No Representation in the shooting sports!

Sikamick

Grizzy I totally agree with you and below is a suggestion which I forwarded to the DOJ,FCP,SSAI some months ago and the DOJ replied to me saying that it was with a sup committee of the FCP. I have heard nothing since.
_________________________________________________________________

Independent Complaints & Standards Board for Shooting Sports in Ireland.

While the Firearms Consultative Panel sits the opportunity to go one step further and do the obvious thing of putting in place a regulatory body for shooting sports that covers all aspects of organized shooting here in the south of Ireland.

The best way to do this is for the sport to play its part in policing itself like any other organization including (example: An Garda who have such a watchdog to over see its standards and practice.

Setting up such a board will guarantee that the cowboy element gets shown up for what they are and if found to be acting in such a way as to cause concern at what ever level, they can be disciplined up to and including expulsion from organized shooting sports.

Here is what such a body could look like in brief.

Chairman: Someone outside the sport agreed by the Sporting Bodies and the DOJ / Minister.

The Board: From all disciplines of the sport who get nominated to the chairman to become members of the Board.

One semi permanent member from the DOJ /An Garda and one semi permanent member from the Firearms trade.

Powers: Full disciplinary powers to regulate to the highest standard.

Source of Powers: All authorizations and renewals of authorizations will only be processed and Granted by excepting that the Board hold the position of being the official regulatory Body of shooting sports here in Ireland.

Failure to Appoint: If the sporting organizations fail to nominate a candidate for a position on the board by a certain date, then the default position should be that the Minister of the day selects the independent Chairman with a member from the DOJ as assistant until all posts are filled.

Reserve Board: They would be needed to serve as replacements in a case where a member of the board was put in a conflict of interests situation, also the reserve board with the chairman would hear appeals to the boards decisions.

Term of the Board.3 year in total for permanent members, the chairman a second term if offered the position again.

Finally board members cannot be withdrawn by the sporting organizations because of duties and decisions carried out in the role as a board member.


Expenses for this work should be considered.


Name: Independent Complaints & Standards


Board. For Shooting Sports Ireland.


Powers of the Board.


Powers. Independent complaints & Standards board will have the power to call an Emergency E.G.M. meeting of any club or Organization and install a temporary Chairman.

The power to random audit to the level of casual scrutiny, serious concerns automatically get passed on to revenue.

The board can intervene in all disputes, fine offenders / ban from the sport all members under its remit.

The board will recommend improvements, list offenders, advise where disputes between the sports / members of the sport and an Garda arise.

Duties: Drawing up of a constitution / constitutions annually updated if necessary.

Drafting of a sports man's code of conduct.

Inspection of any Club or Organization premises with the power to view, copy, take items of interest. ( DOJ & Chairman approval required.) Publishing the annual report, which will include the list of all judgments and appeals heard by the Board.

Members: All members must be sworn in, the boards constitution will also have the means to punish any of its members if found in breach of its own rules up to and including a fine or total Ban from all organized sport.

Chairman: Holds a casting vote, can be re-appointed for a second term only if ASKED.

He can recommend the need for outside professional help, large expenses would have to get Ministerial approval to proceed.

Expenses: Should be considered for this vital sporting body. Possibly the Firearms licence fee the source.

Others: Any other shooting Club's / body not requiring authorization but wishes to come under the remit and constitution of the Board will have the right to the one remaining seat kept open and held for this purpose.

The board should be made up of experienced good all round sporting people, not necessary experts in every discipline but people wanting the very best for the Sport.


Michael O'Connor,

Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club.

Lee Green

Has shooting sports not got such a body to deal with complaints! If not
why not.
_________________________________________________________________

Independent Complaints & Standards Board for Shooting Sports in Ireland.

While the Firearms Consultative Panel sits the opportunity to go one step further and do the obvious thing of putting in place a regulatory body for shooting sports that covers all aspects of organized shooting here in the south of Ireland.

The best way to do this is for the sport to play its part in policing itself like any other organization including (example: An Garda who have such a watchdog to over see its standards and practice.

