Being The Bookie

kryogen

So heres the deal, a couple of my business partners and me were looking into a couple of premises with the intention of opening a betting shop, i would be grateful for any info anybody could give me on how to go about this in regards to

How difficult is it to get a license?

How much would you need to start the place up

How much is needed in reserve when open

Is it really financially viable these days

Any useful links would be helpful also

Thanks

thedini

kryogen wrote: »

So heres the deal, a couple of my business partners and me were looking into a couple of premises with the intention of opening a betting shop, i would be grateful for any info anybody could give me on how to go about this in regards to

How difficult is it to get a license?

How much would you need to start the place up

How much is needed in reserve when open

Is it really financially viable these days

Any useful links would be helpful also

Thanks

the only thing that I can answer is that it most definitely will be financially viable, people bet more in an economic downturn and all that.(obv.other factors taken into account location,competition etc etc)

cson

thedini wrote: »

the only thing that I can answer is that it most definitely will be financially viable, people bet more in an economic downturn and all that.(obv.other factors taken into account location,competition etc etc)

That's a load of shite. The bookmakers suffer along with the rest of the economy. Want eveidence? Paddy Powers share price was ~€26 a share now its €13. Its lost half its market value in 18 months. People don't have the disposable income to bet anymore, or if they do they bet less. That lad from Chronicles said it this year, fella's who normally bet 50s were betting 10s and 20s max at the Galway Races.

To answer your question kryogen, to open a Betting Office you need two documents;
(a) Suitability of Premises: Obtained from your local County Council planning office in a method similar to that of applying for Planning Permission.
(b) A licence from the Revenue Commissioners.

Personally, unless you've got a lot of capital behind you its going to be very tough. You're talking around €50 - €100k just to get the shop up and running. The market is saturated too, I live in a town of less than 2000 people and we've 3 betting offices. Thats 1 for every 650 men, women and children in the parish which is absolute madness. A lot of independents are getting out of it too, the big 3 of Powers, Boyles and Ladbrokes are buying up a lot of independent shops.

Basically, unless you know what you're doing and have a good bit of money to throw at this, I'd be very tentative to get involved.

thedini

cson wrote: »

That's a load of shite. The bookmakers suffer along with the rest of the economy. Want eveidence? Paddy Powers share price was ~€26 a share now its €13. Its lost half its market value in 18 months. People don't have the disposable income to bet anymore, or if they do they bet less. That lad from Chronicles said it this year, fella's who normally bet 50s were betting 10s and 20s max at the Galway Races.

To answer your question kryogen, to open a Betting Office you need two documents;
(a) Suitability of Premises: Obtained from your local County Council planning office in a method similar to that of applying for Planning Permission.
(b) A licence from the Revenue Commissioners.

Personally, unless you've got a lot of capital behind you its going to be very tough. You're talking around €50 - €100k just to get the shop up and running. The market is saturated too, I live in a town of less than 2000 people and we've 3 betting offices. Thats 1 for every 650 men, women and children in the parish which is absolute madness. A lot of independents are getting out of it too, the big 3 of Powers, Boyles and Ladbrokes are buying up a lot of independent shops.

Basically, unless you know what you're doing and have a good bit of money to throw at this, I'd be very tentative to get involved.

i am not going to get into an argument with u because u obviously have a very limited knowledge of what u are on about

ArmaniJeanss

thedini wrote: »

people bet more in an economic downturn and all that.

This is a sweeping statement which I've read on the poker forum as well.
Is there any actual evidence for it, other than that it seems to be an accepted 'FACT' ?

I'd have thought the evidence must be very scant - theres only been 2 recessions in the UK since deregulation of bookmakers in the 60s (Oil Crisis of 1970s and houseprice crash of 1987), most of the betting during the major USA recessions (1928 etc) has been done with illegal bookmakers, ditto Asia.

thedini

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is a sweeping statement which I've read on the poker forum as well.
Is there any actual evidence for it, other than that it seems to be an accepted 'FACT' ?

I'd have thought the evidence must be very scant - theres only been 2 recessions in the UK since deregulation of bookmakers in the 60s (Oil Crisis of 1970s and houseprice crash of 1987), most of the betting during the major USA recessions (1928 etc) has been done with illegal bookmakers, ditto Asia.

don't have facts and figures for u, if i get a chance tommorow will check it out. do multi-millionaires do the lotto?

kryogen

cson wrote: »

That's a load of shite. The bookmakers suffer along with the rest of the economy. Want eveidence? Paddy Powers share price was ~€26 a share now its €13. Its lost half its market value in 18 months. People don't have the disposable income to bet anymore, or if they do they bet less. That lad from Chronicles said it this year, fella's who normally bet 50s were betting 10s and 20s max at the Galway Races.

