal reasons. <-- Yep thats how serious this "ownership" thing got.

seamus wrote: »

That would be my thinking too. Even though her father may have abandoned the muslim faith, he probably still retained a good deal of the mysognistic attitude and was quite patriarchal at home. And as we know, many women are attracted to men who are like their fathers.

The man I'm talking about, as far as I know, is not at all mysognistic and has a very healthy and gentle respect for women. In saying that though, I rarely see them so this could just be my impression.

Galvasean wrote: »

That's true. I've noticed anyone who questions anything Islam related matters overt here is branded a bigot and generally ignored.
Makes me appreciative of the Christianity forum, at least they like to engage in debate.

In fairness, Wes just made a very good post about the video. Although besides that, nobody.

Soul Winner

Galvasean wrote: »

That's true. I've noticed anyone who questions anything Islam related matters overt here is branded a bigot and generally ignored.
Makes me appreciative of the Christianity forum, at least they like to engage in debate.

Yes debatin's what we do best Anyway re that woman. How dare she go on TV and... just kidding Fair play to her. More of the same please. I hate intolerance no matter what the source. Open dialogue and open mindedness on everything is what's needed in this world and from everybody. I’m all for her belief that everyone should be allowed to believe in whatever they want to believe in even if that belief is in nothing at all. She was wrong about that is only Muslims who burn Churches though; many Christians and Atheists have done plenty of that over the years as well. You only need look back to the North in the troubles and to the former Soviet Union to know that.

jackdaw

Mena wrote: »

Lady of Arabian Descent going on a (very accurate) tirade against the Middle East/Islam on national TV (in the Middle East). I found it pretty good but I do fear for her safety to say the least.

Yeah ... she hit the nail on the head really, brave woman ..

mewso

Impressive but I would like to see it tempered a bit with the fact that the Western world has to accept some blame for crushing a people enough to empower the extremists even more. And while no Jewish person has blown themselves up in a shop they have leaders more than capable to do it for them and have done so. Looked edited though. Might not be seeing the whole argument from either side. Still it is important to hear these kind of words coming from the Arab world.

kleefarr

I discovered her name is Wafa Sultan and she has made several other interviews, you can also find them on youtube..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB4pG3kHIY

robindch

musician wrote: »

no Jewish person has blown themselves up in a shop

It's not quite detonating an explosive vest, but the effects are much the same:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

Dave!

Ah that Wafa Sultan video has been around ages. She's great.

If I'm not mistaken (check wikipedia), when she was a kid, some Muslim fundamentalists came into her classroom and killed her teacher in front of the whole class for being a heretic or some sh*t like that.... I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

edit:

ah, she wasn't a kid:

Sultan stated that she was shocked into secularism by the 1979 atrocities committed by Islamic extremists of the Muslim Brotherhood against innocent Syrian people, including the machine-gun assassination of her professor, Yusef al Yusef,[5] an ophthalmologist renowned beyond Syria, in her classroom in front of her eyes at the University of Aleppo where she was a medical student. "They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan

OK-Cancel-Apply

Shame the video ended before their rebuttal. She spoke a lot of crap.

Neither "The Muslims" nor "The Jews" are responsible for any single atrocity. No more than "The Catholics" are responsible for any IRA bombing. She says the 'Jews' don't blow people up. If she's talking about the Zionist movement, she's right - they don't blow up churches. They only just destroy mosques (and people inside them), with F16's. They only drop millions of illegal cluster bombs on innocent civillians. But I guess many people see air strikes as 'legitimate' murder.

And which specific conflict is she speaking of anyway? I notice she speaks of 'the clash we are seeing around the world'. Which clash? Maybe she's talking about the handful of Islamist extremists of commit suicide bombings. Or maybe the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan? The U.S. sponsored Israeli oppression of the Palestinians? She should be more specific.

aidan24326

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Shame the video ended before their rebuttal. She spoke a lot of crap.

She spoke mostly sense, though I thought she was a bit kind on the jews in all honesty. The Israeli zionists have more than enough blood on their hands. I don't think the guy in the studio had a rebuttall, he just looked a bit bemused by her and resorted to calling her a heretic.

Neither "The Muslims" nor "The Jews" are responsible for any single atrocity. No more than "The Catholics" are responsible for any IRA bombing. She says the 'Jews' don't blow people up. If she's talking about the Zionist movement, she's right - they don't blow up churches. They only just destroy mosques (and people inside them), with F16's. They only drop millions of illegal cluster bombs on innocent civillians. But I guess many people see air strikes as 'legitimate' murder.

The Zionists believe the lands of Israel are their birthright, promised to them by god. This belief stems from religious indoctrination. The muslim who blows himself up in a marketplace because he thinks it will gain him favour in heaven has also been very heavily influenced by his religious upbringing. In that conflict you simply cannot ignore the religious angle to it. Northern Ireland was a bit different so it's not a fair comparison.

OK-Cancel-Apply

aidan24326 wrote: »

She spoke mostly sense, though I thought she was a bit kind on the jews in all honesty. The Israeli zionists have more than enough blood on their hands. I don't think the guy in the studio had a rebuttall, he just looked a bit bemused by her and resorted to calling her a heretic.

Heretic could be synonymous with 'atheist'. We don't know the language well enough to fully understand what he said. It could be all down to the translation. Perhaps an Arabic speaker could enlighten us.

The Zionists believe the lands of Israel are their birthright, promised to them by god. This belief stems from religious indoctrination. The muslim who blows himself up in a marketplace because he thinks it will gain him favour in heaven has also been very heavily influenced by his religious upbringing. In that conflict you simply cannot ignore the religious angle to it. Northern Ireland was a bit different so it's not a fair comparison.

Depends on the situation. If that marketplace is in Israel, there's a good chance that the guy's motives are those of 'resistance' to Israeli military and political oppression. He could just be an Arab. If he does it in the 'name of allah', it's only in the same way an Israeli pilot probably praises 'G-d' and kisses the star of David before dropping the bomb. The reality is, that it's not a clash of religions. If it were, Iran would be in chaos, as they have the largest Jewish population outside of Israel in the middle east. But Jews and Muslims live quite peacefully side by side there.

It is quite similar to Northern Ireland, but more like the South African apartheid TBH.

localhothead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAhBPCxxmDc

tech77

Dave! wrote: »

Ah that Wafa Sultan video has been around ages. She's great.

If I'm not mistaken (check wikipedia), when she was a kid, some Muslim fundamentalists came into her classroom and killed her teacher in front of the whole class for being a heretic or some sh*t like that.... I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

edit:

ah, she wasn't a kid:

Sultan stated that she was shocked into secularism by the 1979 atrocities committed by Islamic extremists of the Muslim Brotherhood against innocent Syrian people, including the machine-gun assassination of her professor, Yusef al Yusef,[5] an ophthalmologist renowned beyond Syria, in her classroom in front of her eyes at the University of Aleppo where she was a medical student. "They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan

Wow.
Cool woman.