Setting up such a board will guarantee that the cowboy element gets shown up for what they are and if found to be acting in such a way as to cause concern at what ever level, they can be disciplined up to and including expulsion from organized shooting sports.

Here is what such a body could look like in brief.

Chairman: Someone outside the sport agreed by the Sporting Bodies and the DOJ / Minister.

The Board: From all disciplines of the sport who get nominated to the chairman to become members of the Board.

One semi permanent member from the DOJ /An Garda and one semi permanent member from the Firearms trade.

Powers: Full disciplinary powers to regulate to the highest standard.

Source of Powers: All authorizations and renewals of authorizations will only be processed and Granted by excepting that the Board hold the position of being the official regulatory Body of shooting sports here in Ireland.

Failure to Appoint: If the sporting organizations fail to nominate a candidate for a position on the board by a certain date, then the default position should be that the Minister of the day selects the independent Chairman with a member from the DOJ as assistant until all posts are filled.

Reserve Board: They would be needed to serve as replacements in a case where a member of the board was put in a conflict of interests situation, also the reserve board with the chairman would hear appeals to the boards decisions.

Term of the Board.3 year in total for permanent members, the chairman a second term if offered the position again.

Finally board members cannot be withdrawn by the sporting organizations because of duties and decisions carried out in the role as a board member.


Expenses for this work should be considered.


Name: Independent Complaints & Standards


Board. For Shooting Sports Ireland.


Powers of the Board.


Powers. Independent complaints & Standards board will have the power to call an Emergency E.G.M. meeting of any club or Organization and install a temporary Chairman.

The power to random audit to the level of casual scrutiny, serious concerns automatically get passed on to revenue.

The board can intervene in all disputes, fine offenders / ban from the sport all members under its remit.

The board will recommend improvements, list offenders, advise where disputes between the sports / members of the sport and an Garda arise.

Duties: Drawing up of a constitution / constitutions annually updated if necessary.

Drafting of a sports man's code of conduct.

Inspection of any Club or Organization premises with the power to view, copy, take items of interest. ( DOJ & Chairman approval required.) Publishing the annual report, which will include the list of all judgments and appeals heard by the Board.

Members: All members must be sworn in, the boards constitution will also have the means to punish any of its members if found in breach of its own rules up to and including a fine or total Ban from all organized sport.

Chairman: Holds a casting vote, can be re-appointed for a second term only if ASKED.

He can recommend the need for outside professional help, large expenses would have to get Ministerial approval to proceed.

Expenses: Should be considered for this vital sporting body. Possibly the Firearms licence fee the source.

Others: Any other shooting Club's / body not requiring authorization but wishes to come under the remit and constitution of the Board will have the right to the one remaining seat kept open and held for this purpose.

The board should be made up of experienced good all round sporting people, not necessary experts in every discipline but people wanting the very best for the Sport.


Michael O'Connor,

Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club.[/SIZE]

cooperjeff9

Lee Green wrote: »

Has shooting sports not got such a body to deal with complaints! If not
why not.
_________________________________________________________________

Independent Complaints & Standards Board for Shooting Sports in Ireland.

While the Firearms Consultative Panel sits the opportunity to go one step further and do the obvious thing of putting in place a regulatory body for shooting sports that covers all aspects of organized shooting here in the south of Ireland.

The best way to do this is for the sport to play its part in policing itself like any other organization including (example: An Garda who have such a watchdog to over see its standards and practice.

Setting up such a board will guarantee that the cowboy element gets shown up for what they are and if found to be acting in such a way as to cause concern at what ever level, they can be disciplined up to and including expulsion from organized shooting sports.

Here is what such a body could look like in brief.

Chairman: Someone outside the sport agreed by the Sporting Bodies and the DOJ / Minister.

The Board: From all disciplines of the sport who get nominated to the chairman to become members of the Board.

One semi permanent member from the DOJ /An Garda and one semi permanent member from the Firearms trade.

Powers: Full disciplinary powers to regulate to the highest standard.

Source of Powers: All authorizations and renewals of authorizations will only be processed and Granted by excepting that the Board hold the position of being the official regulatory Body of shooting sports here in Ireland.