To answer your question kryogen, to open a Betting Office you need two documents;
(a) Suitability of Premises: Obtained from your local County Council planning office in a method similar to that of applying for Planning Permission.
(b) A licence from the Revenue Commissioners.

Personally, unless you've got a lot of capital behind you its going to be very tough. You're talking around €50 - €100k just to get the shop up and running. The market is saturated too, I live in a town of less than 2000 people and we've 3 betting offices. Thats 1 for every 650 men, women and children in the parish which is absolute madness. A lot of independents are getting out of it too, the big 3 of Powers, Boyles and Ladbrokes are buying up a lot of independent shops.

Basically, unless you know what you're doing and have a good bit of money to throw at this, I'd be very tentative to get involved.

Ill quote you as you are staying on topic and actually answering me! thanks

the money isnt an issue, but i have noticed that paddypower are killing the market really. We could possibly be signing an agreement to lease a premises on Monday and since its happening very fast I would appreciate any more information you guys can give

Application for the license went in today and the premises itself is already holding the permit from the council as it was developed with a betting shop in mind

the area itself is a city, not in the centre of the city though, but the one great thing it has is that we would be the only betting shop in the area, there is one there now, and they have a monopoly of the punters in the area, they are closing soon and think that they have first option on the premises we are interested in

luckily for us, they dont! so if we can get in there ahead of them it would be something of a coup

cson

thedini wrote: »

i am not going to get into an argument with u because u obviously have a very limited knowledge of what u are on about

Believe me, I have extensive knowledge of what I'm on about. You happen to be the one who made a sweeping statement with nothing to back it up. That and it was a load of shite.

Tell you what, I'll give you a little task if you've a little patience; compare turnover in a large betting company who publish their accounts such as Powers over a course of lets say 10 years from 2002 - 2012 and see if theres any weight to your argument. Forgive the pun, but I'm willing to bet you'll see 5 years of increasing turnover 2002 - 2007 and 5 years of decreasing turnover 2008 - 2012.

Anyway, this is all off-topic, the OPs question has more or less been answered.

cson

kryogen wrote: »

Ill quote you as you are staying on topic and actually answering me! thanks

the money isnt an issue, but i have noticed that paddypower are killing the market really. We could possibly be signing an agreement to lease a premises on Monday and since its happening very fast I would appreciate any more information you guys can give

Application for the license went in today and the premises itself is already holding the permit from the council as it was developed with a betting shop in mind

the area itself is a city, not in the centre of the city though, but the one great thing it has is that we would be the only betting shop in the area, there is one there now, and they have a monopoly of the punters in the area, they are closing soon and think that they have first option on the premises we are interested in

luckily for us, they dont! so if we can get in there ahead of them it would be something of a coup

Well if money isn't an issue then definitely go for it. You'll have to be patient though as it'll more than likely be around year 2 before you break even and start making a profit on what you've invested.

I'd hazard a guess that the other firm will object to your licence so you may have a date in court where you'll have to prove that there is market demand for another shop in the area.

Secondly, I'd imagine the other firm will reopen the shop they're closing after they realise they don't have your premises to move into. Best advice I can give you in this regard is start giving free bets/specials etc to take a fair whack of their punters. It'll cost you short term but it'll pay off long term as those customers will stay with you.

kryogen

cson wrote: »

Well if money isn't an issue then definitely go for it. You'll have to be patient though as it'll more than likely be around year 2 before you break even and start making a profit on what you've invested.

I'd hazard a guess that the other firm will object to your licence so you may have a date in court where you'll have to prove that there is market demand for another shop in the area.

Secondly, I'd imagine the other firm will reopen the shop they're closing after they realise they don't have your premises to move into. Best advice I can give you in this regard is start giving free bets/specials etc to take a fair whack of their punters. It'll cost you short term but it'll pay off long term as those customers will stay with you.

Thanks!

This is the great part, they have no way of opening their old shop again. the building has been bought by a neighbouring shop and they are going to extend into it

We are looking into doing lots of different specials and that kind of stuff alright, we would know alot of the punters in the area pretty well so attracting them shouldnt be too hard imo

2 years to break even is very acceptable to me anyway, its a long term plan for me

cson

Short term pain, long term gain

Best of luck with it anyway.

kryogen

thanks mate, ill let you lads know if anything happens with this

its a business avenue we plan to go down even if we dont get this particular one

still need to figure out so much stuff about it, lots of work to do before monday gotta convince the guy to give us the place over a well established huge bookmaker chain lol

ArmaniJeanss

So you're not sure if its financially viable (OP) and you need to figure this out before Monday (LP).
Good luck.

