Non Qualifying Scores

DubGF

Hi everyone,

I am a member of a parkalnd course in Dublin which was badly affected by the wet weather this year. Nearly every comp I played in, there was placing everywhere in play.

My question is this, in order to qualify for inter club competitons next year, I believe I need to have 4 qualifying cards submitted (correct me if this is wrong). I have about 5 cards in this year, but only 2 so far have been played with no placing in play. I am praying for good weather over the coming months....

A mate has told me the GUI may change this rules as there are a number of members/clubs in the same boat.

Has anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks,
Gary

WaldenByThoreua

Hopefully because I only have 3 cards in!

ShriekingSheet

You are correct in regards to the 4 qualifying scores and yes, the GUI will rule you out of interclub because of this.

My advice would be to get talking to your team coordinator or whoever on the committee has most involvment in teams because I take it that the bulk of your club members are shy of 4 cards meaning you could barely field teams in anything?
A club official could drop a call to the GUI, explain the situation and see what they make of it.

To be fair, the logic is that your lads have been playing/practicing all season, as the rest of our clubs, but 99% of other clubs have been cutting players. Naturally, your guys have improved without coming down the h'caps and it would be an advantage eg: a guy still eligible for Junior Cup that might have dropped to 4 at any other club.

I'd get on to the GUI asap because they could well take a strict stance, in which case I'd recommend you catch 2 open singles in other clubs before the bad weather comes back.

They could also just give you an exemption which I don't think many would have a problem with.

PhilipMarlowe

Ask your handicap secretary or competition secretary about this...

It is possible now that they can run a 9 hole qualifying competition, a neutral 18 points is added to your score for the imaginary back 9 and your handicap may be adjusted on this.
Also, you can declare that a round you are about to play will be a competition even if it's just you and your friend... this has to be OK'ed with the club first - they may have a policy for or against it, and if they allow it there will be limits...
These 'rules' were brought in this year I think to facilitate people who don't get opportunities to play in regular weekend competitions but like I said, you need to discuss it with the officials at your club.
I presume these would be qualifying competitions for handicap but you'd also need to check if they qualify you for inter-club teams. Best contact the GUI for this info.

http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=227

9 Hole Scores
Evidence from golf clubs indicates that a significant number of Members, due to increasing demands in their working and family life for example, are unable to play 18 hole Qualifying Competitions frequently enough to establish and maintain a handicap representative of their potential ability.
Consequently, in response to the changing needs of the game and the Members of our Affiliated Clubs, Qualifying Competitions over Nine-Holes have been introduced into the UHS to provide additional opportunities for the return of Qualifying Scores.
It is envisaged that Nine-Hole Qualifying Competitions will be particularly attractive to clubs and their Members in summer evenings and in the restricted daylight hours of winter weekends. Nine-Hole competitions could also be the means by which a greater number of senior golfers are encouraged to make returns for handicap purposes.
The format for Nine-Hole Qualifying Competitions is Stableford with a ‘neutral’ 18 points for the nine unplayed holes being added to the Nine-Hole Stableford score.
As there is no desire to change the traditional way in which competitive golf is played i.e. over 18 holes, the number of Nine-Hole competitions is restricted.

http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=226

Supplementary Scores
The UHS is based on the expectation that every player will return a sufficient number of scores to provide reasonable evidence of his current ability. To operate in the intended manner, the UHS requires information i.e. the return of Qualifying Scores to produce handicaps that reasonably reflect current ability.
Although golf club Committees and administrators may consider that in the course of a playing season they organise an adequate number of competitions to provide ample opportunity for Members to participate, investigation has confirmed that a substantial number of Members do not return sufficient scores in the period between Annual Reviews to maintain a handicap that reasonably reflects their current ability. This may in part be due to:
Work or family commitments preventing participation in competitions.
Difficulty in obtaining an acceptable starting time on competition days in clubs with a large playing membership.
A declining desire to play regular competitive golf.
Supplementary Scores have been introduced to provide players in the above situations and the like an alternative format in which to submit scores for handicap purposes and augment the often sparse information derived from competition play. The intent is to encourage the provision of more evidence of playing ability over a wider range of players and so make handicapping more equitable and golf under handicap conditions more meaningful for all concerned.

PhilipMarlowe

Also, placing alone on the fairway doesn't make the competition non-qualifying... It's when you have lift-clean-drop in the rough that they become non-qualifying.
Your club could allow relief from an embedded ball on certain holes and still remain qualifying but it can't be all through the course.

Paulusmaximus

I would think the GUI may make an exception to the rule this year and rounds played where placing everywhere is in operation is counted.