Failure to Appoint: If the sporting organizations fail to nominate a candidate for a position on the board by a certain date, then the default position should be that the Minister of the day selects the independent Chairman with a member from the DOJ as assistant until all posts are filled.

Reserve Board: They would be needed to serve as replacements in a case where a member of the board was put in a conflict of interests situation, also the reserve board with the chairman would hear appeals to the boards decisions.

Term of the Board.3 year in total for permanent members, the chairman a second term if offered the position again.

Finally board members cannot be withdrawn by the sporting organizations because of duties and decisions carried out in the role as a board member.


Expenses for this work should be considered.


Name: Independent Complaints & Standards


Board. For Shooting Sports Ireland.


Powers of the Board.


Powers. Independent complaints & Standards board will have the power to call an Emergency E.G.M. meeting of any club or Organization and install a temporary Chairman.

The power to random audit to the level of casual scrutiny, serious concerns automatically get passed on to revenue.

The board can intervene in all disputes, fine offenders / ban from the sport all members under its remit.

The board will recommend improvements, list offenders, advise where disputes between the sports / members of the sport and an Garda arise.

Duties: Drawing up of a constitution / constitutions annually updated if necessary.

Drafting of a sports man's code of conduct.

Inspection of any Club or Organization premises with the power to view, copy, take items of interest. ( DOJ & Chairman approval required.) Publishing the annual report, which will include the list of all judgments and appeals heard by the Board.

Members: All members must be sworn in, the boards constitution will also have the means to punish any of its members if found in breach of its own rules up to and including a fine or total Ban from all organized sport.

Chairman: Holds a casting vote, can be re-appointed for a second term only if ASKED.

He can recommend the need for outside professional help, large expenses would have to get Ministerial approval to proceed.

Expenses: Should be considered for this vital sporting body. Possibly the Firearms licence fee the source.

Others: Any other shooting Club's / body not requiring authorization but wishes to come under the remit and constitution of the Board will have the right to the one remaining seat kept open and held for this purpose.

The board should be made up of experienced good all round sporting people, not necessary experts in every discipline but people wanting the very best for the Sport.


Michael O'Connor,

Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club.[/size]

I hope I'm not being unfair, but aren't we almost in magic mushroom time of year? Seems like the OP may have over indulged. Create a shooting complaints board with more powers than the Government? I don't think so. There may be some merit in some of the post but it is surrounded by so much other silly stuff that it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Incidentally, perhaps the poster could outline the need for such a board i.e. how much of a serious problem are these "cowboy elements" and what specific problems are they causing. I would like to know how serious the problem is before we go creating any complaints board, independent or otherwise.The fairest thing to suggest is that the original poster (Lee Green or Mick O'Connor) take time to reread their post and try to make it coherent to readers.

rrpc

Lee Green wrote: »

Has shooting sports not got such a body to deal with complaints! If not
why not.

They do. It's called Just Sport Ireland. Thread on it over here

Source of Powers: All authorizations and renewals of authorizations will only be processed and Granted by excepting that the Board hold the position of being the official regulatory Body of shooting sports here in Ireland.

By doing so, you would be going against the firearms acts which gives full powers over firearms to the Minister for Justice and the Gardai.

Powers. Independent complaints & Standards board will have the power to call an Emergency E.G.M. meeting of any club or Organization and install a temporary Chairman.

Some clubs and associations are limited companies. Such a power would therefore have to override the companies acts.

The power to random audit to the level of casual scrutiny, serious concerns automatically get passed on to revenue.

Most clubs are (or should be) tax exempt. The Revenue would have no interest. Again, this power would also be in conflict with the companies acts.

The board can intervene in all disputes, fine offenders / ban from the sport all members under its remit.

No arbitration board I ever heard of had the right to intervene without the consent of both parties.

The board will recommend improvements, list offenders, advise where disputes between the sports / members of the sport and an Garda arise.

Duties: Drawing up of a constitution / constitutions annually updated if necessary.

Again would be in contaravention of the companies acts.

Drafting of a sports man's code of conduct.

Inspection of any Club or Organization premises with the power to view, copy, take items of interest. ( DOJ & Chairman approval required.) Publishing the annual report, which will include the list of all judgments and appeals heard by the Board.