I suggest you spend 18 months on Betfair to see if you are cut out for the odds-making side of it.

rag2gar

Where is this bookies going to be? I might pop in for a bet when its opened!

kryogen

its in waterford if anyone wants to pop in!

haha, no i have checked alot out and i have been on betfair for the past 2.5 years man,(AJ) i understand that side pretty well, was just getting some second opinions about actually opening a shop....

i figure its going to be alot of work and wanted to see if peolple here think the economy will support it and whether it will be worth it in the end

personally, i do.....the only problem i face is a big established bookies, they are so hard to take on and if we could get this place going under the radar (its not located too close to any major bookmaker) id be delighted

i would actually take on william hill if i had to, but not paddy power, not yet anyway! they just have too much of the market to make a dent in them right now, its like 30% of the total irish betting market at this stage

ArmaniJeanss

kryogen wrote: »

haha, no i have checked alot out and i have been on betfair for the past 2.5 years man,(AJ) i understand that side pretty well, was just getting some second opinions about actually opening a shop....

i figure its going to be alot of work and wanted to see if peolple here think the economy will support it and whether it will be worth it in the end

personally, i do.....the only problem i face is a big established bookies, they are so hard to take on and if we could get this place going under the radar (its not located too close to any major bookmaker) id be delighted

i would actually take on william hill if i had to, but not paddy power, not yet anyway! they just have too much of the market to make a dent in them right now, its like 30% of the total irish betting market at this stage

I think that William Hill and Ladbrokes are definitely worth taking on, their shops are generally badly designed and laid out, their staff undermotivated and their managers not given enough power to digress from HQ policy re bonuses, liability management etc in order to cope with local competition.

PPs are a different kettle of fish as you said.

Sounds like you know more of what you are doing that I previously gave you credit for, so the very best of luck with it.

cson

Absolutely hit the nail on the head regarding the english chains. Awful set-ups and the only reason they turn the profits they do is because of economies of scale. Imo, Paddy Power is the template for how to run a successful bookmaker.

Off topic, anyone read the front of the Sindo today? Still think bookies aren't affected by the recession...:rolleyes:

kryogen

cson wrote: »

Absolutely hit the nail on the head regarding the english chains. Awful set-ups and the only reason they turn the profits they do is because of economies of scale. Imo, Paddy Power is the template for how to run a successful bookmaker.

Off topic, anyone read the front of the Sindo today? Still think bookies aren't affected by the recession...:rolleyes:

no whats happening?

how many independants are closing down lol

cson

One of the staff in Celtic Bookmakers leaked a document to the Sindo from Ivan Yeats warning that there would be no bonuses paid this year and that there will be job cuts across the firm. He's closed one shop already and sold another. Out of 64 shops, 26 are lossmaking.

kryogen

the one down here thats closest to the big paddy powers has got to be on the way out alright, at half 9 last friday they had taken only 364 bets....... that is shocking and no bookies could keep going if thats their take on a friday with big meetings!

That area is great for a bookmakers but paddypower just have it completely sown up in fairness, as they do in most places i guess

my own model would try to incorporate alot of the good things paddypower have brought to the industry but also to try and innovate new ideas into the market also so that maybe we can provide an attractive alternative

cson

kryogen wrote: »

the one down here thats closest to the big paddy powers has got to be on the way out alright, at half 9 last friday they had taken only 364 bets....... that is shocking and no bookies could keep going if thats their take on a friday with big meetings!

Depends on what you turn over on the 364 slips. Goes without saying I'd rather turn a profit of €2000 on 364 slips than turn a profit of €500 on twice the number of slips.

As for being innovative, the only way I can see bookies being able to compete with the exchanges is to offer the ability to lay horses to the punter. Thats my innovation for betting shops anyway, fook yer coffee and tea and all that shoite.

kryogen

i see your point on that but i know for a fact that their big punters are the guys who bet 100-400euro on a good day and 50-150 on a bad

whereas across in pp i see guys betting who i know to regularly place multiple bets of 4000-10000, when the hit you they can hurt but in the long run the only winner is the bookie in fairness

i am looking into a system to allow guys to lay and to bet in running, but simple things like refunding all first goalscorer bets on a game with no score and handing out free bets is the simplest way to start imo. obviously i have more ideas for specials and doing things different in my head but i cant be telling everyone about them lol

punchestown

kryogen wrote: »

but simple things like refunding all first goalscorer bets on a game with no score

Bar no goal scorer bets of course!

corban

to open a bookies you'll need:

a certificate of sutability of premises from your local garda superintendent
(ie there are not too many bookies near there already, too near church/school etc)

a cerificate of suitability for yourself (owners)
(i.e. previous criminal convictions, previous bad debts with other buisness etc)

minimum balance in coffers after opening is €50k, this will change depending on value of wagers taken and percentages etc

these are only a few of the items needed, when you actually go about doing it, you'll find that ther are loads of conditions and several bars to holding a gambling license. thats before u even get started, once opened there are so many rules and regs to conform to, that you really need to know what you're doing to stay open... (rules re advertising, patrons etc).

