Dads Dogs

slemons

My da has 2 dogs on his farm.
They're kept inside 2 big sheds usually on a 20foot chain. He's at the farm 2x a day every day and lets them out and feeds them well.
He doenst clean their area at all really, or do much else for them.

Now recently he got an anonymous hand written note on the gate, saying 'Animal Cruelty - dogs'.

Now i was never a fan of the way he treats the dogs, but i think cruelty is a step too far.

He never hits them or hurts them, and they're fed well with scraps from dinner at home.

He just said himself that most dogs are locked up in small kennels 24 hours a day so 20 foot of chain in a big shed is relative freedom.

what do you think?

What can this mystery do-gooder do? Call the authorities?

Needless to say the ol fells is distraught with this, as he never mishandled an animal in 50 years

Top Dog

I would consider keeping any dog on a chain to be cruel - so someone saying cruelty would be accurate in my eyes.

Also, brief interaction with them twice a day would again be cruel to me. Dogs are pack animals, they need to be around their pack (which is typically a family). To keep them in relative isolation like this is restricting their enjoyment of life. Would you not think it cruel if your father kept you in your bedroom all day and the only time you saw anything else was for breakfast and dinner? Its the same thing really.

Cruelty is more than just hitting or kicking an animal. Restricting its life by keeping it chained up and in a kennel practically all day is cruel. Going on what you've posted above then I'd have to say yes, it is cruelty to the dogs.

As for what the person who left the note can do - they can report your father for cruelty to animals which could result in investigators calling to check out the conditions in which the dogs are kept, and if they agree that its cruelty then they have every right to take the animals and also have your father up in court.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but sadly sometimes the truth hurts.

michelleans

slemons wrote: »

.....


He doenst clean their area at all really, or do much else for them.

.....

This would also mean that they are living in their own filth and excrement in that shed?

So why does he have these dogs if he does nothing for them and never spends any time with them?

I have to agree totally with Rob

RALL!

have to agree with Rob and Michelle.
It is cruelty!

The shed should be cleaned at least every other day!

kerrysgold

Why does he keep the dogs there? It is cruel! you may not like to accept it, but that's what it is.

what do the dogs do for say the other 23 hours a day? sit in a shed probably in their own filth? They have no company, nothing to do or keep them occupied, never taken out for walks etc? and fed "scraps from the dinner" that's hardly a proper diet.

How would you like to sit in a room all day and all night and only be let out for a few mins to go to the bathroom and eat something? You'd probably go mad.

Unfortunately you're father probably can't have the dogs seized as the law only requires a dog to be provided with food, water and shelter. It fails to take into account the other need of a dog such as not being kept chained up in a shed in it's own filth with no proper exersize or diet.....

I hope you're father either a) brings the dogs back home with him and starts looking after them properly (i.e. take them for a walk every day and buy them proper dog food) or surrender them to an animal shelter where they can be found a proper home.

an American website but still, good info about why you shouldn't keep a dog chained up http://www.unchainyourdog.org

slemons

Thanks guys, I told him myself before i posted here that i thought it wasnt right.
He got thick with me then. And sulked.

He definitely wont be cleaning the shed regularly. He doesnt even wash himself every other day!

Ok so, what to do?
He'd hate to have them put down, and so would i.

Thanks for the link, maybe a big fenced area?

Glowing

Can you not bring them into the house?

jenpup

slemons wrote: »

Ok so, what to do?
He'd hate to have them put down, and so would i.

Em why would he need to have them put down?

If he can't look after them they should be rehomed and not put down!

Beth

Like Glowing suggested, bring them inside, have them live with the family and get daily interaction. Start looking after them properly - walks, play, training, proper diet, somewhere warm and clean to sleep and rest.

If he cant/isnt willing to do that, there's still no reason to put them down. There's a rehoming thread up the top of this forum, advertise them there for rehoming, or contact your local rescue and see will they take them.

Its not the dogs fault they're not being looked after as a dog should be, so why should they pay for it with their life's?

kerrysgold

the dogs shouldn't be put down, why should they be killed for something that isn't their fault?

he should either start treating them as proper pets or find good homes for them. you could "advertise" them on http://www.irishanimals.ie or http://petsireland.invisionzone.com or contact your local SPCA or try a private rescue to see if any could help by taking in one or both dogs.