This would mean that any vexatious complaint could effectively close down a club without notice or due process.

Members: All members must be sworn in, the boards constitution will also have the means to punish any of its members if found in breach of its own rules up to and including a fine or total Ban from all organized sport.

This sounds a bit OTT. Someone who requires such a ban is probably guilty of criminal activity.

Chairman: Holds a casting vote, can be re-appointed for a second term only if ASKED.

He can recommend the need for outside professional help, large expenses would have to get Ministerial approval to proceed.

Expenses: Should be considered for this vital sporting body. Possibly the Firearms licence fee the source.

Others: Any other shooting Club's / body not requiring authorization but wishes to come under the remit and constitution of the Board will have the right to the one remaining seat kept open and held for this purpose.

The board should be made up of experienced good all round sporting people, not necessary experts in every discipline but people wanting the very best for the Sport.

They would necessarily have to be experts as anything else could result in poor decision making.

It seems to me that something has happened within the sport that redress is being sought for. I'm not sure that this is the best way to go about it.

Most sporting bodies have their own disciplinary procedures and I'm not just talking about shooting here. I've never seen a situation that required such strong Government involvement as well as such sweeping legislative changes.

Sikamick

Quote rrpc (They do. It's called, Just Sport Ireland)

Would I be correct in saying that both parties have to sign up to arbitration, what do you do if one party refuses.

We are all aware that there are problems within the shooting sports with no means of solving disputes. What does a club member do if he is in dispute with his club having been dismissed, where or who does he go to.

What if a club is in dispute with their NGB, who do they go to.



______________________________________________________________

Quote rrpc (This would mean that any vexatious complaint could effectively close down a club without notice or due process.)


This has already happened, and it was left to the Garda to sort out and return an Authorization to the original club.

________________________________________________________________


Quote rrpc (It seems to me that something has happened within the sport that redress is being sought for. I'm not sure that this is the best way to go about it.)

Where does one go rrpc? Court. I don't think one should have to go court if the sport is policed properly by people within the sport.


_________________________________________________________________

Quote Lee Green (Has shooting sports not got such a body to deal with complaints! If not why not.)

This is the question to be answered.

__________________________________________________________________

Also please refere to the original posting under HCAP Range test.


Sikamick

Sikamick

Quote Cooperjeff9 (I hope I'm not being unfair, but aren't we almost in magic mushroom time of year? Seems like the OP may have over indulged. Create a shooting complaints board with more powers than the Government? I don't think so. There may be some merit in some of the post but it is surrounded by so much other silly stuff that it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Incidentally, perhaps the poster could outline the need for such a board i.e. how much of a serious problem are these "cowboy elements" and what specific problems are they causing. I would like to know how serious the problem is before we go creating any complaints board, independent or otherwise.The fairest thing to suggest is that the original poster (Lee Green or Mick O'Connor) take time to reread their post and try to make it coherent to readers.
__________________
DVC)


_________________________________________________________________

Firstly I don't take magic mushrooms, There illegal.

Re Cowboy Elements: don't we have them in all walks of life, are you saying that shooting sports is so correct that we couldn't have them.


_________________________________________________________________


If in they way it is written you find it difficult to understand, My apologies.

Question: Do other sports have a Complaints & Standards Board?

There are problems within the shooting sports and they wont get resolved by putting them under the carpet.


Sikamick

If someone has enough courage to ask you a question seriously, then you should be brave enough to answer truthfully

-Cameron Milton

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote rrpc (They do. It's called, Just Sport Ireland)

Would I be correct in saying that both parties have to sign up to arbitration, what do you do if one party refuses.

That's why its called arbitration. Anything else is a dictatorship or a kangaroo court.

We are all aware that there are problems within the shooting sports with no means of solving disputes. What does a club member do if he is in dispute with his club having been dismissed, where or who does he go to.

This issue faces any club or individual in any sport. It's not confined to shooting and you shouldn't be creating the impression that it is.

The rules of clubs should allow for disciplinary procedures to be carried out fairly and objectively. If you have a problem with your clubs rules, then you should set about amending them and include an arbitration process within the rules so that the members have recourse to such a facility.

