Question on Section 47 Agreement

Mallini

Hi All,

I'm coming to the end of the planning process for a house on family land. Limerick Co Co want my parents (the landowners) to enter into a Section 47 Agreement regarding the non-development of lands with road frontage. My parents would not see themselves selling any sites to anybody outside the family. I have a brother and sister who may want to look for planning permission on this land in the future so is it possible to put a condition in the Section 47 Agreement that other family members would not be affected by this agreement ?? I feel unless we sign this agreement then my own planning may be refused !!!! Has anybody been in a similar situation ??

Thanks,
Mallini

RKQ

It was used widely in this county afew years ago, not so much now.

Section 47 Agreement is a legal agreement which the Council will use to inhibit or slow development in a certain area, which may becoming over developed. The landowner agrees to "freeze" the land / portion of land, for a period of time, so it can't be sold for that peroid.

It is normally for 5 or 7 years. Would this time limit affect your siblings?
It may be possible to negiotatiate a 3 year term.

Mallini

Hi RKQ,

Thanks for your reply. 3 years mightn't be too bad. I guess I just wanted to know if the council are open to discussion on the terms of the agreement. I hope they are !!

Mallini

RKQ

No problem Mallini.
I'm talking about Section 47 for Landowners. Its rarely used here now.

Every applicant usually has to sign a Section 47 Agreement, not to sell the house within 5 or 7 years. (Thought I have seen this removed in circumstances where people were forced to move by job, unemployment etc.)

I would sign the agreement to get planning permission and live on my family land. As the economy changes, so will the importance of these agreements. It things turn really bad the Councils might have a huge problem enforcing the agreement. The Council is open to removing the agreement in certain circumstances.

muffler

Mallini wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm coming to the end of the planning process for a house on family land. Limerick Co Co want my parents (the landowners) to enter into a Section 47 Agreement regarding the non-development of lands with road frontage. My parents would not see themselves selling any sites to anybody outside the family. I have a brother and sister who may want to look for planning permission on this land in the future so is it possible to put a condition in the Section 47 Agreement that other family members would not be affected by this agreement ?? I feel unless we sign this agreement then my own planning may be refused !!!! Has anybody been in a similar situation ??

Thanks,
Mallini

I would ask for a meeting with the planners to discuss this. Policies vary from county to county but in Donegal you would be asked to enter into a section 47 in respect of your new house whereby you would not sell it for a period of 7 years although there are a couple of get out clauses depending on individual circumstances. if it is a family farm then there most likely a section in the county development plan to encourage members of the farming community to remain on the family lands - most PA's would have that in their plan.

However if there has been no widespread development of sites on the overall lands then I dont see how or why your parents would be brought into the equation. Have they sold or developed other sites in the past? That question does need answered as it would give a clearer picture of your situation.

Im not sure if this is even the right section as it was always a section 38 that was used to sterilise the lands in the past.

Mallini

Cheers for the replies. The land in question is approx. 8 acres and is the only land owned by my family. Access to my site is via a "substandard" council road but this issue was sorted at my pre-planning meeting. There hasn't been any sites sold by my family before and this is the first house to be built on this land. My nearest neighbour will be about 300m away. I have a call into the local authority to see exactly what the situation is but it seems to me that the planner is really scraping the ar5e of the barrell with this. It's definitely a Section 47 agreement they want my parents to sign to sterilise the rest of the land in their ownership. I feel the council are perhaps a little premature in this request. Would it be a bad idea to fight the council on this ??

stackerman

If the site you are building on has (and I hope it has, for stamp duty etc) already been transfred into your name then there is little the council can do. When I went for planning the council tried the same with me. My reply was that the remaining land was not mine and so I had no control over same. That said I had the site transfered 7/8 years before to save on costs, so there was a history there.

Mallini

Hi Kevin,

The site is from my parents to me so I will be exempt from stamp duty:
"The transfer of a site from a parent to child is exempt from stamp duty where the site transfer is for the purpose of constructing a house which will be the child’s main residence. Under the Finance Act 2008, the threshold for the site value in relation to this relief has been increased from €254,000 to €500,000 for instruments executed on or after 5 December 2007. The area of the site must be less than .4047 hectare (1 acre) exclusive of the area occupied by the house itself".
I was in touch with my solicitor and also the council in relation to the whole Section 47 issue. My solicitor warned us not to sign the agreement but formally reply to their request stating that no sites have been sold previously and that if the landowner is to sign the agreement that a condition be included to exempt family members. I passed this by the council but they didn't say yes or no. I'll formally reply next week so fingers crossed !!!!!

muffler

Let us know how you get on with it.

GenuineFan

My son has applied for planning permission. The council have looked for further information. He had a meeting with the council and they mentioned a Section 47 on an adjoining piece of land. This adjoining piece of land is in my name and is way too small to build a house on. It does have road frontage but the land at the rear is owned by a farmer and has nothing to do with us. The piece of land we own is long and narrow with road frontage. My son had to buy a piece of land of the farmer in order to make a site. Can the Council ask us to sign a Section 47 on a small piece of land that nobody can build on (because it is too small)?

Thanks.

sydthebeat

GenuineFan wrote: »

My son has applied for planning permission. The council have looked for further information. He had a meeting with the council and they mentioned a Section 47 on an adjoining piece of land. This adjoining piece of land is in my name and is way too small to build a house on. It does have road frontage but the land at the rear is owned by a farmer and has nothing to do with us. The piece of land we own is long and narrow with road frontage. My son had to buy a piece of land of the farmer in order to make a site. Can the Council ask us to sign a Section 47 on a small piece of land that nobody can build on (because it is too small)?

Thanks.

if nobody can build on it because its too small, then you should have no problem signing a section 47 if it will help your sons application ??

or am i missing something......

GenuineFan

We think because my son bought a piece of land off the farmer that the council think we will give the farmer the piece and then he would have road frontage to his land.

lignum

[QUOTE=The site is from my parents to me so I will be exempt from stamp duty:
![/QUOTE]

I think this has changed.
Consanguinity relief no longer applies to conveyances or transfers, whether on sale or by gift, of residential property to related persons executed on or after 8/12/2010.

sydthebeat

GenuineFan wrote: »

We think because my son bought a piece of land off the farmer that the council think we will give the farmer the piece and then he would have road frontage to his land.

to answer your first question... yes, the council have the right to ask you to sign a section 47.

to be honest it isnt used very much these days as its a pretty blunt instrument used to dampen development.

you could request that members of your immediate family would not be restricted from development on these lands as a condition of the section 47.

by the way... your very lucky to get a meeting with the planner while a "live" application is on going. The usually wouldnt even take a phone call on it.

Angry bird

So a further information request? I'd follow the advise of your solicitor, point out its not your land and in no position to dictate to siblings re their future planning intentions.

sydthebeat

Angry bird wrote: »

So a further information request? I'd follow the advise of your solicitor, point out its not your land and in no position to dictate to siblings re their future planning intentions.

did you read the date of the post youre replying to??

GenuineFan

There isn't enough land to build another house and we don't have any more immediate family, just my son. There wasn't enough for him, he had to buy a small piece and go back. When his site is squared off, there is a long narrow piece with road frontage.

GenuineFan

Also, the planner has been very co-operative and will speak to us again at the end of the week. No complaints there.