A1 and A2 - Should we just have an A1?

decdec456

Let's face it all the other grades have three sub grades so why not the same for an A ot just give anybody who gets the A , 100 points!

Its ridiculous that people who are 5% or less off 90% don't get the other ten points because in the end it's down to opinion and age etc. of examiner and how its marked!

I realise it's a way to determine the best of the best and it's a fair system but surely losing 15% or less warrants a well earned perfect score of 100 points! A2 just seems so "What the bleep did I do to lose marks and not get 90%+"

I think its more frustrating to get an A2 than a B1 in a subject you feel you would top because its like with the B1 you can accept you weren't A standard but with the A2 your just a smidge off the mark

Rant over, converse people!!!

spurious

decdec456 wrote: »

in the end it's down to opinion and age etc. of examiner and how its marked!

What does that mean? Do you think examiners who are older use a different marking scheme?

Cokehead Mother

There has to be some limit. It just so happens that limit is 90.

I could go into the JC forum right now and use your exact argument to support 80% being an A. I mean, surely someone who just lost 20% of the marks deserves the top grade?

decdec456

spurious wrote: »

What does that mean? Do you think examiners who are older use a different marking scheme?

well not for technical subjects but for things like english or classics or history

and gender actually, Young Female Examiners WILL notice if handwriting is female and be more favourable! NOT saying it's everyone but we have proper examiners, old riddled coots and general incompetents looking for a bitta dosh!!!

But yes Maths Physics etc. Strict Marking scheme yada yada you're right

Cokehead Mother

decdec456 wrote: »

Young Female Examiners WILL notice if handwriting is female and be more favourable!

wtf

Stop making completely random and unjustified statements about examiners in certain demographics.

You're right! There should be an A1 (100 - 95), A2 (94 - 90), and A3 (89 - 85).

Really though I think that to get 90+% is an excellent result regardless, so I don't see the problem with having 10% leeway instead of 5%.

decdec456

Cokehead Mother wrote: »

There has to be some limit. It just so happens that limit is 90.

I could go into the JC forum right now and use your exact argument to support 80% being an A. I mean, surely someone who just lost 20% of the marks deserves the top grade?

Junior Certificate means nothing, its not going to be the basis of careers , its an important waste of time but nothing more

But in Leaving certificate there are brilliant people who underperform or mess up on the day and I KNOW that the system is fair and thats their problem but It's just frustrating when Mary 95 A's gets top marks and someone else doesn't even though they have true ability in a certain subject! Let's face it State Exams are all about structure , answering not about aptitude, Only Art truly merits ability. i'm not knocking the system merely the clamp down on people who have the talent and don't get to places when other's who just get there cos "They Can"

So yes I would like the A situation reviewed and I know its illogical to do so but its just the bare human nature within me!!!

People are lying if they don't feel a bit the same otherwise this board is full of grabby, all rounders here to preach about the system that will carry them to anywhere!

phew

decdec456

Cokehead Mother wrote: »

wtf

Stop making completely random and unjustified statements about examiners in certain demographics.

just saying there might be reasons why girls do better in some things lol
JOKING

spurious

decdec456 wrote: »

Young Female Examiners WILL notice if handwriting is female and be more favourable!

That's what we in the trade call nonsense.

spurious

OP - your original suggestion is a valid one, to divide the A grade like any other grade into three, but you're spouting all sorts of ludicrous stuff in your posts.

decdec456

okay i take back the stereotype bias jibe !!!

easy now!

jaffa20

I would rather see marks calculated to the nearest percentage as they are in university. I got 4 A2's in my leaving cert and was a bit angry tbh. I think if a mark is 89.5+ %, it should be an A1. The same should go for the other grades.

I got 69% overall in my university subject but was still awarded a 1.1.

decdec456

jaffa20 wrote: »

I would rather see marks calculated to the nearest percentage as they are in university. I got 4 A2's in my leaving cert and was a bit angry tbh. I think if a mark is 89.5+ %, it should be an A1. The same should go for the other grades.

I got 69% overall in my university subject but was still awarded a 1.1.

do they really not round it off jaffa in the leaving?????

HOW SHOCKING!!!!

that is well unfair!!!!

ironictoaster

If I got an A2 in any subject, regardless of level. I'd be delighted. But, there would be something in the back in my head saying, maybe you should have gotten an A1.

Anyways, I would be happy if there was just a standard A grade in LC though, It's understandable why there is an A1 and A2 grade.

Cokehead Mother

decdec456 wrote: »

do they really not round it off jaffa in the leaving?????

HOW SHOCKING!!!!

that is well unfair!!!!