What if a club is in dispute with their NGB, who do they go to.

Again as I said above, the arbitration process should be in the rules. It's incumbent on the members to change the rules to include such a process.

This has already happened, and it was left to the Garda to sort out and return an Authorization to the original club.

I'm not going to comment on individual cases, but the rules you set out above are far too draconian and would lend themselves to abuse as well as being overly complicated and top heavy. If a member of a club misbehaves and is dealt with fairly, there should be no problem. If they still have a problem, an arbitration process should be in place to facilitate any appeals or difficulty with the clubs judgment.

Where does one go rrpc? Court. I don't think one should have to go court if the sport is policed properly by people within the sport.

Well that's the point really isn't it? We don't take the correct precautions to protect ourselves and we rely too much on trust. When things go wrong, nothing's in place to deal with it.

Lee Green (Has shooting sports not got such a body to deal with complaints! If not why not.)

But you're approaching it from the wrong direction. Proper procedures need to be in place from the bottom up, not imposed from the top down .

Also please refere to the original posting under HCAP Range test.

That's off-topic there and should be addressed seperately.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

That's why its called arbitration. Anything else is a dictatorship or a kangaroo court.

This issue faces any club or individual in any sport. It's not confined to shooting and you shouldn't be creating the impression that it is.

The rules of clubs should allow for disciplinary procedures to be carried out fairly and objectively. If you have a problem with your clubs rules, then you should set about amending them and include an arbitration process within the rules so that the members have recourse to such a facility.

Again as I said above, the arbitration process should be in the rules. It's incumbent on the members to change the rules to include such a process.

I'm not going to comment on individual cases, but the rules you set out above are far too draconian and would lend themselves to abuse as well as being overly complicated and top heavy. If a member of a club misbehaves and is dealt with fairly, there should be no problem. If they still have a problem, an arbitration process should be in place to facilitate any appeals or difficulty with the clubs judgment.


Well that's the point really isn't it? We don't take the correct precautions to protect ourselves and we rely too much on trust. When things go wrong, nothing's in place to deal with it.



But you're approaching it from the wrong direction. Proper procedures need to be in place from the bottom up, not imposed from the top down .


That's off-topic there and should be addressed seperately.

________________________________________________________________

Re most of the above: All is well when everyone agrees. Re off the topic: I did not start this Thread.

An old saying: You can take a horse to the well but you cant make him drink.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Re most of the above: All is well when everyone agrees. Re off the topic: I did not start this Thread.

What I meant was the post in the HCAP thread was off-topic, it's better to continue the discussion here.

An old saying: You can take a horse to the well but you cant make him drink.

Sikamick

And its no good locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Although I don't actually agreee: if the horse hadn't bolted, you might never have known that the stable door wasn't being locked

Which is the whole point of this really. What you are suggesting is a bit like casting the stable in concrete with fingerprint readers on the door and a separate porch attached with armoured glass and security guards.

You just wouldn't bother bringing the horse out really :mad:

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

What I meant was the post in the HCAP thread was off-topic, it's better to continue the discussion here.


And its no good locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Although I don't actually agreee: if the horse hadn't bolted, you might never have known that the stable door wasn't being locked

Which is the whole point of this really. What you are suggesting is a bit like casting the stable in concrete with fingerprint readers on the door and a separate porch attached with armoured glass and security guards.

You just wouldn't bother bringing the horse out really :mad:

_________________________________________________________________

rrpc: Unfortunately one cant bring the horse out into the open field here on Boards because he is so dirty, if you get what I mean.

Just to answer something you said earlier, re rules and constitution, if the person that set them up wont abide by them i.e. attending meetings to answer certain questions, what do you? dismiss them, we did but the people above us done nothing about them and they continue to cause problems in the sport.

The wording of the statement re Independent Complaints & Standards Board may not be correct or the way it is written not perfect, it was an idea, it is not written in stone, but it is something we need I our sport.(My opinion)


Sikamick

rrpc

I'm afraid it's a free country and people have the right to carry on regardless unless they have been convicted of a crime.

