Graduate - Where To Go Now?

Charlie

This might come across as incredibly dim, but I was wondering if I could get a few opinions.

I have just finished an LLM in Commercial Law (UCD), obviously still awaiting results, but I would expect a 2.1. I also hold a 1.1 LLB from Griffith College.

With the way the industry is looking now, and the scarcity of reasonable training contracts, I am reluctant to go down the FE-1 road at the moment. Further compounding this decision is the fact that, after 4 years of sponging of my parents to go through college, I know need start working and bringing in an income ASAP. Tax is an area I have been looking into a bit lately, but are jobs as scarce there are they are in the legal profession? Compliance is another one, but I am unsure how easy this is to get in to at graduate/trainee level.

I guess my question would be, what are the alternative carear paths for legal grads, who don't go down the Blackhall/Kings route immediately. Are there any particular industries that seek out the skills a law degree can provide?

I would be particulalry interested to hear from anyone who found themselves in a similar position.

I know all this sounds incredibly needy, but I am finding myself isolated and somewhat direction less, now that I have jumped off the educational treadmill.

Pampers25

Hi there. I completed a Law Degree and didn't want to go down the blackhall route either. I found it extremely difficult to change from being a legal secretary to a legal executive. I rang numerous recruitment agencies who were no help whatsoever with trying to find me even a job away from law but something that my law degree would stand to me for. Eg in house or company secretarial or whatever. Needless to say a year later I'm sitting my FE-1's. The reason being that with the recession in full swing by the time I'm qualified (if things go according to plan) the recession will have turned around and I'll be o.k. that's my plan anyways, who knows if it will work or not.

Dan133269

It's a bad situation for us these days alright isn't it. I'm sitting the fe1s next year and had similar thoughts to yourself OP. I was thinking that if I can't get a training contract or work having completed it that I'd go back to college, try get a phd and become a lecturer. Does anyone have any knowledge in this area as to how big of a demand there is now for lecturing jobs?

dats_right

Training contracts are going to become scarcer as firms try reduce costs. So not that I did ever envy those looking for one, I certainly would have even more concerns now than even say six months ago.

Anyway, back to the OP's original questions there are numerous rewarding and fulfilling potential career paths for somebody with your qualifications. You say you are interested in tax, I know the Revenue recently recruited graduates into EO/AO roles so that could be a possibility. I see that the Dept Enterprise, Trade and Employment are currently recruiting Temporary Legal Researcher for their Company Law Section which might be another avenue wirth exploring see: http://www.publicjobs.ie/cand/JobDetails_eng.asp?JobID=3630&hdnGUID=&hdnJobID=2330&sgDest=JOBLISTING

What about trainee diplomat/3rd Secretary in the Dept of Foreign Affairs? In fact, there are literally dozens of jobs in the public sector that might interest you, with the added benefits that careers in the public sector entail. Alternatively, you could consider utilising your legal skills in-house in major international businesses, or applying for graduate positions in the banks, etc. Or maybe even internships in the various EU institutions, (such as Legal Officer (Commercial) in Legal Affairs Unit: http://www.eurobrussels.com/job_display.php?job_id=8225) more jobs on: http://www.eurobrussels.com/EUInstitutions.php , or http://europa.eu/epso/index_en.htm; or how about a traineeship in ECJ : http://curia.europa.eu/en/instit/presentationfr/index_emplois_stag.htm [url][/url] .

The bottom line OP is that there are very many interesting, varied, stimulating and rewarding careers outside the orthodoxy of legal practice. All you need is a little bit of imagination, access to a computer and the quite literally the world could be your oyster. Don't confine yourself to working in a law firm and my advice would be don't become a legal executive unless you want to become a solicitor sooner rather than later, not least because your qualifications far exceed the level of work that you would be doing.

Charlie

dats_right wrote: »

Training contracts are going to become scarcer as firms try reduce costs. So not that I did ever envy those looking for one, I certainly would have even more concerns now than even say six months ago.

