Drums...

TelePaul

...are impossible to record.

That is all :mad:

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

...are impossible to record.

That is all :mad:

No.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

No.

You wanna hear a sample?

FruitLover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

No.

Agreed.

dav nagle

TelePaul wrote: »

...are impossible to record.

That is all :mad:

are you recording in a large match box?

ICN

TelePaul wrote: »

...are impossible to re-cord.

That is all :mad:

Do you not re-skin them? :pac:


Its late.

ZV Yoda

Post a sample... I'd love to hear what advice the folks in here have to give - I'm sure lots of us would benefit from a real-life example!

studiorat

It's all in the preparation of the kit. If the kit is tuned proper like then it will be a doddle. Drums with a crap player are impossible to record.

judas101

Ezdrummer ftw!

Doctor J

studiorat wrote: »

It's all in the preparation of the kit. If the kit is tuned proper like then it will be a doddle. Drums with a crap player are impossible to record.

That's the single most important piece of advice you'll ever read regarding drum recording. If the guy can play and can tune the kit (really tune it, not just high pitch to low pitch across toms) then it's almost impossible not to record well. Even a cheap kit can sound amazing when tuned well.

If the kit ain't tuned, all the fancy mics, most expensive drum kits and posh rooms in the world aren't going to make it sound good.

If you see the drummer using tape and bog roll on the skins, it's a sure sign he doesn't know how to tune it and is trying to dampen the overtones out of it in a desperate attempt to make it sound less ****. It will never sound good that way, however.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i agrre they are hard to record , but it takes alot of time and patience to learn it , once you get used to it it gets easier .

see my other post here .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57433870#post57433870


im no pro , and i cant hear above 11 k , but i get a usable drum sound in my box room using good gear and a treated room .

PaulBrewer

If the guy can play and can tune the kit (really tune it, not just high pitch to low pitch across toms) then it's almost impossible not to record well.

Dunno about that, Chief, the room always plays a big part and even if that is sorted uneducated mic placement and eq could easily create a mess.

Perhaps what StudioRat meant was HE finds it easy. And with more than one Number 1 album to his credit why shouldn't he?

If you see the drummer using tape and bog roll on the skins, it's a sure sign he doesn't know how to tune it and is trying to dampen the overtones out of it in a desperate attempt to make it sound less ****. It will never sound good that way, however.

Dunno about that either, Chief!

If you refer to

http://www.recordproduction.com/ken-scott-drum-recording.html

You'll see 3 World Renowned Drummers (and a world renowned engineer in a world renowned studio!) all using damping to some extent.

Einstein

Drums can be tricky to record, alas, not impossible.
There is no doubt that if u put a cabbage in front of a mic...it will still sound like a cabbage...it annoys me when people insist on bringin their own kits to the studio, and they turn up with something thats held together with chewing gum and factory skins from 8 years ago saying "ah man I love the sound".

Let me just say, that sound is 99% of the time...pure poo...

What problems u havin dude? this is a huge subject!

Doctor J

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Dunno about that, Chief, the room always plays a big part and even if that is sorted uneducated mic placement and eq could easily create a mess.

Let's just say it takes a lot of effort to make a balls of it, it's harder to **** it up than it is to get a decent result if the kit is tuned, chief. One would assume we're talking about an engineer who has put mics on a kit before, what with him being the engineer and all, rather than a punter who wandered in off the street to mic up the kit.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Perhaps what StudioRat meant was HE finds it easy. And with more than one Number 1 album to his credit why shouldn't he?

Dunno about that, chief. Surely he would have said "it will be a doddle for me" if he was only referring to his own abilities, no?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Dunno about that either, Chief!

If you refer to

http://www.recordproduction.com/ken-scott-drum-recording.html

You'll see 3 World Renowned Drummers (and a world renowned engineer in a world renowned studio!) all using damping to some extent.

Well let's put it this way, chief, of all the drummers I've recorded only two could tune their kits well and I've met a hell of a lot of drummers with bog roll and gaffa tape on their skins. In my experience, bog roll damping is generally the resort of the guys who can't tune. If a guy shows up at your studio with bog roll on the skins it's far more likely he can't tune it rather than him being world class, no?

PaulBrewer

There's an awful lot of presumption there, my friend.

I take your point about the likelihood of a world renowned drummer popping around ok!

Will you accept mine, that damping can be part of a good drum sound?

I know the StudioRat a long time now, he'd be far too modest to make such a statement!!

Doctor J

I accept your point, of course, but you're missing mine.

progsound

PaulBrewer wrote: »

damping can be part of a good drum sound?

Agreed. If your not already using it try using moongel on your skins next time its a life saver.

(Having a great sounding well tuned kit with fresh skins is also paramount)

PaulBrewer

progsound wrote: »

Agreed. If your not already using it try using moongel on your skins next time its a life saver.

(Having a great sounding well tuned kit with fresh skins is also paramount)

Yes, good stuff. I like to chew on a bit of it while waiting for the singer to arrive ....

studiorat

Well it's great to be so popular this early in the day!
Of course it all depends on what you call a good drum sound.
I like to be able to actually hear the detail of the kit. Not always possible in a dense mix.

If the drums are played in time and with good dynamics they will of course sound better (that's my contribution to the debate), fixing the drum timing on a kit shows you that.

As for damping sometimes a little here and there is no bad thing, it speeds the recording process a little. Just a bit though, some drums kits are harder to tune than others.

You can always adjust the room for the kit, I'd be a great man for moving duvets around the room for different songs in an album session. Always tune the kit to suit the song ya see? Moving the kit if necessary.
I'll try to add more or less damping in the room depending on how full or dry the kit should sound in the track. It goes without saying that a bad sounding room won't help, that goes for recording anything, from reading the news to recording an orchestra!