Not really.

There has to be a point where an A2 becomes an A1. It's currently 90%, and I don't see the point in changing it to 89.5% so that people with 89.4% can be annoyed with themselves.

There has to be people who just barely miss out on it. No way around it.

PurpleFistMixer

How do you think that giving a load of people 10 more points is going to make the system in any way more fair? How can you say someone who only got 85% got a "perfect score"?
What about the people who got 84%? They get 85 points. If they'd gotten say, one more mark, they'd be getting 15 more points. How is that fair? It isn't. But they've done so well, haven't they? Sure, let's give them 100 points too. Oh, no... someone got 79%... If they got 1 more mark they might have an extra 20 points... Better give them 100 points too.

And on. And on.
You have to draw the lines somewhere. As Myth said, if there's any change to be made to how As are given out, it should be bringing in an A3. Of course, then people would just kill themselves more trying to get 95%+ for the A1.

I agree with you that these exams are only testing how good people are at doing an exam in a limited time on a particular day, but I cannot imagine how giving more people 100 points is going to make it any better.

Davidius

I think they should completely scrape the current "Here's your grade" system.

When you get your results you should be given very complex maths problems to work out your grades.

Except in English where they'll give a statement about a poet's feelings or some crazy crap like that and then tell you to write down your grade based on a personal repsponse to something or other. Basically you'll be able to choose your grade so there won't be an real point in sitting English.

And for History you'll be given a historical event. You must then find the year in which the event took place. Your grade is based on the last two digits of that year.

It wouldn't confused anybody or afraid of anything.

Aerb

spurious wrote: »

OP - your original suggestion is a valid one, to divide the A grade like any other grade into three, but you're spouting all sorts of ludicrous stuff in your posts.

I am going to take you to a fair, where we can eat ice cream cones and rediscover your inner-child.

On topic, there's going to be disappointment in any grade system. I think it's not significantly going to hamper people. And besides, it might encourage people to try harder. The Leaving Certificate is a competition. It might be a way to root out the perfectionists? It's dumb speculation from me. Or maybe the SEC have a knack for annoying people. idk

MathsManiac

Maybe this would be better:
NG: 0%
F: 1%
E: 2%
3%
C: 4%
B: 5%
A3: 6%
A2: 7%
A1: 8 - 100%

Then we could all be geniuses, do medicine, and set off fire alarms in the middle of the night.
:rolleyes:

pathway33

MathsManiac wrote: »

Maybe this would be better:
NG: 0%
F: 1%
E: 2%
3%
C: 4%
B: 5%
A3: 6%
A2: 7%
A1: 8 - 100%

Then we could all be geniuses, do medicine, and set off fire alarms in the middle of the night.
:rolleyes:

even on this grading system i think some of us would still struggle to get an A1 plus it would be so cruel because you would always miss out on a higher grade by just 1%

KnifeWRENCH

I got 3 A1's and 3 A2's, so if an A2 was 100 points, I would have got 600.:(
It is kinda frustrating missing out on the A1's and I honestly think I could have gotten an A1 in two of my three A2 subjects.

But the line does have to be drawn somewhere. To have a 15 point difference between an 84% grade and an 85% grade would be more unfair than the current 10 point difference between 89% and 90%.

On the other hand, introducing an A3 grade would make A1's much tougher to get, as instead of a 10 point margin (90-100%) you could only have a 5 point margin (95-100%)

So I think the current system is the best one, no matter how many times I kick myself for narrowly missing out on an A1 in three subjects.

implausible

decdec456 wrote: »

do they really not round it off jaffa in the leaving?????

HOW SHOCKING!!!!

that is well unfair!!!!

I hate to interrupt with a dose of reality, but I can tell you that no examiner would leave a student on 89.5% or 2 marks off an A1. It's cruel and would only lead to an advising examiner rechecking it. Enough of the conspiracy theories!

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

I hate to interrupt with a dose of reality, but I can tell you that no examiner would leave a student on 89.5% or 2 marks off an A1. It's cruel and would only lead to an advising examiner rechecking it. Enough of the conspiracy theories!

Of course students are left on 89.5%, no student is going to be given extra marks for free just to bring them up from an A2 to an A1... sure it does lead to rechecks, but not all students are upgraded, and those that are, are only upgaded with just cause.

rainbowtrout

creggy wrote: »

If I got an A2 in any subject, regardless of level. I'd be delighted. But, there would be something in the back in my head saying, maybe you should have gotten an A1.

Anyways, I would be happy if there was just a standard A grade in LC though, It's understandable why there is an A1 and A2 grade.

