Games Publishers & Pre-owned Games

Maximilian

One of the points raised by someone in the rather overheated Spore DRM thread was that one of the real reasons for limited install DRM was to kill-off the 2nd hand games market. I wasn't sure whether I agreed with that too much until I saw this article:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/pre-owned-market-had-big-effect-on-halo-says-bungie-dev

So my question is, how many of you regularly buy pre-owned games. I don't think I've ever bought one pre-owned.

Is there any way they could use DRM or an equivalent device to try and kill off the pre-owned market for console games, where I imagine it's more prevalent. Anyone heard of attempts to do so?

I don't mean this to be thread on the merits or otherwise of DRM per se, I've had enough of that for the moment.

DarkJager

I'm not sure why exactly game developers would want to kill off the second hand games market. Lets say someone picks up Generic Shooter 1 second hand and really likes it. Surely this leads to them having an interest in or purchasing Generic Shooter 2 when its released, thus making profit for the developers?

I regularly buy second hand games, if only for the chance to have 2 or 3 different games to play around with. I still love purchasing a good game on its release date, but second hand allows you to pick up some of the older and maybe overlooked titles for cheap.

Maximilian

Well because they don't make any money from second hand games. I imagine they don't care whether Bob likes Generic Shooter 1: the Unspecified* or not, since he didn't make them any money anyway.

Whatever benefit there may be from Bob becoming interested in Generic Shooter 2: The Homogeneous Standardization* as a result, is probably worth far less than Bob buying the game first hand. Besides, isn't that what demos are for?

I imagine these guys have done the numbers and as per that article have decided the second hand market has to go, so they can make more money.

*Not actual games, actual Bob

R0ot

I've bought many a pre-owned game, from pc to various consoles. EA are just looking for more money as always on reason for this stupid 3 try install crap.

Maximilian

It's not just EA though. I can see this becoming more widespread. I can see it eventually happening with consoles.

Helix

DarkJager wrote: »

I'm not sure why exactly game developers would want to kill off the second hand games market

in the eyes of publishers, second hand games is the exact same as piracy

Jack Sheehan

How could the spore DRM affect the second hand pc market? As far as I know it doesn't really exist. I mean you get the online trading sure but Game, Gamestop or the like don't take PC games do they?

CCCP^

Well OP, I've bought a lot of second-hand games, not always from stores but from individuals aswell. The games haven't always been for the latest consoles either - I've bought alot of stuff from the Game Exchange. Sometimes it's what you have to do to get a game you really want. I never trade stuff in because it's just such a loss to do so, you tend to get ripped off. I've decided to stop buying second-hand games from game stores like GAME and Gamestop or Xtra-Vision because the money is going straight to an entity that isn't putting that profit back into the videogame industry or atleast putting the profit back to the customer in some way.

When I buy a 360 which is the next machine I'd like to own, but not for awhile, I will try my best to buy new games. It will also limit the amount of ****e I buy

CCCP^

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

How could the spore DRM affect the second hand pc market? As far as I know it doesn't really exist. I mean you get the online trading sure but Game, Gamestop or the like don't take PC games do they?

Trading PC games is allowed in Canada and the US. EB Games and Gamestop, which is all part of the same Gamestop corporation we have here, will accept PC games as trades. Those two games virtually dominate the videogame retail market in the US and Canada.

projectmayhem

R0ot wrote: »

EA are just looking for more money as always on reason for this stupid 3 try install crap.

Ignore EA, Sony had the same fight before the PS3 was due out IIRC. No one in the games industry wants to support second-hand gaming because it only benefits one person - the retailers, who often over-charge for these second hand titles anyway. A fiver discount from a game in gamestop is not a bargain... it's probably better to buy new to avoid any scratches...

I would have no problem with a clamp-down on traded games as long as they manage to fix the pricing structure... and make it fair to everyone. There's just too much profiteering from the retailers at the moment, and I'd rather have the money go to a developer/publisher who'll fund something worth buying in the future.

MooseJam

"but it seems to me that the folks who create and publish a game shouldn't stop receiving income from further sales."

what did he just say lol, do these guys think they are so special they should get a chunk from every subsequent sale, thats one of the most laughable things I have heard in a long time, do they not understand the meaning of sold or what, imagine fiat moaning about the second hand car market, there's a second hand market in nearly every product under the sun and these tits are the only ones moaning about it

noodler

Obviously consumers benefit as well from second hand games. I guess p2p selling/buying is better tho.

mcgovern

projectmayhem wrote: »

Ignore EA, Sony had the same fight before the PS3 was due out IIRC.

Yes, there were rumours that there would be DRM built in, to make games playable on only 1 machine, but after an uproar from gamers, they denied it.

Live Arcade games have DRM, so do PSN games I think? and I'm not sure about Wii Virtual Console games.
Kinda makes sense on these though as they are digital downloads, so could be pirated (1 person pays for it, logs in on all his friends consoles and re-downloads it) easily without it.

Ciaran500

How is this different from a manufacturer complaining that if I sell my old pc hardware/music/DVD's etc. I don't give them a cut.

wayne040576

Ciaran500 wrote: »

How is this different from a manufacturer complaining that if I sell my old pc hardware/music/DVD's etc. I don't give them a cut.

It's not. But they're trying to convince everyone that it is.

mcgovern

Ciaran500 wrote: »

How is this different from a manufacturer complaining that if I sell my old pc hardware/music/DVD's etc. I don't give them a cut.

Legally, for hardware, when you buy something, you own it.
For software (including CDs/DVDs), because of draconian copyright laws, you are basically buying a licence to use it, which is non-transferable.