What you are proposing is to turn sport (and I'm including all sports here) into effectively a branch of the criminal code.

As I said before its not possible to do that. Even drug cheats only get two year bans in sport and can usually get involved when they've finished. When you look at the amount of money and organisation it takes to catch drug cheats, then you have some idea of what would be required.

Sikamick

Quote rrpc: I'm afraid it's a free country and people have the right to carry on regardless unless they have been convicted of a crime.

_______________________________________________________________

Sorry I have to disagree here, there have been a lot of incidence's in sport that could not be considered a crime but still warranted dismissal

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Grizzy I totally agree with you and below is a suggestion which I forwarded to the DOJ,FCP,SSAI some months ago and the DOJ replied to me saying that it was with a sup committee of the FCP. I have heard nothing since.

Have to say sikamick, I would really not like to see a board like that set up for two reasons:

1. I wouldn't trust anyone in the sport with that much authority, and I include myself in that assessment; and
2. There is nothing in Irish law that says that a club answers to anyone the way you're suggesting - introducing that kind of authority to Irish law would be a massive change. And massive changes have a habit of doing unforeseen damage on a massive scale.

Sparks

The problem is that clubs, as unincorporated bodies, are not subject to very much in the way of enforcement of rules. JSI can act as an arbitration body, and is about the best route forward that we have, but most of the problems (and the specific ones that I'm guessing are the motivation for the original idea) are down to people who wouldn't accept any arbitration decision that they didn't approve of; and that's not a problem that you can get round easily. The kind of top-down authority that you're talking about here would be the worst solution - picture a situation where the people you're worried about have the kind of authority you're talking about.

See how bad that picture is? What you want is a system where you could put your worst enemy in charge and know that you wouldn't be discriminated against. This... isn't it.

Sparks

(You'd also be well served by ensuring that your NGBs and clubs are not unincorporated associations - that way if they get out of hand, you do have a third party to enforce certain rules and regulations on their behaviour, namely the courts system).

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote rrpc: I'm afraid it's a free country and people have the right to carry on regardless unless they have been convicted of a crime.

_______________________________________________________________

Sorry I have to disagree here there have been a lot of incidence's in sport that could not be considered a crime but still warranted dismissal

Sikamick

Dismissal is not what you're looking for, what you seem to require is an outright ban that steps into the area of personal freedoms.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

Dismissal is not what you're looking for, what you seem to require is an outright ban that steps into the area of personal freedoms.

______________________________________________________________

rrpc please read again (Complaints and Standards Board), the suggestion may not be perfect but some of the things done on people in this sport would deserve a lot worse than a Ban.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

______________________________________________________________

rrpc please read again (Complaints and Standards Board), the suggestion may not be perfect but some of the things done on people in this sport would deserve a lot worse than a Ban.

Sikamick

I agree with you Sikamick, but if you were to legislate for the very worst in society then you would have a police state.

Nobody wants that.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

I agree with you Sikamick, but if you were to legislate for the very worst in society then you would have a police state.

Nobody wants that.

_________________________________________________________________

rrpc with respect all Democratic Countries legislate for the worst in their Societies, they have Governments, Courts, Police and prisons.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

rrpc with respect all Democratic Countries legislate for the worst in their Societies, they have Governments, Courts, Police and prisons.

Sikamick

With equal respect Mick, they don't. They legislate on the basis of the greater good and have appeals processes, due process, juries of their peers and free legal aid.

If they were to legislate for the very worst, then there would be no appeals, no juries, the death sentence at dawn and internment of suspects without a right to trial.

These have been tried and abused in various countries with horrific consequences for the innocent.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Have to say sikamick, I would really not like to see a board like that set up for two reasons:

1. I wouldn't trust anyone in the sport with that much authority, and I include myself in that assessment; and
2. There is nothing in Irish law that says that a club answers to anyone the way you're suggesting - introducing that kind of authority to Irish law would be a massive change. And massive changes have a habit of doing unforeseen damage on a massive scale.

[/QUOTE


_________________________________________________________________

Sparks with respect I would rather see my sports representatives sitting at the table like in the FCP than wait for draconian system set up by the powers that be because the sport doesn't police itself.