I know the summer was bad but the committee i'm sure would still have had the opportunity on most occasions to have placing on fairways only and play as it lies in the rough. Every singles competition should really be a counting event and if conditions are really bad CSS will reflect this. nd anyway, you shouldn't be hitting the ball into the rough!

Also, out of interest how many counting roundas have people played this year? I've 18.

Mister Sifter

It's easy to complain about bad weather and all that but from what i remember, April through to the end of July was pretty good. It was only August that was really bad, and September has been poor enough but playable.

Don't mean to sound harsh, but if you haven't been able to get 3-4 qualifying rounds in then that's your own fault. There are numerous competitions on every day of the year during the season.

Look up your record on Golfnet and it will tell you how many qualifying comps you've played in.

I've had 21 qualifying scores - also playing out of a parkland course in Dublin. 9 .1s back, 7 rounds better than the sss and the rest in the buffer zone with no change. Cut 1.6 overall (with a few more -0.1s to come in the next month too hopefully!!).

ShriekingSheet

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

I would think the GUI may make an exception to the rule this year and rounds played where placing everywhere is in operation is counted.

I know the summer was bad but the committee i'm sure would still have had the opportunity on most occasions to have placing on fairways only and play as it lies in the rough. Every singles competition should really be a counting event and if conditions are really bad CSS will reflect this. nd anyway, you shouldn't be hitting the ball into the rough!

Also, out of interest how many counting roundas have people played this year? I've 18.

Yeah Paul, within reason, I'd agree. A bit of muck on the ball is no big deal and rewarding people who hit the fairway with placing is no bad thing either.


I've played 30 qualifying rounds this year.
12 .1s back.
7 in the buffer with no change.
11 rounds better than CSS getting cut a total of 4.6

PhilipMarlowe

Ye are being a bit harsh guys because people will often have circumstances that don't allow them to play so many times in the season... whether it is a strict employment and maybe family concerns on the weekend.... illness or study... whatever.
I've had a busy year off the course and have maybe 10 qualifying rounds but I'm sure there are people out there that couldn't play when the weather was ok and maybe got the chance to play but the weather was crap.
That said, if you are thinking of inter-club next year, needing to have 4 qualifying cards isn't an excessive burden. As lads said, find an open day at an away venue... I'm sure some links courses like Rosslare would have qualifying competitions and welcome visitors all year round so still plenty of opportunity out there.

Mister Sifter

Licksy wrote: »

Ye are being a bit harsh guys because people will often have circumstances that don't allow them to play so many times in the season... whether it is a strict employment and maybe family concerns on the weekend.... illness or study... whatever.
I've had a busy year off the course and have maybe 10 qualifying rounds but I'm sure there are people out there that couldn't play when the weather was ok and maybe got the chance to play but the weather was crap.

Well that's fair enough, but they shouldn't then complain when they're not eligible for team comps next year. I'm sure all of us could say we've been busy, but the fact is that the season is 6-7 months long so if you can't get the required number of cards in during that time then you don't deserve to be playing for the club teams. There are plenty of players out there who have got their cards in and deserve to be in the teams instead.

GreeBo

I agree, I have 15 qualifying competitions a number of reduction only ones and thats all from just playing on Saturdays. I hardly think its impossible to get 4 in a year. If you are not in a position to get 4 then you are probably not in a position to play in team events anyway.

WaldenByThoreua

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Well that's fair enough, but they shouldn't then complain when they're not eligible for team comps next year. I'm sure all of us could say we've been busy, but the fact is that the season is 6-7 months long so if you can't get the required number of cards in during that time then you don't deserve to be playing for the club teams. There are plenty of players out there who have got their cards in and deserve to be in the teams instead.

Im taking no sides here, just showing my situation for sake of argument.

Finished the Leaving in last week of June. Took a week off. Went to Prague for 2 weeks.

Now middle of July...a good few of my planned events got rained off and I was unable to play and I wasn't in a position to find more (I don't have a car). Played in 3 qualifying events in August...nearly there....a month later none of them have come through to golfnet(long story they couldnt be found and ''only cards wuld do for proof'')....played 3 more in the last 2 weeks and now need one more in the next week and I have college to start and cant play in men's club comp's (club rules). Trying to find people to play in Open Singles on a random day is proving hard.

Im a pretty low handicapper who's been playing Barton Shield/Senior Cup since I was 14. Its not a nice situation to be in at this stage in the year!!

WaldenByThoreua

Sorry that was an unintentional quoting of Graeme in my last post!