If he decides to find them homes, don't take them to the pound as they would probably be put down straight away.

lostinnappies

ISPCA, look for certain things when determining if its cruelty where abuse is not involved. Shelter is one, making sure they have suffencient (waterproof) shelter. Food and water, dogs must have acess to water at all times and be fed correct amount on a good quality diet. Living conditions, excrement must be picked up and the living area must be habitable. Social interaction, dogs must have social interaction on a daily basis for more then an hour each day (exeptions are made for working dogs but this would entail them actually working with the owner).

I think you can determine from what is written above that your dad is not providing proper care. This so called "do gooder" can call the ispca which would result in a visit to inspect the dogs conditions. If the conditions are severe enough the dogs will be taken away and your father put on charges for cruelty to animals ... although it doesnt sound like it. More likley they will give him a list of things he needs to do to improve living conditions and will be randomly inspected to ensure he is complying with them.

ValerieR

The dogs are used to being outside and probably would find it difficult to adapt indoors. I don't agree with them being kept on a chain either as I think it is cruel.
Maybe you could endeavour to look after them like taking them out for walks, play with them, and clean their area every other day. I am sure they would be delighted with much more human interaction.
ValerieR

helimachoptor

michelleans wrote: »

This would also mean that they are living in their own filth and excrement in that shed?

So why does he have these dogs if he does nothing for them and never spends any time with them?

I have to agree totally with Rob

This is unacceptable! I had a GSD, my garden is about 20 foot wide and about 60 foot long, I'm out with the power house every second day and the shovel every day cleaning it!

Vel

I'm curious to know why he has the dogs in the first place??

mary123

Also how are they been fed well when u say they are been fed scraps from the dinner table.

RALL!

If your father isn't going to start looking after them properly you may have to consider rehoming them.

slemons

we dont live at the farm, they're mainly guard dogs to bark if anyone stops...
I'll talk to him at the w'end and sort something.
Thanks for the help...

lightening

Your in an awkward position there Slemons. Fair play to you for bringing it up here! Seems like your dads, like a lot of dads are living in another era when it comes to some issues. Sometimes, as our folks get older its our turn to sit them down and have a chat with them!! You obviously know the situation isn't right with the dogs. Best of luck, try not let it turn in to a row.

Honey-ec

slemons wrote: »

we dont live at the farm, they're mainly guard dogs to bark if anyone stops...
I'll talk to him at the w'end and sort something.
Thanks for the help...

And who's there to hear them barking???

Beth

slemons wrote: »

we dont live at the farm, they're mainly guard

Chained dogs will not usually protect a property. They'll only protect what they can reach on the chain, as they consider that bit of space to only be their territory.

Chained dogs have been found to bark a lot too, out of boredom - so much so that it becomes commonplace and gets ignored regularly.

From Here
BACKYARD DOGS MAKE LOUSY GUARD DOGS. As a dog becomes naturally protective of where he lives (his territory or turf), he will only defend the place he lives in. If he is never allowed in the house, then the house will not become a place to protect. Most people keep their valuables inside their houses, so why wouldn't you want your dog to protect the inside of your house? Unless allowed to live inside, your dog will not develop that sense of territory. He will not sound the alarm when someone tries to invade your house. It is not uncommon to hear stories of families being robbed while their backyard dog snoozed through the whole episode.

While they're on about being in the house in the paragraph, the same applies for any territory the dog cant reach if its chained.

And,

If I'm a crook and your dog is out, your fence protects ME, not your possessions or your dog. If I just open the gate, 9 out of 10 dogs will run off! I can safely shoot, stab, spear, poison, snare, strangle them, or dart through the fence and you just lost your dog AND everything I steal!

If he's tied up and I keep out of reach, he's useless. He'll bark, but outside dogs bark so much, they're usually ignored. But let a dog hit the other side of a door or window I'm breaking into, and I'm GONE! I can't hurt the dog until he can hurt me, and nothing you own is worth my arm. Deterrence is effective protection.

Good luck talking with your dad. I hope ye can sort something out

Vel

Yes, good luck and I hope it all works out. If your dad does decide to give the dogs up, please try to contact a reputable rescue who could help with rehoming them, rather than giving them to the pound or to any tom, dick or harry

IrishHomer

I live and work in rural Ireland and i notice the very same circumstances when i visit rural farms as part of my job.

I saw a poor dog yesterday chained and locked inside an old 30yr old van. The van looked to be stationary for 20yrs and the poor dog looked like he has not left the van for all of his life.