Anyway, back to the OP's original questions there are numerous rewarding and fulfilling potential career paths for somebody with your qualifications. You say you are interested in tax, I know the Revenue recently recruited graduates into EO/AO roles so that could be a possibility. I see that the Dept Enterprise, Trade and Employment are currently recruiting Temporary Legal Researcher for their Company Law Section which might be another avenue wirth exploring see: http://www.publicjobs.ie/cand/JobDetails_eng.asp?JobID=3630&hdnGUID=&hdnJobID=2330&sgDest=JOBLISTING

What about trainee diplomat/3rd Secretary in the Dept of Foreign Affairs? In fact, there are literally dozens of jobs in the public sector that might interest you, with the added benefits that careers in the public sector entail. Alternatively, you could consider utilising your legal skills in-house in major international businesses, or applying for graduate positions in the banks, etc. Or maybe even internships in the various EU institutions, (such as Legal Officer (Commercial) in Legal Affairs Unit: http://www.eurobrussels.com/job_display.php?job_id=8225) more jobs on: http://www.eurobrussels.com/EUInstitutions.php , or http://europa.eu/epso/index_en.htm; or how about a traineeship in ECJ : http://curia.europa.eu/en/instit/presentationfr/index_emplois_stag.htm [url][/url] .

The bottom line OP is that there are very many interesting, varied, stimulating and rewarding careers outside the orthodoxy of legal practice. All you need is a little bit of imagination, access to a computer and the quite literally the world could be your oyster. Don't confine yourself to working in a law firm and my advice would be don't become a legal executive unless you want to become a solicitor sooner rather than later, not least because your qualifications far exceed the level of work that you would be doing.

Big thanks for all of that info, and the advice.You have provided some much needed optimism.

BanzaiBk

EU institutions definitely! If I hadn't most of my FEs done, that's the route I'd be going. Do you have a second or third language?

Charlie

BanzaiBk wrote: »

EU institutions definitely! If I hadn't most of my FEs done, that's the route I'd be going. Do you have a second or third language?

I know, they look great, but I don't have a second or third language. Sure, I did French and Irish for the LC, but I wouldn't be able to hold anything approaching a conversation in either of them now.

dats_right

What about brushing up? I know lots of people who went to Alliance Francais french classes for adults, one of whom did so specifically for a job they had been offered in one of the EU Institutions.

What about the UN? (an assistant legal officer: https://jobs.un.org/Galaxy/Release3/Vacancy/Display_Vac.aspx?lang=1200&VACID=347c4f37-7742-4177-aad4-efe4bfd243f5 ) or ( internships: http://www.un.org/Depts/OHRM/sds/internsh/index.htm )

Or the UK civil service graduate recruitment? http://www.faststream.gov.uk/index.asp?txtNavID=71

Or a major international oil company's commercial graduate programme?
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9023299&contentId=7043223

Or graduate banking/financial jobs in London:

http://www.milkround.com/search-browse.aspx?jobtypeid=&eventtypeid=&industryid=&regionid=64&countryid=&continentid=&employerid=&universityid=&startdate=&expirydate=&reviewtypeid=&experiencelevelid=&forumsubjectid=&deadline=&latestvacanciesperiod=&occupationheadingid=&occupationid=&occupationheadingidmerged=3074&industryidmerged=31&partialcompanyname=&userprefs=

http://www.milkround.com/jobs/graduate-job.aspx?jobid=356194

I'm beginning to depress myself at all the jobs that I could have done instead of being a trainee solicitor! Especially as most trainees have dimishing job prospects as the economy and law firms nose dive, all the while more and more people are lining up to join the profession.

If I was starting out again, I think I'd have either; focussed my academics
and aimed at getting into a Magic Circle firm in London, where newly qualified solicitors earn £65k-70K stg p/a basic. Upon qualification you could either stay on and attempt to make partner and the elusive £1m p/a, or move back to the regional backwater that is the top 5 in Dublin on a fast track to partnership. Alternatively, I would have gone into some form of investment banking/trading,where you would consider the young solicitors as paupers in comparison to the money you would be making!

mountainyman

1st of all you have a 1st (OK its from Griffith but it is a 1st).
2nd you have an LLM
You will get a training contract.
The likes of Goodbody's, Cox's are all still recruiting.

In fact with that strong an academic background you can do anything. Like do the bar and do a doctorate at the same time. Why do you feel that you are sponging? Your parents obviously have plenty of money.

McCrack

mountainyman wrote: »

1st of all you have a 1st (OK its from Griffith but it is a 1st).
2nd you have an LLM
You will get a training contract.
The likes of Goodbody's, Cox's are all still recruiting.

In fact with that strong an academic background you can do anything. Like do the bar and do a doctorate at the same time. Why do you feel that you are sponging? Your parents obviously have plenty of money.

A bit presumptuous and snide...but that's some people I guess.