There would be less separation of points totals for students as a result with lots of 600s and less of a range between 540-600. Now a person on 540 is going to be just as capable of doing any course that a person on 600 can do but the CAO would be chaos, all the high points courses would be 600 on random selection. At least with a division of grades it makes i a bit easier. Up until 1991 might have the date wrong) LC grades were the same as JC grades, A, B, C, D......

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Of course students are left on 89.5%, no student is going to be given extra marks for free just to bring them up from an A2 to an A1... sure it does lead to rechecks, but not all students are upgraded, and those that are, are only upgaded with just cause.

They're not given marks 'for free' but if the script ends up at 358/400 (89.5%), you wouldn't leave it hanging. You go back and see if it deserves to be brought up to an A1 or if it's a more solid A2. The SEC are keen to cut down on rechecks, so we're told to give solid grades. Examiners are teachers at the end of the day and I would be furious if I saw 358/400 on any of my student's L.C. scripts.

K4t

deemark wrote: »

They're not given marks 'for free' but if the script ends up at 358/400 (89.5%), you wouldn't leave it hanging. You go back and see if it deserves to be brought up to an A1 or if it's a more solid A2. The SEC are keen to cut down on rechecks, so we're told to give solid grades. Examiners are teachers at the end of the day and I would be furious if I saw 358/400 on any of my student's L.C. scripts.

:rolleyes:

That is somewhat understandable in subjects like English and history where the examiner's opinion has a large impact on the final result but that is a ridiculous statement with regards to subjects like Accounting, Maths, Physics etc.

Your grade is your grade. If you get 358, then you get 358 and not 360. End of story.

Fad

Davidius wrote: »

I think they should completely scrape the current "Here's your grade" system.

When you get your results you should be given very complex maths problems to work out your grades.

Except in English where they'll give a statement about a poet's feelings or some crazy crap like that and then tell you to write down your grade based on a personal repsponse to something or other. Basically you'll be able to choose your grade so there won't be an real point in sitting English.

And for History you'll be given a historical event. You must then find the year in which the event took place. Your grade is based on the last two digits of that year.

It wouldn't confused anybody or afraid of anything.

Strangely i agree, i think the grading system should be absolutely ludicrous lacking all sense and predictability. Grades in Chemistry one year will be based on the roll of a 100 sided dice, and all other subjects are graded as standard [Flip of a coin].The CAO will also be different, but I couldnt describe it here, as it would progressively more and more random, and needless to say your exam preformance would have no effect on wether you'd get in to college or not. And it will rotate every year.*

*I may not actually approve of this, but say if took HL maths id have a better chance of passing it using this system than the one that's in place

I do however think A1s and A2s should stay right where they are .

K4t

In the interest of fairness and equality and to prevent complaints and legal action from parents and interest groups, every student should be awarded an A1, regardless of how they perform in their exams.

This is 2020 isn't it? :pac:

Fad

K4t wrote: »

In the interest of fairness and equality and to prevent complaints and legal action from parents and interest groups, every student should be awarded an A1, regardless of how they perform in their exams.

I had a delightful racist statement to make there, but i decided i dont want to taste the wrath of the banhammer, or offend anyone for that matter. Far to nice, i are :pac:

Piste

The taste of the banhammer is sour indeed.

PurpleFistMixer

Depends who you're being racist against.

Unfortunatelly I'm racist against YOU, so you're getting the banhammer anyway.


Just kidding. BUT I HAVE MY EYE ON YOU.


Speaking of A2s, my school wanted me to get one of my A2s remarked, in hope it would go up to an A1, even though I couldn't possibly have gotten any more points out of it. Silly people.
(Anyway: advantage of A2 over B1: you get to say "I got x As", you don't have to specify how many of them had 1s or 2s.)

MathsManiac

deemark wrote: »

They're not given marks 'for free' but if the script ends up at 358/400 (89.5%), you wouldn't leave it hanging. You go back and see if it deserves to be brought up to an A1 or if it's a more solid A2. The SEC are keen to cut down on rechecks, so we're told to give solid grades. Examiners are teachers at the end of the day and I would be furious if I saw 358/400 on any of my student's L.C. scripts.

You seem to be forgetting that in very many subjects, several components are added together to give the overall mark. The examiner therefore has no idea whether the candidate is close to a grade boundary or not. So they can't look back over such scripts looking for extra marks, even if they felt so inclined.