From my experience this seems to be an accepted practise by some farmers.

kerrysgold

It's sickening and does seem to be common practice alright. A farmer I know of used to keep his dogs locked in a shed all the time. Another idiot I know of used to keep a dog in a pitch black shed. SPCA wouldn't do anything in either situation. I think it's actually worse than a dog having no shelter.

slemons

well i said it to him, and he said he spoke to the local guard. The guard said the dog wasnt being treated cruely and that he was fine.
The people who stuck their nose in, were wrong.

I then said to him that his treatment of the dogs isnt illegal, but definitely not how to treat a dog. He thinks that because lots of other dogs are treated way worse than ours, that his way is ok.
This is his constant way of thinking.
I mentioned about cleaning it every day. He said 'go over now and you could eat your dinner off their floor'. Thats the only time their area will be cleaned in the next few years.
The dogs themsleves tend to either poo in the corner, or wait til he lets them out, so it is usually fairly clean. Its just a concrete floor

This is an argument my sister had with my dad years ago, and nothing really came of it then either. I cant see it happening now either.
I could just tell him to rehome them, but i dont want to force him to do it.

luckat

What age is your father, Slemons? If he's not cleaning himself, and he's not cleaning up after the dogs, this is a little worrying.

The guard's personal opinion on whether it's animal cruelty or not isn't going to help if anyone brings a prosecution against your father.

More to the point, though, it's a pity he's depriving himself of the pleasure of having a couple of dogs to bring for walks and enjoy time with. If there's a strong fence and gate around the place so they can't get out and roam onto others' farms, they'll be better guardians if they feel more part of the family.

He can get good dog food in the co-op.

I'm baffled by this sense that some people have that the world out there is full of enemies, who will rush in to kill and rob them if they don't have savage guardians on show.

IrishHomer

Its a pity this country couldn't follow Switzerland (i think it's Switzerland).

I saw recently on tv that in Switzerland you have to get a license to keep a dog and this is very strict. But here is the best part: in order to obtain a license to keep a dog you must sit a 2 hour written exam and there is also some kind of practical exam too!

Pity the whole of EU wouldn't do same.

HOBO 83

If the dogs are chained up all the time and the only socializing they get is with your dad droping down twice a day, they may not take well to others, so i would advise that you and maybe a couple of your friends try to get down to them as oftenas you can and get the dogs used to others, if they are to be rehomed i think they would adapt much faster this way.
The extra social activity would do the dogs no harm either way.

kerrysgold

Maybe have a word with the Guard? He might listen to somebody in "authority" it seems he takes the Guards opinion seriously.

In the meantime, is there anything you could do? Could YOU take them for a walk each day and buy them some things? like proper bedding, decent food, fence in an area outside the shed so they can be free to come in and out rather than tied up. Are they in the same shed or are they in separate sheds? i.e. can the dogs interact or are they separated.

This is no life for those dogs at the moment.

BlackCat2008

For gods sake what if the dogs are attacked by a pack of dogs not like they can run away to save themselfs and what if your father drops something go's home and one of them gets hold of it, who's there to stop them choking or rush them to the vet, If they are sleeping on a concreate floor I bet if you look close enough they are covered in welts and very stiff when they get up and if there chained whats to say someone hasn't befriended them and is on the farm when ever they want, yes if the spca see they are not looked after proberly they can have the dog or crueliy officer remove them and prosacute.

I know how you feel I've been at my dad for years not to breed his jackie but to late she's expecting collie's soon and he'll be stuck in hospital when she has them he didn't want to neuter her until see had a litter so she won't end up with a pot belly and she wouldn't go near another jackie and she kept getting out, his girlfriend and him see no problem in giving her liver while she in pregenant as long as it's cooked, liver is not good for pregenant animals but she loves it, they have her soiled rotten and she rulers the house but in all the wrong ways it's hard to change them.

Try to talk to him about maybe bring them to the house when it's breakfast and returning them after dinner he may get se to them around the house and start keeping them there more often with a bit of luck.

slemons

He is going to do absolutely nothing with the dogs. Id have to physically remove them, which im not going to do as its illegal.
He's not committing any crime so there's not much more i can do.
He wont rehome them.
My sister had the same argument with him over the course of 10 years, she just gave up.
I wont allow him to buy new dogs.

Beth

Well done for trying, and for keeping the dogs welfare in mind.

Needless to say the ol fells is distraught with this

(from your first post)
If he's not prepared to do anything more with them, then he may get a lot more notes and possibly a caller or two - since you said he was distraught over the note, then he may have to brace himself for feeling that way until the dogs are sorted properly.