best of luck and make sure u do your homework....

kryogen

thankds corban, you seem to know a bit more here, could you go into a little more detail in regards to what kind of rules and regs there are after opening? advertising etc. this is an area where i am least sure of

the rest is being taken care of, the personal fitness cert is no problem, the premises cert is no problem and the money is no problem

trynabe

kryogen wrote: »

So heres the deal, a couple of my business partners and me were looking into a couple of premises with the intention of opening a betting shop, i would be grateful for any info anybody could give me on how to go about this in regards to

How difficult is it to get a license?

How much would you need to start the place up

How much is needed in reserve when open

Is it really financially viable these days

Any useful links would be helpful also

Thanks

well if you look at coronation street yer man tookover the bookies with a ten k loan the other night hahahahaahah try that
seriously talk to large gamblers or racetrack bookies theyl tell you probably for a price tho
good luck

jacool

the two biggest costs are
rent and
pictures

the second one of these did for my buddy in the UK
the first 2000 was needed monthly to break even

he never took in 2000 !!

then when a big bet came in he had to lay some off or risk getting blown out of the water. this laying-off bit is where the BIG decisions will have to be made and you should agree this policy before you have to make a decision.

kryogen

jacool wrote: »

the two biggest costs are
rent and
pictures

the second one of these did for my buddy in the UK
the first 2000 was needed monthly to break even

he never took in 2000 !!

then when a big bet came in he had to lay some off or risk getting blown out of the water. this laying-off bit is where the BIG decisions will have to be made and you should agree this policy before you have to make a decision.

sorry but i dont know what your talking about when you say pictures?

Mezcita

Presume its live coverage of the various races.

kryogen

ah right, well if thats it, we have that covered and included in the budget

Davey Devil

Out of interest, how much is Turf TV, SIS, Sky and Setanta per annum?

charlesanto

Guaranteed to make money....

Check out the bookie value in "to qualify for final" in the laurels Click Me !!

Howjoe1

kryogen wrote: »

thanks mate, ill let you lads know if anything happens with this

its a business avenue we plan to go down even if we dont get this particular one

still need to figure out so much stuff about it, lots of work to do before monday gotta convince the guy to give us the place over a well established huge bookmaker chain lol

Dying to know if you went ahead. Expecting to open shop in 2 months and a bit nervous now.

kryogen

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Dying to know if you went ahead. Expecting to open shop in 2 months and a bit nervous now.

tied up in red tape at the moment mate, a certain citys council is objecting and blocking the change of use license right now, i dont think it will be a huge problem but its a bit of an un needed headache tbh

how did you go about getting a change of use license if you dont mind me asking? if you needed one of course

Howjoe1

kryogen wrote: »

tied up in red tape at the moment mate, a certain citys council is objecting and blocking the change of use license right now, i dont think it will be a huge problem but its a bit of an un needed headache tbh

how did you go about getting a change of use license if you dont mind me asking? if you needed one of course

Through planning application with local County Council. It's all taken ages, what with getting architect to get off his arse and submit application. Decision due this week so hopefully it gets approved. You then have to wait 4 weeks for potential objectors and a further two weeks before trading. It can get frustrating.

redarmyblues

My sober advice is not to do it at the moment. You cannot give small shops away n the present climate. Check out the october edition of the trade mag, Betting Business on page 10 "Irish betting market suffers from oversupply". Brief synopsis 400 shops opened last year, 1554 up from 909 in 2002, shop for every 2728 people compared to 7058 in UK,margins lower than UK, and no FOBt,s. add 2% tax and the fact you will be holding an asset you cannot sell in the current climate.

A word on margins you might get a gross win as small as 7%. Take out 2% tax and you will need to turnover 2m a year to break even. It is a pig of a way to make a living.

redarmyblues

one more thing, if you do decide to go ahead, do not touch I repeat do not touch the Abeta bet capture system.

Howjoe1

redarmyblues wrote: »

one more thing, if you do decide to go ahead, do not touch I repeat do not touch the Abeta bet capture system.

Thanks for that. Arkle Epos system seems very expensive in the long run with high monthly charges. Any recommendations?

jellybaby21

try alpha-meric it is used by alot of independants celtic included.

Browney7

Ya most of the independents use the Alphameric system. I work weekends in an independent Bookmakers and its a fine system to use. A bit more labour intensive on the staff though compared to epos;)

Powers are trying to kill the market and force the independents out of business imo. Look at all the promotions they run Last man Standing and Guaranteed early morning prices and things like that.

Too many offices in the country in my opinion