Its load of ****.

yoyo

I tend to buy pre-owned as their cheaper, especially for older titles :pac:

Nick

L31mr0d

What the game companies need to do then is start up a system, whereby, if you want to get rid of the game before a defined period of you can sell them back to the company. This way they get there game back and nobody gets to buy it second hand. The people buying second hand from game stores would then have to buy it first hand.

The game company could then sell on the second hand copy at a "refurbished" cost themselves and could also then control how many refurbished copies get sold and when to let the refurbished copies go on sale.

This however doesn't stop the selling between friends, but then again, if it was a choice of my friend offering me €20 for one of my games, and EA offering me €30, i'd sell to EA.

Retr0gamer

Your idea would definitely work, it's like the way car manufacturers have gotten in on the second hand market by selling second hand from their own stores. Pity the games companies don't realise it.

projectmayhem

mcgovern wrote: »

so do PSN games I think?

Yes most of the PSN titles do too, sometimes even on second/third/etc. accounts on the same PS3!

And this is where it's going, partly because of the lost revenue through retailers. Digital is where it's at. Last year an interview with studio liverpool (wipeout HD) showed that the developers get more of the money from digital downloads, and they are almost guarinteed that every game being played is legitimate. The price is lower for the obvious reasons, but also means it's easier to "try out" a game you normally wouldn't go for because it's cheaper.

MooseJam wrote: »

do these guys think they are so special they should get a chunk from every subsequent sale, thats one of the most laughable things I have heard in a long time, do they not understand the meaning of sold or what, imagine fiat moaning about the second hand car market, there's a second hand market in nearly every product under the sun and these tits are the only ones moaning about it

If there was a second-hand market in any other forms of software then there'd be uproar. Sure Microsoft et al have very strict DRM on their products so you can't resell the products. I had an awful time with Vista when I had to re-install after a big hardware upgrade...

As for your idea of "sold", as someone already pointed out, you don't own any software, you just buy a license for it. This is why software usually has two licenses, business and personal. If you ignore the fact that it's videogame software, it makes perfect sense that publishers aren't overly excited about the second hand market.

thelordofcheese

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Your idea would definitely work, it's like the way car manufacturers have gotten in on the second hand market by selling second hand from their own stores. Pity the games companies don't realise it.

I'm imagining that the sheer volume of titles plus y'know, piracy (esp on the PC front), are significant factors against this.

Lets face it, the bulk of games that would get sold back to the publisher are also the same games you find in the pre-owned section. a glut of FIFA whateveryearitis +1 games, bad film tie ins and generic FPS games, there would be an occasional good game but the majority would be people taking back ill advised purchases.

Why would they be interested in taking back copies of games they knew they couldn't shift?

MOH

I raised this in the Spore DRM thread, but I only meant it in terms of PC games.

Maximilian wrote:

Well because they don't make any money from second hand games. I imagine they don't care whether Bob likes Generic Shooter 1: the Unspecified* or not, since he didn't make them any money anyway.

Whatever benefit there may be from Bob becoming interested in Generic Shooter 2: The Homogeneous Standardization* as a result, is probably worth far less than Bob buying the game first hand. Besides, isn't that what demos are for?

I imagine these guys have done the numbers and as per that article have decided the second hand market has to go, so they can make more money.

As you say, they must have done the numbers.

I still don't get it though - Bob isn't going to buy Generic Shooter 1 anyway, so they're losing out on a possible sale for GS2:THS without any benefit.

Also, suppose Fred is on a tight budget. He's happy to buy GS1 for €50, knowing if he finishes it in a week or two he can sell it second hand to some Bob for €20 (€30 if he's lucky), so the game is only costing him €30 max. But with restrictive DRM, that second hand sale is gone, and he can't afford to pay the full €50.

So now, instead of having one sale of GS1, and two people playing the game who might then buy GS2:THS™, you've got no sale. And a fairly p'd off Fred, who in a fit of pique might just go and download the game somewhere. As might Bob, since he can't buy it anywhere second hand. Publishers 0 2 Pirates (2 own goals).

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

How could the spore DRM affect the second hand pc market? As far as I know it doesn't really exist. I mean you get the online trading sure but Game, Gamestop or the like don't take PC games do they?

I ended up with two copies (due the The Hut failing to cancel an order) and originally planned to sell the second on at face value. Then news of the whole DRM thing broke. A few days later there was a new sealed copy going on adverts for €15. I ended up posting my second copy back.
The second hand PC game market is mainly between individuals - ebay, adverts, and the like - DRM like this is going to kill it, since you've no way of knowing if the game you buy has all its installs used up.

projectmayhem wrote: »

Ignore EA, Sony had the same fight before the PS3 was due out IIRC. No one in the games industry wants to support second-hand gaming because it only benefits one person - the retailers, who often over-charge for these second hand titles anyway. A fiver discount from a game in gamestop is not a bargain... it's probably better to buy new to avoid any scratches...

I would have no problem with a clamp-down on traded games as long as they manage to fix the pricing structure... and make it fair to everyone. There's just too much profiteering from the retailers at the moment, and I'd rather have the money go to a developer/publisher who'll fund something worth buying in the future.

Yep, retailers make lots of money out of second hand console games - and publishers allow that. Consumers make a small amount of money out of second hand PC game sales, publishers don't seem to want that. Wonder who has more lobbying power with the publishers?

Ross_Mahon

The only time i don't buy a game pre-owned is if its really good

byte

Maybe this is the reasoning behind "Platinum" games for PlayStation consoles (I presume other consoles offer similar schemes too). Popular games get re-released at a budget price, making second hand purchases less appealing.

noodler

Platinum was/is a great idea. You really shouldn't ever have to spend more than 40e (45 max) on game in a high street-lots of people would prefer brand new-lower price makes it more attractive.