Paulusmaximus

limerickmunster wrote: »

Im taking no sides here, just showing my situation for sake of argument.

Finished the Leaving in last week of June. Took a week off. Went to Prague for 2 weeks.

Now middle of July...a good few of my planned events got rained off and I was unable to play and I wasn't in a position to find more (I don't have a car). Played in 3 qualifying events in August...nearly there....a month later none of them have come through to golfnet(long story they couldnt be found and ''only cards wuld do for proof'')....played 3 more in the last 2 weeks and now need one more in the next week and I have college to start and cant play in men's club comp's (club rules). Trying to find people to play in Open Singles on a random day is proving hard.

Im a pretty low handicapper who's been playing Barton Shield/Senior Cup since I was 14. Its not a nice situation to be in at this stage in the year!!

Barton shield and Senior Cup do not have the rule of having to return 4 qualifying cards in the previous year so irrespective of the number of rounds you have played or not played you will be eligible for Senior Cup and Shield next year.

stringy

no excuse for not getting three cards in. One singles every two months shouldn't be difficult regardless of weather, work, family, illness, holidays

13 qualifying singles competitions and I'm second in golfer of the year should've played more!
3 .1s
4 h/cap cuts

ShriekingSheet

limerickmunster wrote: »

Im a pretty low handicapper who's been playing Barton Shield/Senior Cup since I was 14. Its not a nice situation to be in at this stage in the year!!

I find it amazing that your club have not offered you some kind of allowance to play in men's comps - even in a capacity where you can't take first prize. Not ideal but it'd be something.

I think you should approach the committee/Captain and state your case regarding qualifying scores becuase you will need them for Barton Cup, if not the other two.

Qualifying scores aside, I think you you should raise the issue. It's an understandable rule when time-sheets fill fast and many juniors are inexperienced golfers. But in a case where a junior golfer has shown promise and enough dedication to become one of the best golfers in the club, if you approach it correctly the club should surely sort you out.

It totally depends on the personalities involved but when I had any issues like this as a junior (and I had a few) I'd begin with a quiet word with the Captain - introduce myself, logically and gentley explain the importance of home club golf to me and mentioning past club representation and a desire to do well for the club in the future.
Some captains might take immediate action - some won't. In that case I'd follow up with an overly polite letter to the comittee stating the situation.

WaldenByThoreua

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I find it amazing that your club have not offered you some kind of allowance to play in men's comps - even in a capacity where you can't take first prize. Not ideal but it'd be something.

I think you should approach the committee/Captain and state your case regarding qualifying scores becuase you will need them for Barton Cup, if not the other two.

Qualifying scores aside, I think you you should raise the issue. It's an understandable rule when time-sheets fill fast and many juniors are inexperienced golfers. But in a case where a junior golfer has shown promise and enough dedication to become one of the best golfers in the club, if you approach it correctly the club should surely sort you out.

It totally depends on the personalities involved but when I had any issues like this as a junior (and I had a few) I'd begin with a quiet word with the Captain - introduce myself, logically and gentley explain the importance of home club golf to me and mentioning past club representation and a desire to do well for the club in the future.
Some captains might take immediate action - some won't. In that case I'd follow up with an overly polite letter to the comittee stating the situation.

Actually I'm going up to the club tonight to see if I can play in the vice captains prize just for the sake of handing in a card! First time I'll ever have done that!

We actually don't have Barton cup down here but I know what you mean about them needing me, however I should state that I joined another golf club about 2 years ago and my other club didn't take kindly to that and I actually represented no-one last year!

I should be alright to squeeze in a card somewhere but Im not too sure who Ill be playing with next year or if Ill be playing at all!....(ah, good ol' golf club politics!).....

Ya that has been an ugly facet of me and my peers junior years. Appeals to let be play on our own without finding an adult were'nt looked upon too kindly and to be honest not too many adults want to play with juniors....I'm in no way blaming adults by the way...not too sure I'd like my regular 3ball being split because some junior I don't know wants to squeeze in with us,if I was an adult!

Everything you said is a factor of any juniors education in Ireland though! Many valid points!

WaldenByThoreua

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

Barton shield and Senior Cup do not have the rule of having to return 4 qualifying cards in the previous year so irrespective of the number of rounds you have played or not played you will be eligible for Senior Cup and Shield next year.

Excellent! I had suspected that but you have confirmed it!
Thanks!

DubGF

Thanks for all the replies lads...