Would you consider the FCP with some powers to be draconian.

Sikamick

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

With equal respect Mick, they don't. They legislate on the basis of the greater good and have appeals processes, due process, juries of their peers and free legal aid.

If they were to legislate for the very worst, then there would be no appeals, no juries, the death sentence at dawn and internment of suspects without a right to trial.

These have been tried and abused in various countries with horrific consequences for the innocent.

_________________________________________________________________

Sorry here we are in 2008, we are one of the only sports in this country that does not have the right of redress, Complaints and Standards board.

What right of appeal do we have at the moment and don't say just Sports Ireland, how long are they in existence, how many cases have they heard, What knowledge do they have on firearms and firearms Law and gun clubs.

Would you consider the FCP with some powers to be Draconian. Note I based my Idea on the FCP.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

Sorry here we are in 2008, we are one of the only sports in this country that does not have the right of redress, Complaints and Standards board.

We are one of many sports. No sport in Ireland to my knowledge has an independent complaints and standards board, none.

What right of appeal do we have at the moment and don't say just Sports Ireland, how long are they in existence, how many cases have they heard, What knowledge do they have on firearms and firearms Law and gun clubs.

Mick, we are supposed to self-regulate, we are supposed to set ourselves up to protect our members and the public. If there have been failures in this respect, then everyone involved is responsible for allowing such a situation to develop.

Would you consider the FCP with some powers to be Draconian. Note I based my Idea on the FCP.

The FCP is purely consultative, it has no pwers whatsoever. The powers you were talking about were absolute and involved multiple branches of government; far greater than CAB!

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Sorry here we are in 2008, we are one of the only sports in this country that does not have the right of redress, Complaints and Standards board.
What right of appeal do we have at the moment and don't say just Sports Ireland, how long are they in existence, how many cases have they heard, What knowledge do they have on firearms and firearms Law and gun clubs.

I wouldn't be so hard on Just Sports Ireland, they're the best solution available - and they're tied right back up the chain to the Court of Sport in switzerland. Yes, the NGBs and clubs must adjust their rules to bring in JSI, but only a fool wouldn't, given the size of the court bills in other sporting bodies.

Would you consider the FCP with some powers to be Draconian. Note I based my Idea on the FCP.

Yes, I would.
The problem is twofold - first, we've accepted for years the practise of NGBs being unincorporated bodies (clubs, in essence) which are beholden in law to noone. Sure, you can exert influence through withholding funding, but if the club tells you to go jump and finds its money elsewhere, there's nothing you can do - you cannot compel a club to do a certain thing in this country. It is not the same with an incorporated body (eg, the NRAI and the NTSA, both forms of limited companies) which would be bindable by the courts if it ever went off the rails.

Second, average shooters just don't care about the "politics" of the sport. They should - but most of the time they seem to either think that it doesn't affect them, or they have no say in it, or they just plain don't know because we've let NGBs run sports without any form of reporting to their members for years. Recently, we've seen changes in this area, and it's been good to see - but we've a ways to come yet.

Thing is, if you introduce a single body that governs all shooting in Ireland and has the kind of powers you're talking about, you would have to make all manner of serious changes to the law that would affect every other sport in the country - and frankly, even if you could do that (and I think they'd never let you), you'll never find even one person you could trust with that much power.

Better to take over your NGB, make it into an incorporated body, tie them into the JSI initiative, set up your procedures to be as objective and impersonal as possible (like the NTSA's selection procedure for example) and then just let folks get on with running them.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

I wouldn't be so hard on Just Sports Ireland, they're the best solution available - and they're tied right back up the chain to the Court of Sport in switzerland. Yes, the NGBs and clubs must adjust their rules to bring in JSI, but only a fool wouldn't, given the size of the court bills in other sporting bodies. (Sparks please explain how this can be done, also court bills, for what)

Yes, I would.
The problem is twofold - first, we've accepted for years the practise of NGBs being unincorporated bodies (clubs, in essence) (Explain please what the definition is of an NGB)


