Garda "Speed Enforcement Zones"

http://www.garda.ie/sez/Speed_Enforcement_Zones.htm

Excessive or inappropriate speeding continues to be a significant contributory factor in road traffic collisions. As part of the Road Safety Strategy 2007 - 2012 and An Garda Síochána's strategic goals, a targeted approach to speed enforcement will be undertaken in order to significantly reduce the incidence of fatal and serious injuries and improve road safety.
An Garda Síochána, in conjunction with the National Roads Authority, have completed an extensive analysis of the collision history on the road network where speed was a contributory factor. Sections of road have been identified where a significant proportion of accidents occurred whereby, in the opinion of the investigating Garda, a safe speed was exceeded. Based on this analysis, a list of Speed Enforcement Zones has been developed with the aim of providing information to motorists in order to raise awareness of speeding in these zones. An Garda Síochána will utilize these zones in order to direct speed enforcement activity in a proportionate and targeted manner. These zones will be reviewed and updated on an ongoing basis through continuing analysis, feedback, and sharing of information with other stakeholders.

Looks like they are going to actually look at speeding on bad roads rather that the usual "fish in a barrel" approach on the new good roads.

Looking at some of the zones, I believe that it's a bit too late to be doing this exercise as these places have now been bypassed by new motorways.

corktina

a cursory look trells me that many of these spots are altready infested by Gards.....and others arent too practical like the N72 from the racecourse SS to Longueville junction....its not possible to park a van on the bad bit imho and the rest of it is quite good road...

Overall though I welcome the initiative..

..I suppose it would be too radical to suggest governing all cars to 120 k maximum speed.....?

loyatemu

corktina wrote: »

a cursory look trells me that many of these spots are altready infested by Gards.....and others arent too practical like the N72 from the racecourse SS to Longueville junction....its not possible to park a van on the bad bit imho and the rest of it is quite good road...

Overall though I welcome the initiative..

..I suppose it would be too radical to suggest governing all cars to 120 k maximum speed.....?

that would only stop people speeding on motorways, which is hardly the main problem in Ireland (or anywhere else). There's a host of other reasons why its a bad idea too.

corktina

you couldnt set it lower UNLESS the cars had a micro chip that governed their max speed to the road speed limit.....i wouldnt think that was too difficult to do.....political suicide of course....

:eek:

Washout

why not introduce average speed cameras.

on these stretches of roads have a starting point camera and X distance down the road have an end point camera. and calculate the average speed over the 2 points.

I saw this in Glasgow recently and thought it was a brilliant idea,

TheNog

"fish in a barrel"

I hate this saying. It implies that people who are the fish are stupid and are caught speeding and then complain about it.

If you are speeding and are caught, accept it. It doesn't matter where you are caught as along as it was on a public road.

And before ye start on with the "high horse" crap I do exceed the speed limit but not excessively. I just haven't been caught yet though :D:D

TheNog

Washout wrote: »

why not introduce average speed cameras.

on these stretches of roads have a starting point camera and X distance down the road have an end point camera. and calculate the average speed over the 2 points.

I saw this in Glasgow recently and thought it was a brilliant idea,

Not a bad idea but tbh if the method of catching people was replaced with "quality instead of quantity" across the board it would be less expensive than setting up two cameras.

LostinBlanch

An Garda Síochána, in conjunction with the National Roads Authority, have completed an extensive analysis of the collision history on the road network where speed was a contributory factor.

Is this list publicly available? The cynic in me wonders if the highlighted roads are chosen because the GATSO vans have a better chance of getting more hits (if you'll pardon the pun) and hence more revenue.

I think most people would agree with the Nog in calling for a quality not quantity approach i.e. actually preventing accidents instead of (being seen to be) shooting fish in a barrel /revenue gathering.