Charlie

mountainyman wrote: »

1st of all you have a 1st (OK its from Griffith but it is a 1st).
2nd you have an LLM
You will get a training contract.
The likes of Goodbody's, Cox's are all still recruiting.

In fact with that strong an academic background you can do anything. Like do the bar and do a doctorate at the same time. Why do you feel that you are sponging? Your parents obviously have plenty of money.

Sponging might have been an OTT phrase to use, but i want to get off their wallet now, and cut it for myself.

Problem is with most of the big 4 is, they are only recruiting for 2010 now. I will still throw my hat in the ring for it, but I need to find something for at least the next 12 months.

The bar doesn't really interest me, as it seems to be another 3 years where you are absolutely brassic, same really for a PHD.

dats_right

mountainyman wrote: »

The likes of Goodbody's, Cox's are all still recruiting.

Yes, but aren't necessarily retaining their newly qualifieds. So it's all well and good passing the difficult FE-1's, doing the vitually impossible and obtaining a training contract, and then at the end of it simultaneously having your name entered onto the Roll of Solicitors and the Live Register!

Charlie

dats_right wrote: »

Yes, but aren't necessarily retaining their newly qualifieds. So it's all well and good passing the difficult FE-1's, doing the vitually impossible and obtaining a training contract, and then at the end of it simultaneously having your name entered onto the Roll of Solicitors and the Live Register!

This is exactly my fear and reluctance. With the way the industry is at the moment, I don't see the logic in spending another year studying for FE-1s that might give me a slim hope of attaining a training contract.

I know it sounds sh/t and totally unrealistic, but at the moment, I would need to receive an offer of a training contract pending completion of the FE-1s for me to seriously consider going down the Blackhall route.

This is why I am looking for alternative carers at the moment, but a view to maybe doing the FE-1's in 2 years time when things have picked back up.

dats_right

charlie mchugh wrote: »

This is why I am looking for alternative carers at the moment, but a view to maybe doing the FE-1's in 2 years time when things have picked back up.

I personally think that this is a very sensible idea.

So the Legal Researcher role in the DENTEMP or another possibility for 'legal graduates' is the recruitment by THE OFFICE OF THE REFUGEE APPLICATIONS COMMISSIONER which requires Legal Graduates for PRESENTING PANEL would seem like good options for you at the moment. http://www.orac.ie/pages/Presenting/presenting.htm

mountainyman

charlie mchugh wrote: »

I know it sounds sh/t and totally unrealistic, but at the moment, I would need to receive an offer of a training contract pending completion of the FE-1s for me to seriously consider going down the Blackhall route.

This is why I am looking for alternative carers at the moment, but a view to maybe doing the FE-1's in 2 years time when things have picked back up.

It's realistic for you. You are the kind of candidate that will get such an offer. Have you written to any of dublin firms looking for such an offer?

Let's get real here only a small minority fo candidates get 1st clss honours.
Your degree is from Griffith but a first from Griffith must still be regarded as better than a 2.1 from anywhere else.
You have a 2.1 LLM.
If you want reassurance you have it.

Charlie

mountainyman wrote: »

It's realistic for you. You are the kind of candidate that will get such an offer. Have you written to any of dublin firms looking for such an offer?

Let's get real here only a small minority fo candidates get 1st clss honours.
Your degree is from Griffith but a first from Griffith must still be regarded as better than a 2.1 from anywhere else.
You have a 2.1 LLM.
If you want reassurance you have it.

Well last November, I applied to probably the top 8 firms. I got interviews from 2.

One went badly, in that the approach adopted by the two interviews was akin to what I imagine a Guantanamo detainee goes through for an interrogation.

The other one went really well. However, there was a drinks evening 2 nights prior to the interviews which I attended, and without getting into the long side of the story, there was very much an atmosphere of favoring those who went to private schools, and turned out for the Rock seniors.

It was all a little soul destroying really, as those stories you hear of it still being a bit of an old boys club, and the 'connections', seemed to manifest itself quite clearly.

However, I won't let those experiences deter me, I will still make the same applications this November. As I mentioned earlier though, I don't hold too many expectations of securing a training contract with one of these firms, before I have the FE-1s under my belt at the very least. Hence, I want to cover my bases,and look for an alternative carear for the next 2 years, and then review my options when hopefully the industry is back to a state of growth.