Second, average shooters just don't care about the "politics" of the sport.
(Unfortunitly your right there)

They should - but most of the time they seem to either think that it doesn't affect them, or they have no say in it, or they just plain don't know because we've let NGBs run sports without any form of reporting to their members for years. Recently, we've seen changes in this area, and it's been good to see - but we've a ways to come yet.(Again your correct here)

Thing is, if you introduce a single body that governs all shooting in Ireland and has the kind of powers you're talking about, you would have to make all manner of serious changes to the law that would affect every other sport in the country - and frankly, even if you could do that (and I think they'd never let you),

you'll never find even one person you could trust with that much power.
(This is a serious claim to make especially when we are talking about shooting sport not golf clubs, I can name a lot of honest people within the sport I would totally trust with running our sport also for far to long the same people have been allowed to run the sport)


Better to take over your NGB, make it into an incorporated body, tie them into the JSI initiative, set up your procedures to be as objective and impersonal as possible (like the NTSA's selection procedure for example) and then just let folks get on with running them.

(Take over your NGB? Please explain how this can be done democratically)


Sikamick

Sparks

Sparks please explain how this can be done, also court bills, for what

It'll vary from group to group Sika (and JSI would advise you on how to integrate them into your rules), but basicly you just state in your rules that any member, as a condition of their membership, agrees to JSI being the final arbitration body in a dispute.
If, after that someone refused to acknowlege JSI, they're no longer a member.

(Explain please what the definition is of an NGB)

A National Governing Body? Pretty much what it says on the tin, really. The NTSA, the ICPSA, the NRAI, the NASRPC, the NSAI, the VCRAI, they'd count as NGBs. Not sure how the NARGC gets counted, or if they're in a class of their own.
Many of these (the NTSA, the ICPSA, the NRAI) are limited companies (no shares, limited by guarantee - it's a common form of limited company used by sports bodies). Some of these aren't. Personally, I think that an incorporated body is a better choice from the point of view of the members.

(This is a serious claim to make especially when we are talking about shooting sport not golf clubs, I can name a lot of honest people within the sport I would totally trust with running our sport also for far to long the same people have been allowed to run the sport

I couldn't. Not in the sport and not outside it either. The thing is, what you're talking about is a benevolent dictatorship. And I know no-one who could occupy that kind of role and represent all sports equally. In fact, the only folks I know of who've claimed to be able to do so are the kind of folks you wouldn't want within a mile of the actual role.

And while I love the idea of fresh blood on the committees and actually doing the work, the 2% rule has been bloody hard to overcome, because folks see this stuff as being either (a) thankless, (b) hard work, or (c) politics. (They're not right of course, it's not any one of them, it's all three at once).

Take over your NGB? Please explain how this can be done democratically)

Show up for the AGM with more members than anyone else, elect your people as officers to the committee/board/whatever, then pass motions to enact the changeover.
Easily done if the bulk of people want the change.

Sikamick

Quote Sparks:It'll vary from group to group Sika (and JSI would advise you on how to integrate them into your rules), but basicly you just state in your rules that any member, as a condition of their membership, agrees to JSI being the final arbitration body in a dispute.
If, after that someone refused to acknowlege JSI, they're no longer a member.

___________________________________________________________________

I have contacted JSI and as said both parties in a dispute would have to agree to arbitration.

They (JSI) are having a seminar later this year which DTSC and VCRAI members will attend and after speaking to JSI, I think it is the right way to go. It will be good for the shooting sports if all become involved.


Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

I have contacted JSI and as said both parties in a dispute would have to agree to arbitration.

Yup. But if you write JSI into your rules as a condition of membership, then someone either agrees to arbitration under JSI or they're not a member. If they agree to JSI arbitration of a dispute, you go to the JSI. If they don't agree, then you have their signature on a piece of paper saying that if they don't agree to JSI arbitration in a dispute, they're no longer a member. Either way, problem solved.

They (JSI) are having a seminar later this year which DTSC will attend and after speaking to them I think it is the right way to go. It will be good for the shooting sports if all become involved.

Yup. I know the NTSA was all for the idea when JSI was introduced, and so far as I know the ICPSA feel the same way.