What works for me would be: (aplo's for stating the obvious)
1. Player - Good attitude, Good technical ability, timing, dynamics.
2. Suitability of the musical arrangement.
3. The kit, no squeaks, new drum heads, decent sounding cymbals.
4. The room, no rattles or weird resonances. Adjustable reflection times (within reason), ability to adjust frequency of reflections (reverb). Screens are the job here. Even in a tiny room this is possible.
5. The Microphone technique, based around a close sounding mic setup or based around an ambient set-up.
6. Good use of EQ and Compression. And in that order.
7. The mood of the listener.

So I guess my contribution is pretty low on the list

Personally, I think about drum timbre in terms of pitch, attack, decay, sustain and release. Think about a drum hit as having four syllables of you like.
I'll identify what parameter or combination of those in the sound I dislike and work out a way getting right combination of those parameters.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

I'd be a great man for moving duvets around the room

I heard that , ok ...

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

Personally, I think about drum timbre in terms of pitch, attack, decay, sustain and release. Think about a drum hit as having four syllables of you like.

Well put, I've never heard it described like that before .... However a lot of drummers are monosyllabic ..;) Too much damping?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

I agree with this :
the drummer and the tuning / quality of the kit and cymbals are 90 % of the drum sound .

I have been playing drums for over 25 years and the one thing I have noticed between my
generation of drummers and the youngsters these days
is that alot of them do not hit the drums hard enough
a drum ( within the boundarys of musical dynamics / taste ) has a sweet spot of required stroke to make it sing properly
and its alot more aggressive than alot of people think.

hit it too hard and it does choke , but you have to hit them hard to make them sing and project.
( including the kick - I notice alot of players cannot make a kick punch or sing enough these days )

also the kit should be played in this decsending order of aggression / volume :

1/ toms - very hard
2/ kick - hard
3/ snare - hard
4 / ride = medium - even less if its a rock ride
5/ crashes = enough to make them rock back and forth once / twice
6/ hats - caress rather than strike.

this balnces the kit in terms of levels in the overheads and overall drum sound.

then the tuning , the heads , the edges of the shells and any damping come in to play .
nothing wrong with damping - but its best to start with a livley drum and dampen
it than a dead drum you cannot liven up.

after that , the room and the mic placement should just capture what already exists.

and one more thing - the way the drummer holds the sticks and the wood in the sticks
affects the drum sound in an audible way.

a loose grip allows the stick to resonate , and this tranfers as a bigger open sound.
maple sticks are darker sounding than hickory or oak
and plastic tips should only be used in dark or dull situations

studiorat

^^^
heap good advice.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

I agree with this :
the drummer and the tuning / quality of the kit and cymbals are 90 % of the drum sound .

I have been playing drums for over 25 years and the one thing I have noticed between my
generation of drummers and the youngsters these days
is that alot of them do not hit the drums hard enough
a drum ( within the boundarys of musical dynamics / taste ) has a sweet spot of required stroke to make it sing properly
and its alot more aggressive than alot of people think.

hit it too hard and it does choke , but you have to hit them hard to make them sing and project.
( including the kick - I notice alot of players cannot make a kick punch or sing enough these days )

also the kit should be played in this decsending order of aggression / volume :

1/ toms - very hard
2/ kick - hard
3/ snare - hard
4 / ride = medium - even less if its a rock ride
5/ crashes = enough to make them rock back and forth once / twice
6/ hats - caress rather than strike.

this balnces the kit in terms of levels in the overheads and overall drum sound.

then the tuning , the heads , the edges of the shells and any damping come in to play .
nothing wrong with damping - but its best to start with a livley drum and dampen
it than a dead drum you cannot liven up.

after that , the room and the mic placement should just capture what already exists.

and one more thing - the way the drummer holds the sticks and the wood in the sticks
affects the drum sound in an audible way.

a loose grip allows the stick to resonate , and this tranfers as a bigger open sound.
maple sticks are darker sounding than hickory or oak
and plastic tips should only be used in dark or dull situations

Good post! Also leaving your snare sitting on the stand as opposed to being clamped ....

PaulBrewer

One thing I've noticed about good country drummers ( remember Danny, Studiorat?) is the mixing of the drums that they do.

As described by DaDumTish playing the hats quieter while pounding the kick /snare makes for more music ...

Especially when you get into Room Mics ....

Einstein

Telepaul, had a listen to the file you posted on the other link...
What technique did u use? Sounds like the mic's are on the opposite sides of the room?
Tell us more!

TelePaul

Einstein wrote: »

Telepaul, had a listen to the file you posted on the other link...
What technique did u use? Sounds like the mic's are on the opposite sides of the room?
Tell us more!

Uhmm I just hard panned the OHs...there are some phase issues going on but I've tried a new method - the recorderman method - and messed with the tuning...here's a new link:

http://www.box.net/shared/xz81nf3zt8

tweeky

studiorat wrote: »

What works for me would be: (aplo's for stating the obvious)
1. Player - Good attitude, Good technical ability, timing, dynamics.
2. Suitability of the musical arrangement.
3. The kit, no squeaks, new drum heads, decent sounding cymbals.
4. The room, no rattles or weird resonances. Adjustable reflection times (within reason), ability to adjust frequency of reflections (reverb). Screens are the job here. Even in a tiny room this is possible.
5. The Microphone technique, based around a close sounding mic setup or based around an ambient set-up.
6. Good use of EQ and Compression. And in that order.
7. The mood of the listener.

Points 2 to 7 are easier to sort out than the elusive easter bunny that is point 1, sacking/replacing is an option but sometimes upsets the band.

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

sacking/replacing is an option but sometimes upsets the band.

Sometimes, you say? Delicately put!!

Any word on the 15th?