Cadet?

charlie mchugh wrote: »

One went badly, in that the approach adopted by the two interviews was akin to what I imagine a Guantanamo detainee goes through for an interrogation.

The other one went really well. However, there was a drinks evening 2 nights prior to the interviews which I attended, and without getting into the long side of the story, there was very much an atmosphere of favoring those who went to private schools, and turned out for the Rock seniors.

Haha- I actually bet I know who those two interviewers were- Defo was rougher than Guantanamo!


And regarding the second bit- do you really think that was the reason? I just don't think that's the case....especially with the mid to large-sized firms.

Charlie

Cadet? wrote: »

And regarding the second bit- do you really think that was the reason? I just don't think that's the case....especially with the mid to large-sized firms.

I don't think it was the ultimate reason why I didn't get it, but I definitely feel there was a climate of that sort of stuff in this particular firm, and my chances were probably somewhat diminished that I didn't come for that sort of background.I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of it, but a particular 'incident' occurred at the open evening, which would leave me to draw such conclusions.

I don't want to sound bitter, because I really amen't, but I do feel that when contracts are sparse with the current downturn, these sort of invisible connections can be game changers, at least in this particular firm.

NickDrake

What are the Top 8 firms for those who are applying

A&L
William Fry
Arthur Cox
MOP

??

Johnny Utah

NickDrake wrote: »

What are the Top 8 firms for those who are applying

A&L
William Fry
Arthur Cox
MOP

??

The top 5 (or the biggest 5 depending on how you look at it:p) generally regard themselves on a different tier than anyone else. They are (in no particular order):

Arthur Cox
A&L
McCann Fitzgerald
Matheson Ormsby Prentice
William Fry



Of course, it should also be pointed out that they are small fry compared to the magic circle firms in London, or any of the major firms in the US.

StudentEmeritus

Question re. the applications for the firms named above-

When they say they are accepting applications now for 2010, what does that mean?

Like- say one was to apply now, my friend will have her FE1s completed next March to start Blackhall Sept. 2009 (if she has an traineeship lined up!)

So that schedule to hand, would that mean she could apply now to start 2010 in a firm? And start Blackhall Sept 09?

She's mad for one for the big ones, I'm not that way inclined myself, I'm headed elsewhere.

Can anyone clarify the situation? The joy of knowing you're going to a smaller firm is you can ask questions away, but she is petrified of sounding like a goon if she contacted any of the firms to ask them.

Would appreciate clarification!

Amazotheamazing

Do you actually want to work for one of those firms though?

I dunno, I had interviews for 4 of the 5 and none of them really interested me all that much. You work very hard for what you get and if your ambition isn't to live in Dublin then it's probably not for you. I'm definitely not the type to put in 16 hour days (or even 6 hours days most of the time) so maybe it's just me.

That being said, I reckon it would be easier to move to a bigger city than Dublin with their backround.

June2008

StudentEmeritus wrote: »

Question re. the applications for the firms named above-

When they say they are accepting applications now for 2010, what does that mean?

Like- say one was to apply now, my friend will have her FE1s completed next March to start Blackhall Sept. 2009 (if she has an traineeship lined up!)

So that schedule to hand, would that mean she could apply now to start 2010 in a firm? And start Blackhall Sept 09?

She's mad for one for the big ones, I'm not that way inclined myself, I'm headed elsewhere.

Can anyone clarify the situation? The joy of knowing you're going to a smaller firm is you can ask questions away, but she is petrified of sounding like a goon if she contacted any of the firms to ask them.

Would appreciate clarification!

i would say to your frined to ring the trainee recruitment department and ask as many questions as she likes or alternatively send an email! I got a training contract with one of the Big 5 firms and they have been nothing but accomodating and nice on every way even lending me the acts for my FE1s! They are trained to answer questions and its always better to make an informed decision with all the facts then to wonder what might have been. Although as far as I know when they say they are recruiting for 2010 they intend for you to start blackhall or inhouse in 2010 but some firms are flexible about this.

dats_right

NickDrake wrote: »

What are the Top 8 firms for those who are applying

A&L
William Fry
Arthur Cox
MOP

??

Based on the 2007 Law Directory:

BCM Hanby Wallace who are a long way ahead of;

O'Donnell Sweeney Eversheds,

Mason Hayes Curran and Dillon Eustace (who are all roughly about the same)

Followed then by the likes of Eugene F Collins, Beauchamps and LK Shields. (who are also all roughly about the same)

Sangre

I interviewed with law firms in January of this year and have just started in Blackhall with one of the big 5. Even though they say they are recruiting for 2010 if you can start blackhall they will probably accommodate you as one or two graduates usually fail one or two fe1s and can't start. In fact beauchamps only interview for people they want starting that year.