I marked maths for many years and we never considered whether or not a mark was close to a boundary; it was pointless, since the ones that were close to a boundary on our paper was unlikely to be close to a boundary when you added the two papers. The chips fell where they fell.

sd123

I think the system as it is, is fine. What's wrong with it? If you brought in an A3 grade, then the better students would aim for 95%, and courses like medicine and law would just stay at ridiculously high points. Or, the points would drop a bit, but it would still be relatively difficult to get in.

The way it stands, students get an extra 10 points for going an extra mile to get from 89.75% to 90%. (and it IS an extra mile, the difference between an A1 and A2 can be many more hours of extra studying) So the student who goes miles more, gets rewarded by a 10 points jump between grades, instead of the normal 5 points. What's the big problem? There has to be a cut off somewhere, so if you get 1 mark short of an A1, loose out on 10 points and your dream course, that's just bad luck*

*coming from a student who almost missed out in a place in medicine because I was 3 marks short of an A1, and 10 extra points.

KnifeWRENCH

Piste wrote: »

The taste of the banhammer is sour indeed.

Why on earth would anyone taste the banhammer? Surely getting hit would be bad enough, never mind licking the damn thing! :pac:

implausible

MathsManiac wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting that in very many subjects, several components are added together to give the overall mark. The examiner therefore has no idea whether the candidate is close to a grade boundary or not. So they can't look back over such scripts looking for extra marks, even if they felt so inclined.

I marked maths for many years and we never considered whether or not a mark was close to a boundary; it was pointless, since the ones that were close to a boundary on our paper was unlikely to be close to a boundary when you added the two papers. The chips fell where they fell.

Apologies, I didn't make it clear that it was English I was talking about!

Piste

What about thetwo papers in English, does the same examiner mark both?

Cian92

K4t wrote: »

:rolleyes:

That is somewhat understandable in subjects like English and history where the examiner's opinion has a large impact on the final result but that is a ridiculous statement with regards to subjects like Accounting, Maths, Physics etc.

Your grade is your grade. If you get 358, then you get 358 and not 360. End of story.

I must disagree with this, I was talking to a corrector of exams, and apparently the have to have a roughly certain percentage of each grade and fails etc. So if you are bordering a grade they go back and bring you up or drop you down!!

rainbowtrout

Piste wrote: »

What about thetwo papers in English, does the same examiner mark both?

yes as far as i can remember they do, it's the only subject that's marked like that.

MathsManiac

rainbowtrout wrote: »

yes as far as i can remember they do, it's the only subject that's marked like that.

Actually, I think Irish is that way too.

But subjects that have separate projects, oral, practicals, etc. are all marked separately, (as are maths P1 and P2).

rainbowtrout

MathsManiac wrote: »

Actually, I think Irish is that way too.

But subjects that have separate projects, oral, practicals, etc. are all marked separately, (as are maths P1 and P2).

yes it is, i'd forgotten about that, but it does have the oral so again, it's the same as having two separate marks.

ZorbaTehZ

How about changing it to A2:85%-90% (90 points), A1:90%-95% (100 points) and then call 95%+ A-Super, A-Special or A-Amazing? Still worth 100 points and it's great for the ego - excellent idea imo.

sd123

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

How about changing it to A2:85%-90% (90 points), A1:90%-95% (100 points) and then call 95%+ A-Super, A-Special or A-Amazing? Still worth 100 points and it's great for the ego - excellent idea imo.

+1.

Call it A*. I like this idea, we all love bragging rights, even if it means nothing in the overall scheme of things.

K4t

Cian92 wrote: »

I must disagree with this, I was talking to a corrector of exams, and apparently the have to have a roughly certain percentage of each grade and fails etc. So if you are bordering a grade they go back and bring you up or drop you down!!

Whatever you're on, I want some :pac:

Cokehead Mother

I wouldn't have gotten any A*s. Therefore I think it's an awful idea.

jaffa20

jaffa20 wrote: »

.

I got 69% overall in my university subject but was still awarded a 1.1.

How?69% is a 2:1.

sd123

Cokehead Mother wrote: »

I wouldn't have gotten any A*s. Therefore I think it's an awful idea.

Words of a sore looser

I wouldn't have gotten any A*'s either!

PurpleFistMixer

Do you know what percentage you got in all your subjects? o.O (I wish they'd publish the exact number, but I have a suspicion one of my A2s is more of a 85.00%)

Fad

square_igloo wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone taste the banhammer? Surely getting hit would be bad enough, never mind licking the damn thing! :pac:

If its the last thing you'll ever taste, why not lick it?

heywhatever

I think its suitable enough as it is; you have to remember that it is a competition for places and someone getting 90 points and you getting 100 in a subject may be the difference between you getting the place you want in college and not getting it. This year I would be a me feiner and focus on myself, not on others...