Well done and good luck.

kerrysgold

Can't he see what he's doing is wrong? I hope he is reported, those poor dogs need to be seized. A lot of SPCA's are useless and won't help dogs but hopefully wherever those dogs are the SPCA will help them if he is reported.

Isn't there anything you can do for them? Would he allow you to put up a fenced area for them? take them for walks? buy them some beds and proper food?

Can they go outside at all or are they locked inside of the shed all day except for when he lets them out?

I cannot believe such cruelty to animals is fine in the eyes of the law, it's ridiculous.

Sigma Force

Understand your situation but fact is most dogs are not kept this way and not all farm dogs are kept this way either.

The law is not great as long as they have food water and shelter he's not doing anything wrong but really these dogs are bored silly and probably love to see your dad coming up to them now and then.

Are they in general in good health, do they get yearly vaccinations, regular worming etc.

Sound a bit bad but perhaps you could talk to your local SPCA and perhaps have someone you know ask if they could have (or even buy for a tiny sum) the dogs because they had been looking for exactly those kind of dogs for their farm..some sort of tale.

If you know you can make sure the dogs aren't replaced of course.

It would be different if the dogs were out running around and had company for half the day or were working on the farm or if they were his only company and they were his companions at home but they aren't.

It would be great if you could do this think of the life the poor dogs are having at the moment it's no life for any dog especially a farm dog they need to be out and about.

All else fails perhaps you could invest in a dog run rather than a chain you can get dog runs for any size so they could run around their area instead of being chained up. They could strangle themselves or get caught on something, although many dogs on chains can manage the chain sometimes they can get into knots.

EGAR

OP, fair play to you for trying to change things which, for the time being, cannot be changed. Especially hard since it involves such a close family member. let me just say that your dad's dogs are a heck of alot better off than alot of farm dogs around here. At least they have human contact twice a day, are allowed to run lose and are being fed (as to the remark about properly feeding them: specific dogfood is a relative *new* invention and millions of dogs before the dawn of *pedigree and Co.* became old on table scraps - what do you think is in most manufactured food??).

Of course it is not right BUT even if he were to be reported, the dogs would not be seized from him. The Animal Welfare Law in Ireland is outdated and needs to be brought into the 21st century.

Instead of lambasting the old guy, you should calmly sit him down and explain that things have changed and that he maybe should consider converting some of the shed into a run for the dogs instead of keeping them chained.

Antilles

If you are honestly concerned for the welfare of the dogs, you might consider talking them for a walk some time.

Leashes can be tricky to handle and if you were to accidentally lose your grip and the dogs ran away, some kind stranger might take them in.

You could probably advertise in shops or ad newspapers for people who like dogs and might be willing to accompany you on your walk, as well.

Cole

Top Dog wrote: »

As for what the person who left the note can do - they can report your father for cruelty to animals which could result in investigators calling to check out the conditions in which the dogs are kept, and if they agree that its cruelty then they have every right to take the animals and also have your father up in court.

lostinnappies wrote: »

If the conditions are severe enough the dogs will be taken away and your father put on charges for cruelty to animals ... although it doesnt sound like it.

BlackCat2008 wrote: »

yes if the spca see they are not looked after proberly they can have the dog or crueliy officer remove them and prosacute.

Unfortunately, the conditions in which the animal is housed have to be so bad that they are causing the animal to physically suffer. The condition of the housing in itself, even if very bad, does not fall under any legal breach in Ireland. Again, it's the physical condition of the animal.

Legally, cruelty is defined as 'unnecessary suffering'. It is for a vet to decide if this is the case, before any prosecution can be pursued.

Protection of Animals Act 1911
1. Offences of cruelty. — (1) If any person—
(a)shall cruelly beat, kick, ill-treat, over-ride, over-drive, over-load, torture, infuriate, or terrify any animal, or shall cause or procure, or, being the owner, permit any animal to be so used, or shall, by wantonly or unreasonably doing or omitting to do any act, or causing or procuring the commission or omission of any act, cause any unnecessary suffering, or, being the owner, permit any unnecessary suffering to be so caused to any animal.


Also, the investigators, unless they are Gardai, have no right to take the animals.

Protection of Animals Act 1911
11(2) If any veterinary surgeon summoned under this section certifies that the injured animal can without cruelty be removed, it shall be the duty of the person in charge of the animal to cause it forthwith to be removed with as little suffering as possible, and, if that person fail so to do, the police constable may, without the consent of that person, cause the animal forthwith to be so removed.

luckat wrote: »

The guard's personal opinion on whether it's animal cruelty or not isn't going to help if anyone brings a prosecution against your father.