PS Setting a good example there Nog!:D But I know one guard who was caught and got two points :eek:

SeanW

I just had a look at the list of "enforcement zones" in Co. Longford, was impressed with the appearance that many of these 'zones' fall over the non-national network where speeding is truely hazardous. However, there is a certain element of "fish in a barrel" as the entire N4 seems to be covered continuously over a number of 'zones' starting from the toll bypass R148 at Kilcock to Kinnegad, covering the entire N4 dual carraigeway through Westmeath and into Edgeworthstown.

Curiously, the "old N4" R148 between Leixlip and Kilcock (where the M4 is free) doesn't seem to have made it into the list. Hmm ... curious.

The list of zones is also very vague, perhaps attempting to convey the possibility that the traps will be very mobile, maybe they will and maybe they won't.

Perhaps the best online resource for locating common speed traps is:
http://www.irishspeedtraps.com/
which nails traps down by sighted positions and known locations instead of vague zones.

thebman

TheNog wrote: »

Not a bad idea but tbh if the method of catching people was replaced with "quality instead of quantity" across the board it would be less expensive than setting up two cameras.

You can obey the speed limit and drive dangerously.

We need police presence and not cameras that only detect speeding especially on dangerous roads so you can catch people talking on their phones etc... while going around twisty, blind corners.

Also if someone stops in a shop or to make a call in an average speeding zone, they can speed afterwards so it isn't fool proof.

MPD

I note that most of the Stillorgan road from Donnybrook to Stillorgan has be "identified" as "Sections of road have been identified where a significant proportion of accidents occurred whereby, in the opinion of the investigating Garda, a safe speed was exceeded." Almost be definition any accident could have been avoided if the cars involved had been going slower, say 10kph, so every accident could be said to have involved an "unsafe speed". Life is all about balancing risk and benefit.

What I would like to know more about is the statistical basis for identifying this very safe stretch of road , with , in my opinion, an unreasonably low speed limit. Can this be found anywhere? I looked at the Garda site and the NRA.

I did see a comment on boards.ie from 2005 that "There were four fatal crashes on the Stillorgan road, three involving serious injury and 65 minor injuries, in the eight years between 1996 and 2004." but as someone noted at the time this could have included that notorious Joy Rider crash which caused 2 deaths and two serious injuries. Then one must examine if 3 fatal crashes for the volume of traffic carried (must be one of the highest in the state) makes this an accident prone stretch of road.

I have been driving accident free for 32 years and the "safe speed" for free flowing traffic on that road is certainly somewhat higher than 60kph, yet I know many people who have got points and fines for doing around 75kph.

The whole area of speed cameras and speed limits is clouded by propaganda by lazy bureaucrats who keep applying the same lazy thinking to road safety and expect to get different results. Have a look at this excellent article on http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limits_85th.htm .

Of course too many people die on the roads in Ireland and things must change, but pulling people driving safely on the Stillorgan road for driving at 75kph does not one iota to save those lives and simply brings the whole road safety enforcement programme into disrepute with the hard pressed travelling public!.

Mark

AlekSmart

MPD writes

"The whole area of speed cameras and speed limits is clouded by propaganda by lazy bureaucrats who keep applying the same lazy thinking to road safety and expect to get different results. Have a look at this excellent article on http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limits_85th.htm .

Of course too many people die on the roads in Ireland and things must change, but pulling people driving safely on the Stillorgan road for driving at 75kph does not one iota to save those lives and simply brings the whole road safety enforcement programme into disrepute with the hard pressed travelling public!.

Mark"

How very true.

The point regarding the Stillorgan Road "stats"is very intertesting as it also raises other issues concerning the individuals involved in what was a very high profile tradgedy.

It is argueable that in that case there were other factors,including Garda operational methodology, at play which WHEN COMBINED with excessive speed led to the fatalities.

Interesting too is the inclusion of nearby Clonskeagh in this "Hit-List".
The most recent fatal Road Traffic Incident along this road also involved an on-duty Garda vehicle.