Also never be put off by not getting an offer the previous year. If you have improved yourself and your CV in the mean time they are happy to re interview you. Use the 2nd time to improve your CV and interview skills (and it is a skill you do get better). This private school thing is a bit of a nonsense, firms are in it to make money and will pick the guys who will be the best.

By the way good grades are only a way of getting your foot in the door with the larger firms. Once you have the interview you have to show your well rounded person that has many interests. Make sure to include any and all achievements in a CV, especially non-academic ones.
In the mean time check out the Dept of Justice, the courts, refugee review board etc., while in college these places were always advertising for people with a 2.1 law degree. Also try legal departments to the big banks.

LawyerGirl

Hi All

Just wondering if anyone could tell me the requirements of the english law society as to english land law? I have a 1:1 from UCD but I have not done english land law, does anyone know if I would have to do the GDL before doing the LPC as a result?

Duffman

LawyerGirl wrote: »

Hi All

Just wondering if anyone could tell me the requirements of the english law society as to english land law? I have a 1:1 from UCD but I have not done english land law, does anyone know if I would have to do the GDL before doing the LPC as a result?

If you started your degree in 2003 or earlier then Irish land law will suffice. If the Solicitors Regulation Authority tells you otherwise they are wrong and you might need to yell at them a bit to get the necessary pieces of paper.

You will need to have English land law on your transcript to get exemptions from 2004 onwards. If you don't have this you only need to do that module on the GDL and I'm pretty sure it can be done part time.

Don't forget that you need admin law too.

To be honest though, the SRA are a total joke and if you applied without the required subjects there is a small but not insignificant chance that you would get through anyway. This has been known to happen. That said, it would be a terrible idea.

In practice the large London firms don't really care if you need to do the GDL and it certainly won't affect your chances of getting a TC. The course looks painful though, particularly for someone who did a law degree.

LawyerGirl

thats what i thought........ I was just hoping since I had all the rest of the requirements I could just do an exam or something instead of wasting a whole year!!!!!!!!
Do you if you have to have a training contract secured before you start/apply?

Maximilian

alisonoriordan wrote: »

Hi I am looking for trainne solicitors who fear for their jobs in the coming months or who have lost their jobs due to the downturn in the economy to comment I can be contacted at alioriordan@gmail.com and you can tell me your thoughts
thx

Do I take it you write for the Indo?

Robbo

Maximilian wrote: »

Do I take it you write for the Indo?

Considering the exact same piece was done last week in the Times, it would have to be the Indo, wouldn't it?

Duffman

alisonoriordan wrote: »

Hi I am looking for trainne solicitors who fear for their jobs in the coming months or who have lost their jobs due to the downturn in the economy to comment I can be contacted at alioriordan@gmail.com and you can tell me your thoughts
thx

If you're a trainee solicitor you will not lose your job. That is why it is called a "training contract".

Solicitors might be concerned about their jobs on the other hand.

Research off to a good start then...

Maximilian

Guys, Can we be a little more welcoming here & less sarcastic, assuming she is a journalist. It's an issue that merits media attention, so let's help bring it to light rather than take pot-shots at the messenger.

dats_right

Maximilian wrote: »

Guys, Can we be a little more welcoming here & less sarcastic, assuming she is a journalist. It's an issue that merits media attention, so let's help bring it to light rather than take pot-shots at the messenger.

+1

Also, don't be so certain that training contracts can't be terminated, I've heard of one or two trainees being told to find a firm to transfer their indentures and others put on short weeks. But this sort of stuff goes under the radar and the Law Society turn a blind eye.

Amazotheamazing

dats_right wrote: »

+1

Also, don't be so certain that training contracts can't be terminated, I've heard of one or two trainees being told to find a firm to transfer their indentures and others put on short weeks. But this sort of stuff goes under the radar and the Law Society turn a blind eye.

As have I, along with at least one other who was "invited" to continue working for free. Of course, our great friends in the Law Society were a massive help to everyone involved....

Gangu

That's awful, I thought those days were long gone. Would you hazard a letter to the Gazette on the subject? Not naming and shaming. Lets face it, you might not work again in the profession, but a letter highlighting this issue?