It's the Gardai that actually bring the prosecutions.

kerrysgold wrote: »

A farmer I know of used to keep his dogs locked in a shed all the time. Another idiot I know of used to keep a dog in a pitch black shed. SPCA wouldn't do anything in either situation.

kerrysgold wrote: »

Can't he see what he's doing is wrong? I hope he is reported, those poor dogs need to be seized. A lot of SPCA's are useless and won't help dogs but hopefully wherever those dogs are the SPCA will help them if he is reported.

A lot of SPCA's are just as frustrated about not being able to intervene, because of the legal situation.

EGAR wrote: »

OP, fair play to you for trying to change things which, for the time being, cannot be changed. Especially hard since it involves such a close family member. let me just say that your dad's dogs are a heck of alot better off than alot of farm dogs around here. At least they have human contact twice a day, are allowed to run lose and are being fed (as to the remark about properly feeding them: specific dogfood is a relative *new* invention and millions of dogs before the dawn of *pedigree and Co.* became old on table scraps - what do you think is in most manufactured food??).

Of course it is not right BUT even if he were to be reported, the dogs would not be seized from him. The Animal Welfare Law in Ireland is outdated and needs to be brought into the 21st century.

Instead of lambasting the old guy, you should calmly sit him down and explain that things have changed and that he maybe should consider converting some of the shed into a run for the dogs instead of keeping them chained.

The most sensible post on this matter. Good suggestion for the OP.

spurscormac

Antilles wrote: »

If you are honestly concerned for the welfare of the dogs, you might consider talking them for a walk some time.

Leashes can be tricky to handle and if you were to accidentally lose your grip and the dogs ran away, some kind stranger might take them in.

You could probably advertise in shops or ad newspapers for people who like dogs and might be willing to accompany you on your walk, as well.

This board has gone from advising people to take someone else's cat & have them neutered to now advising someone to take their fathers dogs and give them away while out walking them. :mad:

Can you people not see the difficult situation this person is in?
Trying to change the ways and attitude of an older family member without offending them is difficult to do.
Suggestions such as buying bedding, converting part of the shed to a run etc, are far more helpful than ones to steal the dogs and give them away.

Seriously people, this is a delicate situation, practical solutions are far more useful than the illegal ones being made.

Vel

Calm down there spurscormac. As far as I can see it ONE person on this thread suggested he take the dogs the lose them.

comongethappy

I have to agree that while your dad isn't doing anything illegal, he's still not doing the right thing by the dogs. Do you live close to your dad? If so you should order some vet bedding (you can order from http://www.ccpdogs.ie/product_info.php?cPath=39_82&products_id=615909&osCsid=97a95c8ddfceeba3b5dd4c78324c16aa , I would recommend that you take it out and wash it in the washing machine once a week). Maybe order two kong toys that you can stuff treats into to keep them entertained.

slemons

i live 40+ miles from home. Not much chance i can get there regularly.
The dogs are now off the chains and in a house each.
They're reltively well fed and out 2x a day. I dont each any packaged food so i dont see why they should. Table scraps from our table is still the best of organic food.

Im not going to lose the dogs accidentally on purpose, and really there's not much more i can do

kerrysgold

that's progress at least!

when you say in a house each, can they interact? if they don't fight, I think it would be best to let the two dogs mix with each other, at least that way they are company for each other. Imagine sitting in a room all day on your own, wouldn't it be more bearable if you had somebody to "talk" to?

I think maybe suggest putting them both in the same shed and building a run off it so they can come in to the shed and go outside when they want.

Building a run isn't expensive, all you need is a few fence posts (about €4 each) some chain link (a large roll is less than €90) and a gate (a fence panel works fine, about €20) and some hinges and a bolt.

Have they got bedding or are they still sleeping on concrete? Sleeping on concrete can cause really sore wounds, which may not be noticeable if the dogs are furry. A dog can look perfect but if you part the fur and look at their skin, they may be covered in sores. Any sort of bedding would be fine as long as it's dry, even a few old blankets, an old duvet etc.

Are they wormed & vaccinated? If they aren't wormed, they will be getting very little goodness from the food. If they are ribby but have a pot belly that's a giveaway. Worming tablets are inexpensive, a good brand is "Drontal Plus" and is €3 per tablet which a dog should be given every 6 months.

It's great that you've made some progress with him, congrats, but there is still a lot he needs to do to make their lives better. How old are the dogs anyway?