The nature of the revelations during the subsequent legal proceedings gives some ground for concern about high level Garda Management policies.

It would appear from the evidence presented to the Dublin City Coroner that there were differences of opinion present WITHIN the Garda Siochana as to the contributory factors of that particular incident.

Questions were raised regarding Garda Driver Training,Vehicle Condition and Tyre Specifications regarding the entire Garda fleet.

I understand that in that particular case (Clonskeagh) the bereaved family still have concerns about the investigation so perhaps further online comment may be unwelcome.

However,these examples alone go towards highlighting the basic flaw in ALL Government Road Safety Policy to date.
It is simply untrue that Speed alone is the sole CAUSE of RTI`s.

The instructions to the Gardai to concentrate almost all of their resources on Speed Detection is leaving us with a generation of Drivers who believe that once they keep below the limit they can drive any way they like (or are able).

Mobile Telephones,Video Games,Ice cream Cones,Blackout Glass all around,total isolation from whatever lies beyond their own bonnet.

The Gardai need to get Pro-Active and quick if they are to display to the wider motoring community any form of serious concern about Road Traffic Fatalities.....if not then we must accept that it`s all about Revenue :eek:

TheNog

LostinBlanch wrote: »

PS Setting a good example there Nog!:D But I know one guard who was caught and got two points :eek:

I a few guards who have penalty points and rightly so. Goes to show that there are guards out there willing to do another for whatever offence they commit.

brim4brim wrote: »

You can obey the speed limit and drive dangerously.

We need police presence and not cameras that only detect speeding especially on dangerous roads so you can catch people talking on their phones etc... while going around twisty, blind corners.

Also if someone stops in a shop or to make a call in an average speeding zone, they can speed afterwards so it isn't fool proof.

Why do we only need police presence on the roads. Granted hi-viz policing is important but we also need the road users to report poor driving. Most of the people who ring my station say first off "sorry to bother you" or "I don;t want to waste your time". Tbh I have rarely witnessed dangerous driving while in the patrol car cos people adjust their behaviour accordingly when they see us so most of my dangerous driving files come from people reporting it to me. Also most people are not willing to make a statement which I can understand but if more people did make complaints and statements it would go even further to contribute to reduce traffic offences significantly.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Gardai need to get Pro-Active and quick if they are to display to the wider motoring community any form of serious concern about Road Traffic Fatalities.....if not then we must accept that it`s all about Revenue :eek:

Again Gardai cannot reduce RTCs alone but need the help of the public.

AlekSmart

I would wholeheartedly agree with TheNog`s sentiments and I`m not trying to "get-at" the individual Gardai who are by times as mystified by the policy decisions of their superiors as any other citizen.

However,one of the prime factors involved in the non-reporting of bad driving or any other infringement is that of FEAR.
Then there is the associated element of not being taken seriously by the member whom is dealing with your observation.

One example which comes to mind is the situation surrounding the Parking of Open-Top Dublin Tour Buses on O Connell St.

Since the O Connell St regeneration programme ended, the available roadspace has been markedly reduced.
However one Tour Company in particular has taken the view that the Street remains available for unrestricted parking of its Buses on Static Ticket Sales duty.
The situation is particularly serious at weekends when vehicles will be parked AT the Spire Pedestrian Crossing and at the Sackville Place junction where all sight lines to both pedestrian and vehicular traffic are completely blocked.

The situation is one of the most seriuous and blatent disregard for the basic rules of Road Safety.
Sadly in spite of many attempts to involve Gardai on duty at the GPO and many calls to both 112 and the Divisional Traffic Corps,the best response is the occassional "move it on there".

To my mind the situation is far more serious in that if a licenced operator is displaying a continuing disregard for such essential Road Safety elements as keeping the approach to a junction or pedestrian crossing clear then that Operator`s management needs to be apprised of their responsibilities at an official level.