I have to disagree with some of the comments about not getting cards in, I have played a lot of golf this year, including singles match play, pierce purcell (including practice rounds), 9 hole mid week comps, scrambles, friendly games in other courses etc. The time I did go and play singles comps the weather ruined the day and forced placings everywhere, a medal was even cancelled due to the bad weather...

Will be out in the club Sunday morning so I will find out if there will be any dispensation...

Thanks again,
Gary

Niall09

I've played 35 qualifying comps this year, 15 .1's Got cut 8 times (3.9 shots). So been reduced 2.4 shots.

8.1 - 5.8

Sionnachster

To even ask this is going to have many of you giving it a bit of this :rolleyes:, with a touch of :eek: but there are always a few out there willing to impart wisdom...

Basically, what are you on about? I remember teams were picked via team captain picks. Has that changed? This suggests there are eligibility issues from the previous year?? So if you join a club in January 2009, you need to compete in 'X' amount of full competitions to progress in team events in 2010?

It's been maybe a decade sine I was really active in golf as a junior and now there are online handicap systems as opposed to a dodgy printout on the club board and!! All improvements I might add but without this forum I'd be consigned to history!!

PhilipMarlowe

Yes, you have to play at least 4 'proper' competitions in your home club this year before you can represent your club in a match against another club next year. That way your handicap has had a reasonable chance of being adjusted so that you will be playing off a fair allowance.

WaldenByThoreua

Licksy wrote: »

Yes, you have to play at least 4 'proper' competitions in your home club this year before you can represent your club in a match against another club next year. That way your handicap has had a reasonable chance of being adjusted so that you will be playing off a fair allowance.

Does it have to be home club?

And is the 4 card rule only for cups and shields?

Would you lose you handicap if you did not hand in 4 cards the previous year?

PhilipMarlowe

If there is a specific competition in mind, do a search for it under the tournament conditions on the GUI site... link to 2.9mb pdf of 2008 conditions

In order to be eligible to compete in the Junior Cup,
Jimmy Bruen Shield and Pierce Purcell Shield, a player
shall have, in the calendar year prior to the event, returned
a minimum of four returns in qualifying competitions
(Supplementary Scores are not included) all of which
must be recorded on the handicap records of the player’s
home club on or before 31st December in the calendar
year prior to the event.
Note: If a player changes his club during the previous
calendar year, it is his responsibility to produce evidence
of having competed in a minimum of four Qualifying
Competitions.

As regards losing your handicap, I though that this was to be the case now with a rule that was brought in for 2008, but I'd say the non-qualifying aspect of the competitions wouldn't matter here because the handicap committee would still have enough information from those scores to do a review?

WaldenByThoreua

Licksy wrote: »

If there is a specific competition in mind, do a search for it under the tournament conditions on the GUI site... link to 2.9mb pdf of 2008 conditions



As regards losing your handicap, I though that this was to be the case now with a rule that was brought in for 2008, but I'd say the non-qualifying aspect of the competitions wouldn't matter here because the handicap committee would still have enough information from those scores to do a review?

Ok, just so I understand what your saying: Even if you didn't get 4 in, they would use the cards you submitted (be it 1,2 or 3) to adjust your H'cap or am I interpreting that wrong?

Note to self: FIND ONE MORE QUALIFYING COMPETITION!!!

PhilipMarlowe

Two separate questions.
For the inter-club competitions, it seems to be a strict GUI condition that you have to have 4 cards from Qualifying competitions... It says they have to be recorded in your home club records so not necessarily played at home, just recorded on computer I guess.
It also says that supplementary scores don't count for this which I thought they might... I discussed them in my first post above.

The losing your handicap bit is a separate question. I don't know the details but I think if you don't play a certain number of rounds per year (at your home course), your handicap may lapse and you will have to submit 3 cards again to get a 'new' handicap. I would presume though that this wouldn't be affected by whether the cards you handed in were in qualifying competitions or not?

WaldenByThoreua

Licksy wrote: »

Two separate questions.
For the inter-club competitions, it seems to be a strict GUI condition that you have to have 4 cards from Qualifying competitions... It says they have to be recorded in your home club records so not necessarily played at home, just recorded on computer I guess.
It also says that supplementary scores don't count for this which I thought they might... I discussed them in my first post above.

The losing your handicap bit is a separate question. I don't know the details but I think if you don't play a certain number of rounds per year (at your home course), your handicap may lapse and you will have to submit 3 cards again to get a 'new' handicap. I would presume though that this wouldn't be affected by whether the cards you handed in were in qualifying competitions or not?

Cheers, that explains a lot! It seems like it may be down to the discretion of the Committee whether your H'Cap will lapse in many cases?