What I perceive on a daily basis however,is individual Gardai simply walking,driving or riding disinterestedly past the offending vehicles as the Tourbus Driver,often out of the cab,touts for the ever decreasing business.

The question is whether in the pursuit of that business the Company is somehow or other allowed to ignore the most basic elenents of the Road Traffic Law ?

Law enforcement is not easy task and I applaud anybody who decides to make it a career,however much of it`s success depends on how visible effective affirmative action is made.
In my experience,judging from the Capital City`s Main Street,the will is not there.

Any opinions ??

TheNog

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would wholeheartedly agree with TheNog`s sentiments and I`m not trying to "get-at" the individual Gardai who are by times as mystified by the policy decisions of their superiors as any other citizen.

However,one of the prime factors involved in the non-reporting of bad driving or any other infringement is that of FEAR.
Then there is the associated element of not being taken seriously by the member whom is dealing with your observation.

I realise there is a certain amount of fear or uncertainty involved by some people but this can allayed by reassuring that person and giving them time to think about going for a prosecution. Usually people are so wound up at the time of reporting they are willing to go the whole hog but after a couple of days and they have calmed down people tend to change their mind.

AlekSmart wrote: »

One example which comes to mind is the situation surrounding the Parking of Open-Top Dublin Tour Buses on O Connell St.

Since the O Connell St regeneration programme ended, the available roadspace has been markedly reduced.
However one Tour Company in particular has taken the view that the Street remains available for unrestricted parking of its Buses on Static Ticket Sales duty.
The situation is particularly serious at weekends when vehicles will be parked AT the Spire Pedestrian Crossing and at the Sackville Place junction where all sight lines to both pedestrian and vehicular traffic are completely blocked.

The situation is one of the most seriuous and blatent disregard for the basic rules of Road Safety.
Sadly in spite of many attempts to involve Gardai on duty at the GPO and many calls to both 112 and the Divisional Traffic Corps,the best response is the occassional "move it on there".

To my mind the situation is far more serious in that if a licenced operator is displaying a continuing disregard for such essential Road Safety elements as keeping the approach to a junction or pedestrian crossing clear then that Operator`s management needs to be apprised of their responsibilities at an official level.

What I perceive on a daily basis however,is individual Gardai simply walking,driving or riding disinterestedly past the offending vehicles as the Tourbus Driver,often out of the cab,touts for the ever decreasing business.

The question is whether in the pursuit of that business the Company is somehow or other allowed to ignore the most basic elenents of the Road Traffic Law ?

Law enforcement is not easy task and I applaud anybody who decides to make it a career,however much of it`s success depends on how visible effective affirmative action is made.
In my experience,judging from the Capital City`s Main Street,the will is not there.

Any opinions ??

It is sad to hear of such things happening on a continual basis such as your example above so I would recommend you write a letter to the local Superintendent (reckon at Store St) to highlight the problem. He/she can ensure it doesn't happen again by contacting the tour operators and bringing it to the attention of uniformed members.

Not to disrespect the Gardai operating out of Store St but this type of policing as you have described is of a reactive type. I can only guess that Store St is a extremely busy station with a very small district (compared to country districts) but still very busy.

At my station and especially on my unit we try to operate a pro-active type of policing whether it be road traffic or burglary. To this end we have been successful to have no fatalities in our district that could have been prevented in the last year and a half. Serious injury as far as I remember, we have only had three in the last year (in the one collision). We have also been very successful with night-time burglaries in the sub-districts we cover on our unit with only one burglary recorded in the last year when we were working. Funnily enough that burglary occured at the same time we where assisting Dublin units with a car that failed to stop at a checkpoint.

Not trying to boast with all I have said but we find that the work we do does help reduce crime and traffic offences even though we still operate with one car.

HonalD

TheNog wrote: »

If you are speeding and are caught, accept it. It doesn't matter where you are caught as along as it was on a public road.

This is the bottom line - we all have a role to play.